The number of teachers leaving Harford County Public Schools jumped 36% over the past three years, with some citing salary as the reason, according to preliminary data provided to the school board last week by the school system’s director of human resources.
Responding to questions from Harford County Board of Education members at their July 21st meeting, Jean Mantegna, assistant superintendent for human resources, said that she had begun reviewing data on departing teachers over the past three years, and the trend is up. “Our numbers of teachers separated, the number is rising,” she said. In the 2010-11 year, 182 teachers left the system, Mantegna said, compared to 248 thus far in the 2013-14 year ending on September 30, 2014.
The difference of 66 teachers equates to an increase of 36%.
Among those leaving the system, Mantegna said that she believed retirements were trending upward, along with the number of departing teachers with 7 – 10 years of experience.
The 248 departures so far this year represent 8% of the 2941 teachers employed at the start of the 2013-14 school year, according to information later provided by Jillian Lader, HCPS manager of communications.
Among those who chose to take an exit survey so far this year, 11% cited salary as their primary reason for leaving, Mantegna said. The voluntary exit survey also includes the primary reasons of retirement, a job in another school system, moving out of state, or personal issues, with salary being added for the first time this year, she said.
This was also a year marked by a series of teacher protests over salaries, culminating in a union-led “March for Education” through Bel Air in April. Union president Ryan Burbey warned at the time that teachers were leaving “in droves” due to a lack of salary increases in the past several years.
Asked in a phone interview Tuesday why only 11% cited salaries as their reason for leaving, Burbey questioned how many chose to answer the exit survey. “The vast majority of people leaving Harford County Public Schools want to put it in the rear view mirror, “he said. He also noted that the survey included an option for going to another school system, which could be due to salary, adding that some teachers worry their survey comments may follow them to their next job.
Burbey also said he expected “many more” separations in subsequent reports.
Below are the most recent monthly personnel reports for April, May and June, which include the names, positions, and length of service for departing employees. Reports for April and May were not previously published by HCPS, but were provided to The Dagger upon request. This year’s annual report on personnel is expected sometime after September 30, 2014.
It’s Jesse Bane’s fault.
Don’t be silly. This isn’t Bane’s fault. But if it was, we would have to figure out what the truth of the matter might be!
It’s Ryan Burney fault
Let’s see, 25 left because of money? Hardly worth mentioning.
Believe everything you read…LOL. Yea, 25 left cause of money. Everyone else left cause……eh……..um……. MONEY. These surveys are a joke. Are you that stupid? Everyone is leaving because of MONEY. LOL. OMG.
Exit surveys are usually the best barometer of an organization’s malcontents. Besides leaving for money, people also depart due to changes in their family situation, or following a spouse’s move to a new job.
SmartTeachers,
No, I don’t believe everything I read, like your post. I will add it to the list, let’s see: ‘global warming’ – Oh Wait! Not getting warm – change some model numbers and correct the slogan ‘climate change’. The largest group in the country at ignoring information they don’t like are the teachers, so why not ignore this.
Then we can toss in the ‘stupid’ word to make sure that folks know that anything other than our collectivist crap lacks intelligence. When you sink to that everyone reading it knows that you got burned by the report.
You will continue to believe whatever makes you feel better at night. I have taken these surveys, and know many colleagues who have taken them as well. If you guys think people are leaving harco cause their spouses got another job or a “change in family situation”..(yea…wtf?) then you are more ignorant than your posts suggest you are.
SmartTeachers:
You’ve never known a teacher to quit and become a stay-at-home parent?
The salary situation is not Ryan’s fault. He has worked tirelessly for the benefit of the teachers. If Baltimore and Cecil County can afford to pay their teachers more, then why should teachers stay in Harford County. What do people expect us to do? We have to pay our bills to pay too!
We need the help of our elected officials to get this situation straightened out! All they seem to want to do is pass the buck!
Peg, it was sarcasm.
When my Jeep gets stuck in the mud, it works tirelessly to spin the tires, but that doesn’t mean it changes the situation…
Peg,
The state rigged wealth formula subsidizes Baltimore County. Harford County get nothing, nadda – zippity-do-da. Claw some money from the state.
“Among those who chose to take an exit survey so far this year, 11% cited salary as their primary reason for leaving”….HAHAHAHAHHAH. A total lie 100%. I know TONS of teachers that have left and this IS the primary reason. Harco has become a total joke. Teachers are still planning their escape as we type on this POS MB and it won’t stop. It’s shame, but it’s reality. The $$$ won’t ever come back and the word is out. Why stay in a county that won’t honor the contract when all surrounding ones do. Smart move folks! The time is now to get out.
Smarty pants,
You know ‘TONS’ of teachers – all the big ones with tonnage eh? Deserved more money because they figured they were worth their weight in unpaid steps perhaps? Or were they just too big to ride to school in their sedan chairs? Maybe you need to change the name of that newly formed group to ‘Tons of Girls Rule the Nation’.
“Two thousand pounds for one loads of fun – that’s my little honey bun.” – apologies to “South Pacific”
Buffoon Bunk -your borrowed name is old news showing your lack of original thought. I like the new ones. Different names – same foul tripe.
Well, if you ask me. Nevermind. I’m such a d-bag.
No hots for Teacher,
Well! How dare you assail my name changing anonymousness, anonymously in an anonymous forum. That violates the rules of anonymity – up with which the nonamonymous will not put.
Banana Bunch,
Your comments don’t seem to be too popular on this board. Maybe you should get the hint. However, being the pompous, conceited, vainglorious bumpkin is a niche that you and your aka personas fill quite well.
I wouldn’t go too much by the number who said they were leaving because of the money. Most people who leave for better money aren’t going to officially say so to the school system. Most of them aren’t even filling out the questionnaires. They have gotten to the point where they don’t trust upper echelons not to try to screw them and aren’t telling them anything.
I know 3 science teachers who left last year and 5 more this year. All but one were very good at their job. The other one was good, but not excellent. They all went to new teaching positions where they are making more money. One girl even went to Baltimore City and is making more money! She said the city needs help. She’s nuts! I used to teach here in Harco, and left at the end of last year. I left for my health and sanity . . . . and for the money. I could have crossed the river to that backwater we call Cecil County and made 6 thousand dollars more per year! It isn’t hard to do as every district is hiring. Now that I am no longer subjecting myself to that profession, I am a new person! The stress is gone and I have avoided the stress related illnesses that several of my former colleagues are suffering. I have a few more coins jingling in my pocket too! (actually, a lot more!) I really do miss teaching the kids because I know I was getting through to them and their lives will be better for it. I miss seeing my co-workers every day. I don’t miss the long nights, or the seemingly endless continuing education and mind numbing in-house training. I really don’t miss the school system and the political nonsense that goes with it! In my years of teaching I never took more than 2 weeks vacation, so I don’t mind working all year. I have to sometimes drive to work in the snow – – Big deal!
