From Bill Wehland of Bel Air:
It has become increasingly apparent that the Harford County Council members do not work together as a team to pass legislation that represents the majority of the community’s interests. Instead they have their own self interests and create hostility between themselves and the citizens they serve.
A prime example is how they failed to vote on Bill 13-16 that was sponsored by four of the seven council members, Council President Billy Boniface, council members Jim McMahan, Dion Guthrie, and Joe Woods. This bill would require retail establishments larger than 75,000 square feet to ultimately be approved by the Harford County Council after review by Planning and Zoning, just like existing regulations are for Integrated Community Shopping Centers and Planned Residential Developments. Although this bill would not prevent big box stores from building in certain business districts (such as the controversial Wal-Mart project) it would have been the beginning of legislation that could have controls over future store size development.
Although many people who supported Bill 13-16 during the public hearing thought it was going to stop Wal-Mart from building if approved at the intersection of Plumtree and 924, they were probably encouraged by the words of Pete Gutwald, Director of Planning and Zoning who said that the law would apply to Wal-Mart if their site plan was not approved by his department before the new law became effective. This became a mute issue as Councilwoman Mary Ann Lisanti introduced an amendment, prior to the failure of the bill, exempting projects, such as the Wal-Mart, that had applied for county approval prior to the bill’s effective date. The amendment was co-sponsored by Councilman Dick Slutzky and approved by all members except for President Boniface and Councilman Jim McMahan.
The irony of the evening was climaxed by Councilman Jim McMahan making a motion to approve the bill as amended which should have produced an approval based upon the bill having already been sponsored by four council members and an amendment to the bill by two other members to rid any so called ambiguity as to projects that it would apply to. Instead, no member seconded the bill and thus it failed for lack of a second. I found this to be absurd and a slap in the face to the citizens supporting the bill. Other members apparently did not want to go on record as voting for or against the bill. In reality six of the seven members were in favor of the bill. There were the four who sponsored it and than the additional two who sponsored the amendment to the bill. Only Councilman Shrodes had difficulty with voting on anything.
At the conclusion of the meeting President Boniface expressed his frustration and was disappointed in his fellow council member’s decision to not vote on it. Unfortunately he would not allow the public still in attendance to make any further comments about the bill or their opinion how the council handled it.
After witnessing this debacle I believe the bill should have been thoroughly explained in layman terms when introduced and prior to the public hearing. Discussions should have been what it would do or not do and how it would fit actual practice. Secondly this bill should not have been voted on the same night. This would have allowed council members to think about it as a team, to understand the amendments, to allow public comment and to make changes based upon what they heard at the public hearing.
It is sad that this council will not consider store size caps and that they chose to give up their right to discuss and approve or disapprove structures over 75,000 square feet in size.
There have been so many other communities that have recognized that their local economies can absorb only so much new retail without causing numerous businesses to close and other pedestrian safety problems They have even gone a step beyond Bill 13-16 and enacted zoning rules that completely prohibit stores over a certain size. They have found that store size caps, within certain designated districts, prevent the many negative impacts of big box development such as increased traffic congestion and over burdened public infrastructure. Store size caps can protect the character of a community by ensuring new development is at a scale in keeping with existing buildings and surrounding residential communities.
Store size caps are perfectly legal, and scores of cities, towns and counties have restricted the size of their stores and their laws have not been challenged. State and local courts have ruled that restrictions in size are constitutional, they do not unduly harm competition, and they are a valid use in zoning authority.
Our county council needs to wake up and stop outlandish development. They need to consider store size caps as other progressive communities have done.
I also believe the council member have an obligation to publicly state their logic and reasons for not bringing Bill 13-16 to a vote and approving it. They owe this much to the Citizens to whom they report.
Bill Wehland
Bel Air, MD
So it is outlandish because Walmart wants to build in Bel Air? Would you feel the same way if it was a Nordstrom, Macy’s or Sachs Fifth Avenue? The county council can’t pass laws that restrict development within the so called development envelope nor are they above the law. The citizens of Bel Air thought this piece of undeveloped land would remain virgin forever? I recalled that they were opposed to building an apartment complex at the site and pushed for commercial designation instead. I rather they build it there because there are roads and infrastructure in place to support it as opposed to building it somewhere near nowhere.