The Dagger helped me to make the decision to get out of teaching and better my lot in life, and for that I owe the contributors here a debt of gratitude. A few years ago I tripped over the Dagger in a Google search. I started reading most of the articles and noted that many folks here do love a good argument! Being an anonymous forum, that is to be expected. Certainly many here take some wild positions just to get a rise out of other readers. It amused me. I did note that the articles that brought the most vehemence out of posters were the education articles. Please don’t think you drove me out. (I don’t owe you THAT much gratitude) I realized that I just didn’t have the sense of humor to do the job well for 20 more years. One day near the end of the year, I read a post saying that if you don’t like the pay and conditions, get out and you’ll be replaced with someone else sucking off of the system. The poster also said that I wouldn’t like the “real world”, but I knew better, having been there before. So I decided that I was going to go to the “real world,” and the Flat Earther’s could go to teach their own kids. I suffered horribly at the beach for a week while I updated my resume and found a very nice job within the month. To my friends who are still teaching, I have to say, if you need more money, get out now! That is especially for Science and Math teachers. You will love the “real world,” and can double your income within 2 years! Folks in the humanities will have a bit harder of a time, so use the school system to help you get an MBA. They will give you tuition assistance because you can use it to teach business classes. Then you get out too.
“for Science and Math teachers. You will love the “real world,” and can double your income within 2 years!” – the shit is seeping out of the side of your bag. You should be ashamed of yourself for lying to the county teachers who are naive enough to believe you. There are not a plethora of private sector jobs out there with compensation packages of 160K that you can earn in the first two years – and any that do exist demand 5 – 10 years experience in the private sector.
When you tossed out the ‘Flat Earther’ epithet, I knew you were a nutter.
Oh, MBA’s are a dime a dozen unless they are from Harvard or Wharton.
I think perhaps that Legare was talking to the rather large number of HCPS teachers who are stuck on $42,000 for the fourth year in a row and not the $80,000 per year teacher (assuming there even are any classroom teachers making that much). You should check your numbers and your attitude before you start leaking yourself.
Concerned,
Both of you cannot hide behind the dusty cloud of ignorance you kick up for unwashed forum readers – or for the students you keep in the dark:
The operate phrase is compensation package. Teachers get a pension and Cadillac medical equal to 20k per year.
40k + 20 = 60k x 2 = 120K
Only 13% of the private sector offers a pension and virtually none of them offer the quality medical that you receive. This is old news and the numbers are easily viewed online. There is 10k worth of pension and 10k worth of medical factored into each of the teacher’s compensation. Try going into the private sector for that.
You try to cloak your benefits in some shroud of poverty. No wonder folks have no sympathy for you. Maybe if the test scores were to reach the digit level of an air conditioned room, or our kids stopped coming home quoting Al carbon-tax Gore, then more rewards would follow.
My wife’s state pickup has never been 10 k
That would be triple my wife’s salary.
Cdev,
Look, the value of the pension is its total equity value based upon the years paid out. Teachers do not save 100% of their pension each year – the state contributes. The value of the pension, as a minimum is 10k per year, for each year worked. If all a teacher got back in a pension is what they put in they would quickly run out of money when they retired. Then look at the value of the medical plan. For a family it is more than 10k per year. The state pays the bulk of the premium. You cannot get those benefits in the private sector.
Teachers get 20k per year in benefits that virtually all private sector workers do not get. The average teacher salary in Harford County is 49k. So, the compensation package is almost 70k per year.
The state and local pension contribution for the average teacher is not 10k the box on her w-2 where you find that info has never been that much.
Burbey Bunch, I never meant to imply that I was making 6 figures, and certainty not 160K That was my fault, I should have been more clear. No, I only worked there for less than 10 years and didn’t have any increase for 5 of them. So that put me at less than 50K. You also need to consider that the state requires that you get your masters within 10 years of hire. I chose to stick with science courses rather than take education courses for the second degree. I figured that if teaching didn’t work out it would be better to have more science than have an extra teaching degree. The courses are a lot harder, but much more useful. Also, you can’t believe how awful teaching courses are. If you are old enough to do it for free, go to HCC and audit one for a few days. You will see real quickly why most of us Science and math people chose to stick with our majors. Also, most of us chose our undergraduate majors based on our real interests. You are certainly correct in your statement that 160K jobs don’t grow on trees! That said, however the sciences do pay quite well as long as you manage to stay out of things like biology labs. Nurses come out of school with bachelors degrees and walk right into 65K jobs in hospitals. In some medical areas, kids with degrees in respiratory therapy tech and radiology tech make even more than that, and some of the certification certificates are 2 and 3 year gigs! 3 or 4 years ago as part of in house training, about 30 of us science teachers were taken to a private science company just outside APG. The idea was for us to make contacts so that we could take students there on field trips. I asked the fellow leading the tour what range of salaries one could expect there. I almost dropped my teeth when he told me 75 to 80K for a bachelors degree! TO START!
My son and daughter both have science degrees and both are working on their masters degree. They work at two different companies in the northern Baltimore County and both are making very close to 100K with their bonuses. They started at around 60K , but every year they have gotten substantial pay raises and bonuses. True, there are down sides. They only get 3 weeks vacation, but they get comp time for the long days and occasional 6 day weeks. It adds up. Also, they get a certain amount of money towards health insurance, and they pay the rest – – Just like teachers, except they have a larger choice of companies and they have to pay about twice as much as teachers for the same plan and company. BTW, they both chose the same plan my wife and I have. It isn’t a Cadillac like the good old days. They both have company subsidized life insurance also. Both have 401K programs that the company matches up to a certain percentage. I am not doing quite as well as they are even with more education, but then again, I have a lot less experience with my company. With my matching 401K they don’t match as much yet, but it is a little higher every year. One of the reasons I didn’t mention for leaving teaching was when you don’t get raises, your pension doesn’t grow either. Who knows when teachers will get a raise? I used the total averaged increases since I started and figured that after 30 years I would get 22K a year for the rest of my life. I’d be in my upper 70’s too if I live that long. So I stand my my statement that math and science teachers, assuming they are smart and willing to work hard can nearly double their income if they teach in Harford county. people with more years in teaching would have to be more careful because they got their steps before the freeze. They also have a hell of a lot better pension plan than the new teachers
You are also quite correct that MBAs are a dime a dozen. Most are easy to get too, but a lot of companies won’t hire you if you don’t have one. Perhaps the thinking is, Everyone else has one, why don’t you. A friend of mine with a BS in Chemistry, PHD in genetics and 4 years of post Doc in Molecular Biology at Hopkins had his job phased out. He had about 15 years experience, but it was in a very specialized field. It took him over a year to find something that suited him. At the end of his interview, the potential employer said you have everything I need to hire you today except a MBA. That is why I suggested an MBA for folks with the more common degrees. It’s funny, when I was a kid, the smart kids were forced to take science courses in high school. Those deemed to be not so smart were forced to take business classes. Now the kids who took the business classes have MBAs and are telling the PHDs in science what to do. Odd the little twists life can take!
Now about the other things you wrote, Where did you get the idea that I have a leaking colostomy bag? My innards are just fine thanks, just had them checked again recently. I gather from your reaction to my flat earther’s quip and your return fire Al Gore quip and I loved this one – – –
“cluster of ex-edu-jerks, claiming to live high-on-the-hog with their new plastic banana six-figure salaries.” That You figure me to also be a libtard. I certainly hope not, Burbey! In most ways I am quite conservative. In some ways I am so far right that I look left toward the Teabag folks and think, “Damn liberals!” Not all teachers are liberal just like not all rich people are conservative..I do have some liberal leanings too, but not generally so much that you would notice.. So my flat earthers quip had nothing to do with the flat earth society. I was actually referring to people who make a decision like ALL teachers are money grubbers or liberals or sucking off the government teat, or too stupid to get another job. and stick to that belief no matter what. People who refuse to accept anything that doesn’t fit into their little world. Honestly, from the few posts I’ve seen here, I can’t make that conclusion about you as yet. All I can tell so far is that you don’t seem to like me much and you think I’m a liar. Hey, I’m cool with that. we’ve never even met. If we knew each other, that would be a different matter. You know you though, and I don’t. if those particular shoes fit, put them on lace her up and wear them proudly. This is America, Burbey and that is you right.
Legare/Cdev,
There is dust getting kicked up here in what I perceive as an attempt to equate the value of a 401k with a teacher’s pension. Usually, it’s being done by presenting some ideal 401k scenario with all the potential pitfalls of a state pension. It is useless to get lost in all of the minutia, some of which is only fairly accurate – and speculative regarding somewhere we supposedly know someone who did this or that.
A teacher’s pension is based on the final highest earning salary and the payout is basis a formula. It is not the aggregate of a teacher’s contributions. That means that the teacher’s pensions are not contribution based – they make a contribution but they are not contribution based they are formulaic.
The value of a pension is the payout divided by the years paid in. An example would be if a teacher is paid 30k per year pension and lives for 25 years, you would divide the total dollars paid by the number of years worked and this would determine the value. Even if you were to drop the pension amount to 25k, there is no way a teacher’s contribution supports that kind of payout – or that kind of payout with a small matching fund as would a 401k.
Once again, the value of a teacher’s compensation package, pension plus medical, is easily 20k per year. That means this is earned value above any contribution they make in premiums or pension contribution.
Hey! Thumb down this one… means you read it and were confronted with the truth – which is all one ever wants in a forum.
What is that you wrote? You are correct – I am confronted with the truth. Truth is it kind of has a pablum quality to it. Keep working on it.
Of course it’s about the money. All surrounding districts offer an immediate raise of several thousand dollars for any HCPS teacher who wants to jump ship.
Those of you with a “don’t let the door hit you in the butt” mentality are getting your wish. But what about the kids? At this late date, with want ads going out via newspapers, you are going to get what is leftover from the hiring pool. All of the top candidates are gone. What you will get now is the bottom of the barrel. Way to go Harford County. The sinking ship keeps on sinking.
If a bottom-of-the-barrel teacher can still make passing test scores, does it matter?
It matters to me, yes. But if that is the best that you want for your child, more power to you.
Greg, I agree.
It doesn’t matter to him because he has no kids in the school system. It’s a classic example of “if it doesn’t affect me personally then it doesn’t exist” mentality. It’s almost as good for society as the rampant NIMBY mentality we have here.
Concerned Teacher:
I wish I didn’t have kids in HCPS right now, I’m tired of dealing with pissy teachers who won’t return phone calls or emails, but I’d rather pay for college than K-12. At least I have the flexibilty to show up at the school and discuss things face to face in the principal’s office whenever I need to, usually they’re still at the school even if my kids’ teachers ran for their cars before the busses were even out of sight.
I’d like to think my kids are learning more outside of school than inside. How many elementary school kids can tell the difference between a car’s alternator, starter, and AC compressor (and describe what each one does), or can spot the constellations of the Zodiac and find Polaris without assistance? Mine can.
Yea…smart Kharn. That’s what we want. Just passing. HEY….they all passed with 60s. Great job!
What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class from UMD Medical School? Doctor.
And do you pick that last Dr to operate on your daughter or someone who finished higher than him?
Gerry,
Our student’s test scores have been dropping in the county. Maybe the bad ones were driven out – after all, you can’t fire any of them. And, by what metric can you determine that the new inexperienced teachers will not be better? Hey, everybody is new to Common Core. At least the new teachers are not instant panhandlers for lucre.
How come other school districts have so many vacancies?
I see they are also shorthanded in the cafeterias. CMW has the posting right on their electronic bulletin board out front: Cafeteria workers needed.
Wow. If you are a teacher and reference your fellow “co workers” as ‘bottom of the barrel.’ We certainly don’t need your disparaging character teaching children a dn thing. Good riddance.
Please. I’m all “ears.” What is defined as bottom of the barrel? As long as the teacher does good enough to continue employment, test scores, then, what?
I am not a teacher. I am a concerned parent that wants my child to receive a quality education by quality instructors. Not a teacher that was passed over by every single district and are in the “what’s left” category. If you think that HCPS is everyone’s first choice, you need to stop living in the 1990s.
If students pass, and test scores are good, then??? Teachers already are or were ,”work to rule. ” I need help understanding the smoking mirror in defining quality.
Are you a Human Resource employee at HCPS, how do you know what quality of applicants they receive?
There are lots of school districts that aren’t everyone’s “First choice.”
No, I am sure you must be right. Every great applicant waited until 2.5 weeks before the end of the school year, holding out for Harford County. Your screename says much about you.
He is just angry that he got the short straw.
An analysis of just three years is terrible. That is only 3 data points!!!! What idiot tries to make a trend analysis from just three data points when they should be alble to get many more. Complete misuse of statistics.
Look at Baltimore County they have the same problem but pay more…
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2014-06-04/news/bs-md-teacher-retirements-20140604_1_baltimore-county-cheryl-bost-teachers
I don’t deny the fact the County doesn’t pay well.
The whole in the closet fear mongering has me confused. Its like no other job. People quit and new people come.
Until county wide scholastic performance drops, then there is no basis of saying nonsense.