Where do you live? I live @ one mile from 924 & Plumtree. We certainly do not need more traffic.
Did you feel this way when the Walgreens opened or Sonic?
Yes.
Not as relevant. Those two stores wouldn’t occupy the space of the checkout area of a large retailer like a Target or Walmart. Do you really think Walgreens and Sonic draw as many customers that would increase local traffic by 10k cars a day?
Everyone was super happy when they thought Cabelas or Bass Pro Shop was coming.
Now that they realize Walmart and Cabelas can utilize the same zoning, the sky is falling.
I really want to see a K-mart or Section 8 apartments go there instead of Walmart. It would be a source of constant amusement.
Kharn that line is getting pretty old. I don’t see anyone singling out Walmart other than me…it’s about the size and scale and the amount of traffic and always has been. Continuing to repeat this falsehood won’t make it any more true.
Sorry alot of people are saying it has everything to do witth Wal-Mart and the perception of the clientel. Comments such as Wal-Mart brings Crime are examples of it. Gutherie said the whole bill was absolutely about one goal…..stopping Wal-Mart!
The truth is the opposition types have a lot of diverse reasons for stopping this, and some are more or less valid/credible than others depending on your point of view. People hate Walmart, so inevitably, hating Walmart was always going to be one of the reasons. But it’s not the major reason for much of the opposition people I’ve ever talked to, and it was hardly mentioned at all last July at the Community Input Meeting (although it was mentioned, as I said, inevitably).
It’s unfair and diversionary to boil the issue down to this one factor, and it’s equally dishonest to say it has nothing to do with it.
There are plenty of other logical, factual reasons to oppose their plan for that site, which have all been hashed out many times before.
Unfortunately, none of them are as compelling as a potential lawsuit from the largest retailer in the world.
Guthrie spent a lot of time harping about the refuse station in his district…isn’t that NIMBY too? Of course it is. Bet if he could pass a law specifically designed to preclude the refuse station he’d do it in a heartbeat. I don’t pay that much attention to what he says or most other politicians for that matter because it’s often self grandizing.
Yes the refuse station is NIMBY as well the difference is in acquiring the refuse land Craig did not follow the established protocols and just tried to jam it down the throat. The people got involved in the zonning process. Here the People materialized after the zoning protocol and change their mind about it.
Noble unfair or not that is what the anti-Walmart crowd have painted them as. BTW I find it Ironic that when they have their weekend rallies they Park in the Wal-Mart Parking lot to protest Wal-Mart!!!! If Wal-Mart was being mean they would have the cars towed!
@KM
I am shocked that there’s traffic on 924 and Plumtree!
You should move away from roads to a more rural location.
Or maybe we should outlaw pizza and Chinese food delivery and require residents to pick up their takeout food on their way home from work? Now that would cut down the traffic.
Whoa… stop -STOP –WAIT!
…there’s a place that delivers Chinese food in that area??? Which one?
What I’m still baffled at is all this “O-Face Shock” from folks on 924. All I can say is where were they in the room of maybe 50 during the Harford County Planning and Zoning meetings. Once again the main issues here are AG vs Development. In order to preserve AG in northern HARCO (and not saying that is working), the development T is where they concentrated development. Oh you got a big box store in the Development T…let me show you my O’Face.
Whats even more pathetic is folks screaming for Gov to step in and stop a legal business from developing the property which is coded for retail. If you didn’t want a big walmart maybe you shouldn’t have had your panties in a bunch several years ago when an apartment complex was the thorn in your crawl. Now that you got the zone you wanted you want to change the rules and block free enterprise! Small government weekend warriors, or when its convenient. And then some had the audacity for publishing the address of the person selling the land, WELL within his God Given Rights, so they can harrass him lawayer. You hypocrites are pathetic, tough cookie 924 but walmart didn’t start your traffic woes. It didn’t take this year for me to see 924 was a nightmare….I saw traffic problems on 924 3 years ago (and growing). That was enough to make me not want to move there.