I was worried about moving to a beautiful city in Florida with schools that are comparable to the best in Harford County. After reading the comments here, I have absolutely NO DOUBT that my eighth grader will be just fine! I have mixed feelings about the way Harford County has handled, or should I say, not handled paying our teachers based on contractual obligations. I’m not a fan of unions. But, if a legally binding instrument states that the contractees are to receive raises, why hasn’t this been handled in a legal forum and remedied? Five years is a long time to NOT receive ANY pay increase. I also noticed from the above list(s) showing the schools from which many of the newer teachers are leaving, those schools are really difficult to work. In summary, it looks like the students enrolled in Harford County Public Schools are in for a roller coaster ride this year. Between disgruntled teachers and Common Core…..parents had better pay real close attention to what the heck is going on.
K:
“But, if a legally binding instrument states that the contractees are to receive raises, why hasn’t this been handled in a legal forum and remedied?”
Because HCEA agreed to contracts with “steps are subject to funds being available” language, and only negotiates with HCPS when HCC controls the money.
See COMAR 6-408.1
HCEA had no means to force HCPS to honor the salary scale. HCEA negotiated contingencies so that its members would not be left without any benefit should the county council fail to approve sufficient funding.
This article is meant to indemnify school systems and counties in case of a crisis. It has been used in Harford County to freeze teachers pay and cheat them out of their contractual rights.
It is a complete failure of county leadership that has left us in the situation which all the citizens of Harford County now find ourselves. By failing to properly fund our schools our county council and county executive have failed our teachers, our students and ultimately our entire community. Our children’s futures and our county’s economic security are closely tied to the quality of our schools.
Add a few more reasons: An evaluation process that has gotten out of hand! Teachers must prepare extensive documentation prior to evaluation only to have to deal with an antagonistic Instructional Facilitator that is trying to justify their existence and a principal who may or may not have a clue and may or may not be able to control the IF. Add to that preparing their SLO (Student Learning Objectives – recent requirements) when each principal has a different take on how it should read. Mature principals who have great leadership skills and nurture and support their teachers are becoming more difficult to find. With confusing online requirements increasing, appreciation and support from school administration decreasing, actual teaching time decreasing, pay decreasing, public respect on the decline (see the comments on this sight), it is easy to see why teachers are heading for the hills…especially the ones that care and make it their life purpose to develop excellence in their students.
“antagonistic Instructional Facilitator” – Except in the real world you are judged by your boss everyday. Or, try chasing volume and profit numbers weekly – then maybe get tossed out on your ass at the end of the quarter. If teachers want to be professions, how about they occasionally get judged by one.
BB – What “real world” is this? I would guess for you that it would be the angry old guys world. Perhaps, the world where you get to post here on company time. If you are too old to work, I would hope that you could find some better use of your retirement time than posting on here. Remember your death clock is ticking away.
Tic,
I know you can’t stand reading something other than your cluster of ex-edu-jerks, claiming to live high-on-the-hog with their new plastic banana six-figure salaries. Tough to be left behind. I guess you will take it out on the students as you always do. One thing is certain, you will never teach them anything, as proven by the test scores.
For people who only work less then 200 days a year, rarely work a full 5 day work week, have every imaginable holiday off, make up “inservice days” to have more time away from the students (and tenured teachers don’t bother to attend anyway) you all are sure one miserable bunch of people!!! Have you ever stopped to think that with exception of Craig cronies no county employee as seen a raise in 4 years?? Oh no we only are supposed to feel sorry for the TEACHERS! You chose your profession, if you don;t like it leave! And all this constant bitching from all of you is doing nothing to get the general public on your side. Most of us are doing with out a raise every year as well. Please come out into the private sector you will go running back to your teaching posts the first week you don’t have a federal holiday off, or god for bid even worse have to work on a snow day!!!
I can’t wait to see the whining when HCEA realizes they’ve been missing out on Columbus Day…
And Veterns day
Spoken like someone who has absolutely no clue about the teaching profession. While you are at it, could you enlighten us on your take on the medical profession and HVAC installation as well? You might sound just as intelligent.
Yes, this guy is uninformed. Other county employees don’t need to bitch. They have a me too clause that ensures that they get what teachers negotiate. They have it great! They take no heat, but reap the benefits.
Lets see. Brian (probably Kharn) comes to the dagger to post something with the hopes of getting some attention, angry replies and stirring up the pot. Nothing he said was original, just the typical “Real World” (I take 90 minute lunches) BS. So….Brian needs attention. Mommy and Daddy didn’t come to his little league games when he was younger or maybe they beat him. Who knows. Please, everyone reply to little Brian so he can feel good about himself. He is refreshing this site every 30 minutes so help him out.
Thank you
Your right I have no idea what being a teacher means. Oh…. wait a minuet I have had multiple family members that have taught in the HCPS system years ago most of them 30+ years. They all were laughing at you 15 years age when all the teachers were wining back then. They would be ashamed of how you all act today. Please yes tell me how uninformed I am. Fight for every single day off that you can!! Please extend the school year so you NEVER work a 5 day work week! Then cry my a damn river how under paid you are. I wish you all would leave the county my god talk about a bunch of cry babies, no wonder our schools are going down the drain, just look at the examples the students have.
If you say so. Guess we will all take your word for it.
guy is a bit mad. Rage much?
Talk about a cry baby. If you can’t take the heat, then see you later.
Poor baby. Someone disagrees with you and you get all bent out of shape. Maybe you can go upstairs from the basement and give mama a hug. And we are all quite sure that you are closely associated with educators with 30 + years experience. Anyone can say anything in an effort to bolster their flawed arguments. Maybe next, you can say that your great great great great grandfather created the concept of public education.
blah,
You all talk like you step out of ‘Blackhawk Down’ everyday – then when the test scores hit the street you dive under a rock. You pretend you don’t get benefits and God-forbid some admin were to ask you not to hand out voter registration forms to your senior class, along with the Brown for governor leaflet. Between whining, proselytizing and campaigning you obviously have no time to teach the freakin’ subject.
Hyperbole on purpose.
Wow, Brian! Considering all the spelling and grammatical errors you made, your former-teacher-family-members must be quite proud!
Can someone help me besides “thumbing me down”?
Hit reply and tell me what you define as ” quality” and what substantiates it from a defined “bottom of the barrel” teacher that will replace a “top of the barrel” teacher?
Each applicant must go through standards set by Human Resource Office at HCPS before they are hired.
I realize there are teachers who turn out to be shit bags, but that’s people in general.
Seems to me there is a faux fear of some type of weird stereotyping to me? Just because you think you are better than someone doesn’t make it so.
The whole idea that more money = better isn’t always true.
Its a never ending cycle, our money isn’t good enough here as it isn’t good enough somewhere else, where ever that may be. The wheel keeps turning.
-Knowledge of Content
-Able to differentiate instruction and take the time to do so
-Evaluate summative/formative assessments to make the proper changes in daily classroom life, not just assign a grade
-Ability and willingness to develop creative & effective lesson plans on a daily basis
-Develop healthy relationships with students
-Attending conferences & workshops to constantly evaluate plans and how to teach your content
just off the top of my head.
Didn’t ask for job duties, or above and beyond call of duty.
If HCPS hires you, you passed their hiring requirements.
Until the requirements go beyond the pay scale, or school performance plummets, its unlikely anything will be done.
Doom and gloom, Harford County School Performance is about as good as it gets.
Those aren’t job requirements…duties or requirements would be having a homeroom, getting your teaching schedule and teaching your content, arriving at 6:50 and leaving at 2:20, supervising the cafe. No where in my job description does it mention differentiated instruction. However, the better teachers will implement these strategies as they teach their classes. Not a requirement though. Developing positive relationships with students, not a duty. I know teachers who could care less about getting to know their students. They just come in a teach. Evaluating assessments to make changes which create a more successful classroom enviornment is not a requirement.
I suppose it’s the same as any profession. Why do people post online “who knows a good plummer or mechanic” when they can just look one up in the yellow pages or online. Cause some are better than others.
Would you play Joe Flacco or Tyrod Taylor every game (maybe not a good example) but the point is Joe played every game last year and Taylor didn’t. But they both played college football at a high level and “passed the requirements” and got drafted in the NFL, but one is just better than the other. Some teachers are just better than others even though all may be “qualified” to get hired. Hopefully through the interview process, those better teachers get identified and hired.
Would you rather thave 5 1st round draft picks or 5 7th round draft picks? All players will make it to the pros.
Some Ideas:
If you want to see teachers with those skills, adjust their pay based on those attributes rather than just seniority and education.
I don’t want that, nor did I imply that I wanted pay policies & procedures to change. Just answering a question that I thought was an obvious answer.
Hi Cowpie
To my mind the difference between a quality teacher and a bottom of the barrel teacher is something that would be hard to pick up during the hiring process. Just like any other job, you have those who will do whatever it takes to succeed, and you have coasters who just go through the motions. In teaching you are constantly building on what the student has already learned. In many science courses if they don’t understand an underlying principal taught at the beginning, they will struggle through the whole unit. A good teacher will be assessing each kid in some way every day, preferably with something that is written. Most teachers do that. The good ones will also analyze those assessments every night to be sure that the students learned the principles they will need for the next lesson. If they didn’t, you need to find a way to help them understand those principles and incorporate that into the next day’s lesson before trying to move on. Lesser teachers will do the assessments because they don’t want to get caught in a surprise observation without them, but they don’t take the time that night to analyze the results. It takes a bit of time to go through 100 to 130 sets of scribbled responses. Some weak teachers get to it eventually, while some just throw them away. Many teachers are fully planned for a week in advance. The good teachers will change those plans based on the results of their assessments. The bad ones don’t bother.
Think about teachers you had when you were in school. Some of them were able to break things down for you so you could understand them, some couldn’t, or just didn’t bother. I responded best to teachers who should have been comedians. They kept my attention and I learned in spite of myself. I still can remember the exact way I learned things from Bernie Walters in Biology over 30 years ago. Bad teachers are boring as church to a kid, and they zone out. Good teachers are very creative, and able to use everyday things that a student is familiar with to help them. For example, when it is cold out we rub our hands together. Even the slowest kid in the class has done that. I used to use it to introduce friction. I’d have them rub their hands together and ask what they feel. Then they would rub faster and see the difference. Then rub while pushing their hands harder together – – What 2 things do they notice. After explaining why those things happen, the kid understands friction. and use the same concept to help them see how volcanoes are formed by converging plates. A bad teacher would just have them read it out of the book. A good teacher is able to relate to the students. They remember what school was like for them as a kid. They understand where their students are coming from, and use it to help them want to learn. A bad teacher could care less. A good teacher learns from his mistakes. Bad teachers just go with the script. It is pretty easy to snow the folks in HR. They’ve never been a teacher. They are looking for the most popular buzzwords and jargon. They want to hear things like, “I want to give back,” “Children are our most important resource” and “I’ll do whatever it takes for the children” One of the few important things one learns in education courses is how to get a job teaching. As far as actually doing the job, the only course that that is worth it’s price is student teaching. Even then, until you are actually in your own classroom for a while. nobody can predict how you will do. They can’t tell if you will learn from your mistakes and grow into a good teacher. some people just don’t bother All they can tell is how well you know your subject area. That brings up another issue. Very often scheduling issues will have a teacher teaching outside of their field. A good teacher will learn that new area PDQ and be an expert on it by the end of the course. A bad one teaches the book. That works if you have a bunch of slow learners that don’t ever ask, Why . . . .?” It doesn’t play so well when you are doing your job and generating interest. If the kids think you don’t know what you are talking about, they will tune out real quick.
One poster further down said something about classes being staffed with long term subs. Well, that is already being done. The last year I taught, there were two long term subs within 100 feet of my room. They were nice folks, and both had a college degree and they really tried hard, but neither was teaching in their field. Neither was very good at maintaining discipline. They were in way over their heads. I saw in another of your posts where, “Harford performance is about as good as it gets.” I agree with you in some ways. I didn’t come across many bad teachers in my time there. Most of them are working hard at their craft. Our standardized scores are among the best in the country. On the other hand, The colleges make a large percentage of them take remediation courses before they can take regular college courses. I can’t remember the exact percentage, but 40% seems to stick in my mind. Businesses are also saying that when kids graduate, they don’t have the skills to put them right to work. So in that way, it’s not so good. Much of that problem is it what the MD Dept of Ed wants taught, but that’s a whole different nightmare. The big risk I see is in the public’s perception of our schools. Many folks see Edgewood High as a failing school. The Edgewood district used to stop at Singer road between Rt 924 and Rt 24, and I think it still does. Have a look at the housing developments on both sides of singer. The houses on the east are larger and nicer on the whole, but adjusted for their square footage, the ones on the west side are getting better prices. I’d hate to see the whole county’s home sales go the way of the route 40 corridor Sorry to be so long winded!
HCPS admits that they need to hire 100 teachers before the start of the school year. Just wait until all the last minute no shows of teachers that are not coming back, but haven’t told them yet. The start of this school year will be very interesting. Look for lots of ‘term-term’ subs as they figure out how to stop the crashing dam with Craig’s middle finger still stuck in the dike.
After looking at the personnel report for teachers who left the system as of June it is truly disappointing. To think that they have to replace that many teachers is beyond crazy and probably wont happen. Schools like Harford Tech is really surprising to me as well because they lost 11 teachers (especially trade teachers). And this is only the beginning. I expect the personnel report for teachers who left the system as of July to be the same size as above or maybe even more. Teachers are finally realizing better opportunities await.