And by the way, I heard you may be getting that apartment complex you didn’t want anyway to boot, along with walmart. Hows that for irony!
There was really no justifiable reason not to pass the bill as amended. The other comments here are window dressing to that issue.
Yes there was. See the whole bill was always about stopping this Wal-Mart. Not about long term planning. The lack of a second speaks volumes to that. Gutherie was the only one honest about that. The others danced around the subject. Once an amendment was put forth to stop it from impacting the Wal-Mart it seemed to only have one persons support. Why? Because it no longer accomplished the stop Wal-Mart goal. Even the person who ammedned it no longer supported the bill!!!!! My guess is the bill would force the COuncil to decide what they did and did not want in the future and they didn’t want the liability!
Justifiable for what purpose and to whom? Political CYA? That seems to be what you are talking about.
I don’t find that to be a good reason not to pass a good bill this area really needs.
Like it or not this was Political CYA they had little interest in passing this when it no longer stopped Wal-Mart!
It’s hilarious some people want their government to stopthis, last time I.checked this isn’t North Korea, USSR, Cuba, etc.
The bill as I understand it would allow some modification in planning or zoning when/if the development is deemed unsuitable for an otherwise designated legal application. In simple terms not all commercial development is created equally and shouldn’t be treated the same. Good urban/surburban planning means having the ability to nuance best use. The entire issue is not about commercial zoning or wishing to halt all development; that would be unrealistic but it is in our best interest as a community to ensure neighborhoods are preserved to the best interests of the citizens. We don’t live here to suit Walmart or any other business – we live here for the community – I’m sure we can all agree we don’t want that area to end up looking like York Rd in Baltimore County; a testament to poor planning and unsightly blight. The tail does not wag the dog.
Really it comes down to this. Someone can build a 200,00 sq foot shopping center (ICS they call them?) and they are held to one standard, or they can build a single gigantic 185,000 sq ft store that in reality is a mall unto itself, and they are held to different standards.
The bill intended to bring those two types of development under similar standards, which only makes sense.
And it was amended so that it absolutely could NOT stop Walmart or any other projects already initially submitted to the County, with 5 members supporting it.
But when it came time to vote? Crickets.
Very disappointing particularly given it’s a tool that would help us moving forward. The message they send by doing nothing is business controls our town and big business gets to decide how, when and where they want things done regardless of how it impacts the way we want to live. If that’s the case really the only recourse we have as citizens is boycott and there is power in that but it’s difficult to sustain. It would only take 10% of us to refuse to ever enter that store and they’re in real trouble.
No, actually your only recourse is to vote out of office those that do not support your view and thoroughly vet those wanting to hold those same political offices before you vote for them. It looks like those not wanting Walmart missed the boat on both opportunities. Live and learn for the next election.
Yes so the council would say Wal-Mart bad but Target good. Essentially it would ask the COunty Council to randomly descriminate between buisnesses!
No. It would ask them to stand as an appeal board for decisions about plans for projects above a certain size. Choosing between plans and businesses are not the same thing.
Now if you want to get into a deeper debate about whether or not having elected officials with political intentions making decisions about development at all is a good idea or not, that’s slightly different and certainly open for debate. Generally I would prefer to let administrators handle development and be by the book about it.
The fact that we involve elected officials in zoning appeals strikes me as rather bizarre to begin with. Maybe that’s me.
As stated in previous posts, on this subject, when big money and politics are in bed together, big money will win every time.
Spell check and speaking coherently goes a long way people when making a point. There are good and bad reasons of this debate. Do I want a WalFart built there, NO! Not because I don’t like WalFart, but I rarely shop WalFart. Would I want another retail store built there? SURE! Is it the best place to build, NO! The County needs to halt development until they tackle the congestion issues they obviously put on the back burner 15+ years ago. I moved to Harford Co. 20+ years, and I have systematically watched them build without a thought as to the increased traffic. A blatant example is when they built the original WalFart, Target, movie theater, BJs, etc. Total nightmare especially during the holidays. Why haven’t they considered extending the road out through the other end? Start leaving an hour early to get to your destination folks, it’s going to continue to be a bumpy, crowded ride through Bel Air!