Googling “turnover rate for public school teachers” finds our 8% is below the national average of 13.5%:
“Of the 3,380,300 full-time and part-time public school teachers who were teaching during the 2007–08 school year, 84.5 percent remained at the same school (“stayers”), 7.6 percent moved to a different school (“movers”), and 8.0 percent left the profession (“leavers”) during the following year.”
Pavel,
I guess our ‘bottom of the barrel’ is only two inches from the top.
Nice to see my entertainment factor has increased. I feel like a kid at Christmas in July. Almost all the cast of characters are home for the holidays. It reminds of Otter’s line from animal house.
There are HUNDREDS of young teachers that graduated from college last year all with student loans just dying to take a teachers job in Harford County and not bitch one bit about their salary.
So my words to you are “sha na na na, sha na na na, hey hey hey good bye”
It is called the free market pal and it is how the rest of the real world makes a living.
That’s assuming that those graduates are qualified for the job. There’s this notion by many non-teachers that the job is little more than glorified day care with summers free. Not even close. The issue of teachers “bitching” is about broken contracts, and increased costs passed on to the employee. Sure they could replace these experienced complainers with those with no experience at a cheaper wage but as it is in many jobs you have to make mistakes before you learn how to do the job properly. Those 1st years would also have to understand that the contractually negotiated wage scale which is published on the HCPS website is false. If they took that job there is also no guarantee of having it next year as those people are the first on the chopping block when cuts come round and they would have no pay increases of their own that have been agreed upon and simply ignored.
Mw,
Ugh, most teachers are probably doctrinaire lefties long on methodology and short on subject matter. This is borne out because that is what their students assimilate under their tutelage.
Bitter Bunchie,
You sound like an angry old English major who is still working on his version of John Galt’s speech in his basement. Still writing that novel? Still bitter about not getting that teaching gig? Did trickle down trickle you out? Is Objectivism not working out the way you hoped? Talk about short on substance and long ideological rhetoric – gaze in to the looking glass.
flyby oink-ment,
Why ask a Bunchie a bunch of questions when you can stand on your own two webbed feet and make a declarative statement. My proof is not only the product you turn out – but that you come into this forum lying and whining about your lot in life. Me bitter? You call me bitter? The more slothful complainers you cannot find than the teachers who haunt this forum.
And you know this… how? Obviously not with direct knowledge, so you must be making some glorious assumptions. And everyone knows what happens when you ASS/U/ME…
Hey Einstein, if there were that many bright new faces applying to Harford County, they would be advertising in the Sun. People are avoiding this county like you avoid reason.
should read, “would not be.”
It’s an easy fix. The Board of Education needs to put all new school construction on hold. Close the schools that are too small and redistrict all the schools to take advantage of the vacant seats. Stopping the construction of a not needed Havre de Grace High School / Middle School. Take the savings and pay the teachers. “It’s our Turn”.
None,
Hell with that. You send your kid to Aberdeen. Why did we build Paterson Mill when we could have saved tons of money by throwing up some extra structures in all that vacant space behind Edgewood.
I know 6 experienced teachers leaving for PA and NJ. In the short term it may not matter but as the numbers increase year to year the long term results will be detrimental to Harford County property values as well. I also know at least of a few 1st year graduates that applied at HCPS but are holding out for something else because Harford County is developing a reputation of not paying teachers.
As you can tell by my acronyms of achievement, I make a lot more money than teachers.
Every morning I wake up, I have to decide which $3,500 suit I’m going to wear.
Tomback was one of the worst things that happened to the HCPS system. He didn’t manage the budget, didn’t care about the students or the teachers, promoted some incompetents to central office, and added more layers of hierarchy. How long will it take to correct the problems he created.
I would suggest about 5 years to fix his mess and another decade to fix the damage Craig has done.
just,
That shot you take must be in a vein or in a short glass.
Boeotian Bunch,
I enjoy a fine American bourbon on appropriate occasions. As for shooting up in veins, I would think that might be something bitter, angry, old men do while trying to stay relevant by attacking the foundation and fabric of American life on this board. I would have to defer to you for expertise on that subject.
Rear-view Mirror,
A coterie of government wastrels is not a “foundation and fabric of American life” – said collective does vary two angstroms from the public tit or make a contribution greater than the melting watch on the face of a Dali litho.
Try matching your own socks for cripes sake.
Rear-view Mirror,
A coterie of government wastrels is not a “foundation and fabric of American life” – said collective does not vary two angstroms from the public tit or make a contribution greater than the melting watch on the face of a Dali litho.
Try matching your own socks for cripes sake.
Which convertible should I drive today? My Porcshe or Lotus?
Take your douche canoe.
You douche canoe!
Excuse me? I buy two new BMWs a year just to drive to my beach house.
How much money you make?
Muff,
‘John John’ is the troll spammer. Whenever a teacher topic comes up and they get their ass handed to them, ‘John John’ appears and spams the thread with distracting nonsense, hoping to ruin the discourse and shut the thread down. Ignore ’em and engage those still willing to defend their position. Johnny boy is an indigent mongrel at best.
You probably drive a cube and live in your mother’s basement.
This must be why we never see the monthly report on personnel anymore LOL
I know the standard answer will be, “Different bucket of money”, but why not forget building the new HS in HdG and allot that money for teacher salaries?
Because Harford County believes a new school REALLY helps students learn better but in reality if you want the students to continue to learn then teachers need to be paid more. Back in our grandparents’ days they didn’t have all these new school buildings that looked all nice but they still got an education and learned.
H,
In every other pursuit the argument goes: ‘If you want to continue to see rising test scores and maintain the outstanding level of student outcome, you need to pay the teachers more’.
You never win an argument by suggesting that if you pay current employees better they will do better – certainly not in the professional fields.
Finding money to fund salaries is easy:
1. Cut the layers of FAT at the AA Roberty Bldg.
2. Cut the lazy Facilities Dept staff by 1/3
3. Stop constructing new schools!!!!!!
4. Close norrisville, Darlington, havre de Grace middle
5. Eliminate IF positions
There, budget problem solved!!!!!!!!!
These comments are in response to hcpsjoke’s remarks regarding Harford Tech. Harford Tech lost 11 teachers because in addition to the fact that teacher contracts are not being honored and SOL’s are being rammed down their throat and Common Core is a damn mess, the leadership at Tech has been lacking ever since the principal at that school took over. The principal, Mr. Hagan, has no vision, has no insight, has absolutely no clue what he is doing and morale among the staff is at the lowest it has ever been because he can not motivate or inspire his staff, just bully them. In addition, the new vice principal at the school, Mr. Collins is a gung ho zealot who believes that hounding teachers and demanding that they do more, more, more while they are given less, less, less is acceptable. If Mr. Collins were a jockey, and the horse he was riding was tired, instead of letting up on the reins, Mr. Collins would continue to beat the horse until the poor thing collapsed. Those 11 teachers who left were tired and refused to be beat down anymore. And due to the lack of leadership of both Mr. Hagan and Mr. Collins, there will be more departures. Indeed, there are very few teachers at Tech who would stay if they had other options.