It seems you’re not alone on this. Looks like more people are “FedUp” than just you.
http://www.daggerpress.com/2013/04/23/abingdon-community-council-asks-harford-county-council-to-better-examine-impacts-of-ill-managed-growth/
I think the problem at CF center is that CF Blvd is not a county road, it’s part of the center– but I might be wrong about that. I think responsibility for changes in there belong to the center’s owner/developer. And all their space is leased, so obviously they don’t care about the traffic.
The County needs to halt development until they tackle the congestion issues they obviously put on the back burner 15+ years ago. I moved to Harford Co. 20+ years, and I have systematically watched them build without a thought as to the increased traffic. A blatant example is when they built the original WalFart, Target, movie theater, BJs, etc. Total nightmare especially during the holidays. Why haven’t they considered extending the road out through the other end? Start leaving an hour early to get to your destination folks, it’s going to continue to be a bumpy, crowded ride through Bel Air!
Sadly we tried to stop all of this 20+ years ago the housing and the shopping off of Singer road and happily for the home owners they gotheir homes but then when a mall was going to be built there the community of CF fought that and thought by having the Walmart they would stop the building and have their paradise. Funny now 20 years later all of those that moved up here are again trying to stop what we could not. Honestly because of the traffic patterns that were proposed to be put in place had there been a mall everyone might have been a lot better off.
FedUp and Jarretsville Mom do you two share he same body? Or simply the term “WalFart”? I appreciate that people come here under multiple personalities and vote multiple times on the same posts, either Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down. But when you can be this easily nailed you really should consider NOT being so obvious. And maybe choose one pseudonym and stick to voting from different IP Addresses like everyone else that wants to support the same opinion.
To this day it remains unclear to me why we feel like we should be able to stop a company from doing something that is legal for them to do just because a bunch of us don’t like it.
It is even more curious that the law that makes it legal for them to do it was passed because the same bunch of us who don’t like what they are doing is approximately the group agitated for the law that allows them to do it to be passed.
This is nothing more than a small minority of Harco citizens thinking that if they whine and moan long enough and loud enough someone will give them what they want.
If Walmart builds it I will likely go once in awhile. If they don’t build it my life will go on.
Folks, you got what you demanded some years ago when you stopped the apartment complex. I doubt your toddler tantrum is going to work this time. Is it a good place for a Walmart? Not the best but okay. Is it the fact that it is Walmart that is building and not a high end retail store? No doubt it is for some.
If you folks would put the same energy into getting the infrastructure of the County improved as you are doing in to this then we would see sore real improvement. Harford Community College and 2 public schools nearby running on wells and septic? Mountain Road a 2 lane nightmare every day? Some parts of Route 22 a carnival of traffic issues? Try to get focused on what counts.
The only reason Mountain Rd. is a two lane nightmare is because 24 is a four lane nightmare. Half the traffic both north and south on 152 turn on or off of Belair Rd and most of them come from Forest Hill and other areas that 24 was designed to service.
So, MoneyTree, it sounds like you are making my point. Infrastructure inadequate to service existing populace. When is the Harco government going to widen the roads and put in additional water and sewerage to serve the people who live here?
No exactly – I’d assume you believe that 152 needs to be made wider with additional lanes? I do not regardless of the inconvenience. The adage “if you build it they will come” holds true and it’s a method to incremental development window creep. That is not to say that development inside the window need not be appropriate and planned but developers love to get that foot in the door and once inside they become like the houseguest from hell that will not leave and eats all your food.
So if I live on, for example, or use Mountain Road a lot its okay for my tax money to make it convenient for you somewhere else but not for me? Build it and they will come? Ha ha. They are already here. What do you want? A few more multi car fatals?
Widening 152 would require the taking of real estate since neighborhoods developed there long before it was used as a shortcut out of Belair. You can see the list of transportation priorities on the MDOT website…152 doesn’t make the cut. 65% of all fatal accidents occur on what are considered rural roads with little traffic, limited signage and low maintenance expenditures (road striping and the like). 152 is not considered a rural road. We’re talking about congestion, not speeding, inattentiveness, aggressive driving or failure to obey posted speed limits.