A good leader knows the difference between inspiring and bullying. A good leader knows when to push and when to pull back. The two “leaders” at Harford Tech have never demonstrated that they understand these basic tenets and it is the main reason why teachers are fleeing from Tech at record numbers. There was a time when no teacher ever left Tech and it took years to get in. Now, no one wants to stay at Tech and not many want to come. SAD!
Sure sounds like a shameful situation. Somebody should investigate this.
Please, that would require central office staff to leave their comfy offices and to know first-hand what is going on in their schools. They visit once a year. I guess with that visit and a bunch of data they run the schools from afar (mentally and physically).
HCPS just lets all those long term (previously) trade teachers at Tech just walk on out them doors. Okay, some of them retired.
Realistically, with the hiring requirements, and what is it? $42,000/year. I doubt many people worth a damn will be interested in applying. Probably is true, since all the trade teacher positions on HCPS hiring website have been continuously up for months now.
Somehow I forsee Plumbing not the only trade at Harford Tech getting shit canned.
Hagan, he was a Vice Principal, and made a Principal in what, 2004? 2005?
I have several friends who teach and work at Harford Tech and have said the same things. Collins is making the staff nuts with all his work intensive ideas that he dumps on other people. One teacher told me that one of the reasons besides money that the trade teachers are leaving is that Collins and Malone are trying to force them to take on academic models for their classrooms and it’s frustrating for them and their kids…especially the ones who chose Tech because their academic home school wasn’t a good fit for them.
The school’s been on a down slide ever since HCPS transferred Dave Thomas, who had a trade background to principal at North Harford because “he had school construction experience”. He’s long gone out of HCPS and director of a technical school complex in PA.-Smart man. Hagan has a phys.ed. background…no wonder he cares more about athletics than his teachers. Be interesting to see the list of grievances filed against him. Rumor has it he’s tight with Barbara Canavan and many of the staff were hoping he would make his way to a central office job and they’d get Mike Thatcher as principal. Nope. Same ol’ same ol’.
At least 20 reachers left Tech just this year. It’s an absolute shame what is happening at that school. It’s not all about the money. The bullying has been going on for several years now beginning with the Fleury/Hagan regime and has recently spiraled out of control.
Well if the working conditions are not good then why doesn’t HCEA actually DO SOMETHING? Or are they just there to defend themselves and collect the dues?
a few general comments after reading the “usual” responses below.
I obviously do not know people’s situations, only mine and my circle of friends/peers/family… To the people who decry teachers for health insurance and their pensions, I understand to some, times are still not fantastic to say the least, however mine and most full time professional jobs obtained after a 4 year degree do offer good health insurance, maybe not a pension, but a 401K match (that if taken advantage of for 30-40 years will amount to a substantial number).
To those who think teachers do not have a beef, search the Baltimore Sun for recent articles about Howard County teachers and their pay dispute. One from 3-4 weeks ago referenced recent salary info and raise details for most of the major Baltimore/ Washington suburban counties. Harford is last or 2nd to last in salary and ALL (except guess who) have received raises this year in one form or another and have plans to continue raises for the next few years. Why would a teacher want to stay here? I switched jobs 2 years ago for a better commute and more money. That is capitalism baby. 90% of America does the same thing everyday, yet knuckleheads continue to post hundreds of idiot comments against teachers for reasons I cannot fathom. Don’t be jealous when teachers do what everyone else has a right to do (and DOES!) You guys need to spend more time improving your own situations and stop bellyaching when others try to do the same. I guess these people prefer less when it comes to education and public safety.
One last thing, Our esteemed County Executive will tell anyone who is dumb enough to listen that all of our financial problems are not Harford County’s fault (or the elected officials faults)… That the State has forced numerous financial burdens upon us that he couldn’t do anything against. Well if you did your Baltimore Sun homework from above and noticed the salaries and raises that all the nearby counties have given, it makes you want to ask if those counties operate under the same ‘poor conditions’ in Maryland cried about by Mr. Craig. Only Harford County screws with their most important positions, the police and education. Craig is next to useless, blames everyone else for problems he couldn’t /wouldn’t fix, and used the county and it’s budgets for his own personal election experiment. (Which thankfully failed)
“offer good health insurance” – Not even close to the Cadillac plan teachers get.
“401K match” – virtually all capped around 3% and this is an incentive to save, nothing more. It is nothing compared to a pension. In fact, if you want to retire comfortably you need savings and a pension… or two pensions. The average 401k balance is 78k – does not get you far.
“decry teachers for health insurance and their pensions” – The sales job by Burbey at the county meetings totally ignores the reality of the valuable teacher benefits, and they are equally ignored in this forum while teachers scream poverty. Just admit their value when you start talking about what you actually earn. The future shows government employees as the only middle-class. With most all of the niew new jobs created are part time with no benefits, pretty much government employees will have the only full time jobs with benefits.
Babbling Baboonery,
Your hysterical obsession with teachers and ongoing rants while originally mildly entertaining are now vestigial. Just like a bad sitcom, you should consider an enduring hiatus to reflect on the reasons for you poor ratings. Perhaps, a good therapist or spiritual guide might be helpful? Repugnant, ridiculous and repulsive are not the winning formula Captain Dunsel.
Aba – Dabba – Do,
“vestigial” – Oh yes, brevity and refinement is true art – as to nature itself, though to you a criticism. I see the high school thesaurus at work. Glad to see this forum contributes a challenge that classrooms never do.
“Repugnant, ridiculous and repulsive” – Even chucked in an alliteration. May I add, though, that you had the opportunity to expand your vision, but chose two words that describe each other. Never let structure determine meaning.
And finally, believe in yourself. Just because the notions of zealots crater – and they thumb you down – do not dismiss the accuracy of your beliefs.
BB,
My thoughts – After receiving feedback of another trillion or two thumbs down and “hidden due to low comment rating” messages, perhaps even your hero, John Galt, would finally get the idea that the message is deeply flawed. My advice: Option 1- Go back to writing that novel. Option 2 – Think of me as your “shepherd”, guiding you and your angry, bitter flock on that far right path to the ultimate fate that rightfully awaits you as a footnote in mutton factory of political history. The choice is yours.
“Bunch”….teachers contribute 7% of their salary towards their pension.