Money Tree,
I love your post “I do not regardless of the inconvenience”. Obviously it’s not you being inconvenienced. May I paraphrase please?
“I got mine but I don’t want you to get anything so screw you!” Actually screw you twice since Alex doesn’t get what he needs while Alex pays for Money Tree to get what he/she wants.
Alex – take a pill. I live in that area and am inconvenienced all the time so your insults are way off base. In addition, my support or lack thereof over the Walmart/big box issue has nothing to do with my convenience but support for my neighbors even though it will affect me very, very little. You are allowed to care about the county you live in even if whatever the issue is might not be right next door.
Regardless of how you design things, people will take unintended routes. Once they reach a critical mass and begin to impact the throughput of the road, you must accomodate them instead of ignoring them or shouting they’re taking the wrong route. 152 and 543 are used regularly by those avoiding 24, and need to be expanded to four lanes from I95 to Rt 1; 22 should probably be expanded from I95 to the 543 intersection.
Route 543 and 22 are on the list of transportation priorities but more associated with BRAC projects than Bel Air traffic congestion.
So would that be BRAC as in the biggest non-event of this century?
Who would have ever thought that people living in New Jersey where Mr. Christie is governor would have resisted moving to the People’s Republic of Maryland governed by Mr. O’Malley and his mob?
There is a huge cultural divide between the two states, but once the DoD employees that commute daily (or live in APG’s housing during the week) take an early retirement buy-out, you’ll find their replacements will almost certainly move to Harford (with a few in Cecil and Baltimore).
Alex,
I believe you have summarized it pretty well.
lifelong in Harford County – going on 52 years. 924 was the 24 – 2 lanes with nothing between Edgewood and Bel Air except Bearsch’s, Ethan Allen, Ward and Bosely and later 7/11. Development was slow. Then whoever was in power at the time did a study – too much traffic on 24 – so we get the new 4 lane highway – at the time was supposed to be an “expressway from 95 to Bel Air” State Delegate Dan Riley, ultimately voted out, warned that the “Development Wolves” were behind the “expressway.” “Build this road and you will see the wolves with their houses and shopping centers all along the way.” Riley’s vision and probably Dale Hess and others was the true vision – Then to accompany the road, the Rehrman administration, or there abouts, gave us the “development envelope.” The deal was sealed way back in the 80’s and early 90’s. Money is Power – that’s what wins.
I think you’re right. You can’t hold back “progress” as they say and money will always find a way to win. This place has gone from dairy farms to strip malls in one generation. Drove the back way to Creswell through Abingdon the other day and what a nightmare – no wonder the Abingdon crowd is up in arms. When did all the townhouses go in…there’s only one farm left all the way out through to the corner of Calvary Rd. and 543. So ill advised to asphalt over some of the most fertile and productive soil in the world.
Cry me a river. So Rt 22 needs 4 lanes from 95 to 543? Is it because it takes 35 minutes instead of 20 minutes during rush hour to travel? Outside of a few hours M-F, that road is empty. Do we really want to waste money on saving 15 minutes? At 22 and 136, do you want to take Goales or the Church property so you can save that inconvenience time? Anything North of 543 should be low density development, we don’t need another Aberdeen or Bel Air in the north part of the county.
Maybe a center turn lane for large portions of the road would suffice, but regular traffic moves at ~60mph the entire stretch of the road, even when the speed limit is 40mph. The road should be improved to safely handle such speeds.
The intersection at Adam’s Jeep needs to be improved, as drivers coming from either direction on 22 risk rear-ending a turning vehicle not using their turn signals. The 136 and 155 intersections in Churchville also require improvement, they’re bumper to bumper every evening and the stop light timing seems to be incorrect. Small improvements would be a great help, such as extending the two lane portion of 22W beyond the veterinary clinic so that traffic does not have to considerably slow for vehicles turning into the shopping centers. This would also give traffic exiting the shopping centers an easier merge.
WALLY WALLY WALLY WALLY WORLD
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