An example of a normal 401K with a 3% match from a non government employee who contributes 7% with said match can accumulate upwards of $1 Million after working during their lives using the MD formula of expecting 7.75% return on average. Now personally I would rather have the pension since the returns are guaranteed, but the point is that it is reasonable for a person with a 3% match and a 7% contribution rate to expect a decent retirement payout as long as they manage their account well and do not borrow from that account.
And by the way, it’s not like teaching is some exclusive club like professional sports that the average person could not expect be able to do…Anyone with a teaching degree who displays the energy, organizational skills and passion for teaching young people can take advantage of these perks you so often lament. Your endless litany of disparaging remarks make me want to believe you wanted to be a teacher, but could not handle it. I don’t think it’s as easy as you may think, even with the perks. If you are so jealous of these benefits, go be a teacher. Just don’t be surprised when you find that it’s much harder than you thought. Luckily for the real world, you are just some anonymous nobody who makes meaningless posts on a largely invisible platform, unlikely to have any sway on the real world’s opinions. Hopefully you can take solace that your present or future children got as good as education as mine have in this county. Call me if you want to set up an account. 😉
“you are just some anonymous nobody who makes meaningless posts on a largely invisible platform,” – and just what the hell are you, other than a self proclaimed expert on things “meaningless” and “invisible.”
Your retirement information is laden with so many variables and false implications that your expertise on “meaningless” is quite apparent. I don’t want to try and fill a page here but understand that the average person at 55 has 255k in their 401k plan. It gets that way because their company match is 3% of whatever the employee contributes, not 3% of their salary. And, of course, the money is invested; most people lost their shirt in 2008 – and, despite the stock market rebounding, most folks didn’t get their money back. What a private sector person puts away, along with a little matching, is all they have.
Now, this is way different than a teacher contributing 7% of their salary to a pension. That 7% is not the sum total of their pension – it is a percent of salary. The teacher pension (unless updated recently) is a formula based on years of service and final salary – and they get cost-of-living adjustment up to 3%.
The formula is something like:
Annual Benefit = (years of service) x (final average salary) x M
The difference between a 401k and a pension is the difference between lightening and a lightening bug.
Bunchies,
You are comparing apples to oranges when looking at a defined pension plan and a 401k match.
You are free to contribute to a 401k match, tax deferred until you have mandatory distributions.
The contribution is tax deferred until cashing it in
You can reduce and/or increase your contribution before/after the maximum employer match.
You can actually set up IRA/Self funded multiple plans.
The $$$ are yours and you can have a beneficiary if you like.
Govt pension plans.
The state decides how much an employee must contribute.
the state can change the defined benefit at any time
Defined benefit can be eliminated or reduced as it happens in the funding pension goes BK.
The contribution is not tax deductible. Taxes are taken and counted as income even if they go to the pension plan.
You have no control over costs and benefits.
The money in your account belongs to the plan, you are have a defined benefit.
The payout formula has changed over the years and will probably change in the future.
If you pass after retirement, your beneficiaries do not get the rest of your money. That is specially true if unmarried and no post death benefit is used.
There are plus and minuses to each plan for sure. The cost of defined pension plans has steadily been increased to the employees and the local govts amounts have not kept pace with liabilities.
Is not as simple a calculation as you present but basically true. You can get additional credits for different accruals in different plans and there are multiple plans in the pension system. Vesting is also different for all plans and depending your your plan, your contribution may be higher but more protected from future revisions.
I would rather move to a self-directed plan and do away with the whole thing. The way the government manages the plan, its costs and benefits are out of my control. The county does offer for employees another tax deferred plan but the county doesn’t match it. I would rather they move their contribution and mine to that plan and get away from the state controlling it for me. I believe other counties do not participate in the state’s plan and there are some that have moved to a self-directed plan.
l,
“think of me as your “shepherd”..” – Shamans are not self-appointed. Meaningful life and art come from
how deep a life it springs.
“trillion or two thumbs down” – beyond, or rather beneath hyperbole, “as lief the town crier spoke my lines” (Willy).
This thought comes to mind:
“When true genius appears in the world,
you may know him by this sign, the dunces
are all in confederacy against him.” – Swift
Please reread the last two lines in my previous post. This thread is not about changing our core beliefs; it is about developing our point of view. Your thinly veiled attempt to change the subject is amounting to spam. If you want to be a member of the literati, work your way in words on the subject at hand.
–
Ouch ) :
“The whole secret lies in confusing the enemy, so that he cannot fathom our real intent.”
? Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Quotes are to enhance, not to be thievery in lieu of – as to plain-bare one’s elemental.
Mostly Blue,
“You are comparing apples to oranges when looking at a defined pension plan and a 401k match.” I was commenting on a previous post. My point was that there is no comparison.
I can condense it down even more:
401k is what you get from what you put in with a minimal company match. You are at the whims of cheetah trading hedge funds and poor investment decisions on you own part. Only the upper income ranges can actually afford to max out on contributions – and God forbid you have a 2008 type crash near to you retirement age.
Pension system for teachers is a government backed retirement where you put a selected percentage in to basically keep some skin in the game. It is not based on what you put in as to what you get out. Your retirement is on a formula structured to your highest ending pay. Usually, reductions in a benefit plan are for new hires. Are you suggesting that a teacher who worked 30 years under one pension plan had the state suddenly reduce their pension? Or, did they ever reduce the pension for a retired teacher? You are trying to suggest the state does all types of shenanigans on whimsy – as though you are painting it less beneficial than a 401k. No way teachers only get what pay in with only a tiny added match as one does with a 401k.
You could have easily explained the difference as defined contribution (401k) and defined benefit (pension). The latter is much more expensive, as it leaves it open how long the recipient will live after retirement when the former is very cut and dry (and allows employees to know exactly what they can expect in retirement, plus allows them to leave the employer easily, or the employer to go out of business without a financial mess for the employees, like when Bethlehem Steel’s pension collapsed and PBGC stepped in and cut pension payments).
If you’re close to retirement age and solely invested in the stock market, your financial advisor is an idiot. A properly administered 401k will be diversified to guard against crashes, and will shift investments from stocks into low-risk activities as the owner’s intended retirement date approaches.
Oh, let me add that when the contribution to pensions increased the multiplier increased to increase the payout. I believe new hires were on a different payout system.
encouragement,
Okay then, try to be honest on this one. If it were put up to a vote, would the teachers chose a 401k plan or their current pension.
So, what do you think? Taxpayers would love to get them all into a 401k, but what do you think would be the teacher’s choice?
OMG….You two are CRAZY!!! It’s a race to see who can respond first. GO!
wait…go out! Grab a drink, find a girl, do something. Good Lord!
The number of teachers leaving has increased? So what? If they had some leadership in HCEA they might stay. But if they want to go then it’s a free country.