From Sen. J.B. Jennings:
In the wake of several high-profile tragic events, there is a heightened level of sensitivity and awareness in our schools. This has led to countless incidents nationwide involving questionable judgment with respect to discipline issued to elementary school children by teachers and education officials. At least two incidents have occurred recently within our great State of Maryland. I believe these are overreactions by school officials.
While the motivations may be genuine, there has been little argument that suspensions for a piece of paper that looks like a “phaser gun” or a Pop-Tart that may have resembled some kind of firearm are overreactions when put in the youthful context of a 6 to 12 year old elementary school child.
This bill entitled “The Responsible School Discipline Act of 2013”, Senate Bill 1058 sets forth clear, straightforward guidelines on what is and what is not acceptable when handling matters that amount to “children being children”. The bill prescribes an appropriate discipline that must be adhered to during counseling students of all grade levels in any Maryland school that uses public funds. If we wait too long, this type of reaction will become the standard response by school administrators only serving to perpetuate fear amongst our young students, not to mention putting marks on permanent academic records that are neither appropriate nor warranted.
The bill includes a counseling and disciplinary protocol for violations by school administrators. Another key provision makes it impossible for minor incidents such as those in the recent news from being entered into the students’ permanent academic record, unless it involves an upper-school student intent on repeatedly violating school policies with regards to firearms and/or violence. This bill does not alter guidelines for direct acts of violent behavior whether involving firearm facsimiles or other devices.
The resolution is straightforward, easy to understand, and offers the school systems flexibility when dealing with incidents that are clearly more serious. This bill also offers immediate resolution paths for the parent(s); they may appeal expeditiously with their respective school boards.
Thank goodness someone’s addressing this… It’s out of control!
It’s out of control but laws wont fix it. It got out of control because of zero tolerance laws and people who stopped letting administrators use some common sense.
CDEV, I don’t usually agree with you, but do this time. We don’t trust anyone to make decisions any more. Because principals and school leaders are challenged so much, Boards have resorted to zero tolerance policies to head off suits. As a result we end up with stupid actions that could have been prevented had an administrator been allowed to think and use his educated judgement. I am amazed that the general public thinks that administrators get up every morning thinking to themselves ” how can I screw up kids today?”
CDEV doesn;t think so. Probably Abingdon Teacher doesn’t think so either. Remember, school officials hate it when the electorate try to rein them in. I doubt the bill will pass in The People’s Republic of Maryland.
If you read my earlier comment on this explaining your mistake in calling it a “curriculum” issue when the child was suspended, you would have seen that I thought that the punishment was ridiculous. I’m all for fair and reasonable discipline policies. Suspending an elementary school kid for just being a kid is just not smart.
Actually I think it is but the problem is other laws which created mandatory penelties. I think the Delegates bill attempts to start addressing this but is out of touch with the reality of a school. If a kid in a gang makes a gun shape and threatens another student with it based on his policy you can not do anything other then give him detention. Perhaps he should seek input from people in schools to find out how to address the problem…..
BTW any examples yet?
A “bill” and policy is what got us into this mess. Do away with “zero tolerance” attitudes and allow some common sense to seep back into the schools and we may actually have progress to where we used to be. Hmmm – maybe these policies weren’t progress afterall?
While I appreciate Sen Jennings effort to act upon this stupidity, the last thing we need is more paperwork, more laws to jumble an already confusing system of regulations. While this sort of knee jerk reaction of discipline is out of control, so is the writing of Bills to pass into law to counter them. Less Government… that’s what the people are trying to tell you all!!! I throw up my hands to it all… I would love to see the numb minded employees who punished these children so harshly disciplined (written up) for doing so, when a gentle word to the child would have sufficed, and I don’t think another law is required to do it. These matters should have been interceded and put to rest for what they were (a simple act of play) at the next level up, when the behavior of the child was brought to the attention of the administrators. If the people running our schools are so over the top that a pop tart gun is reason to suspend a little boy, maybe we need to wipe the slate and replace them with people who can think for themselves and discern real threat from imaginative play, which used to be a positive thing. It’s a disgrace.
The problem is other regulations and laws, by people who have not been in a school sense they graduated, took the ability for teachers and administrators to actually excercise their own judgement.
Talk about knee-jerk reactions? You need a bill to legislate common sense? Either you have it or you don’t. I can give you hundreds and hundreds of examples of teachers daily doing what is good and helpful to our students. But, I guess the public isn’t interested in them because it is so much more fun to believe that teachers as a group are incompetent.
Former Teacher, So what is your solution? How do we get administrators/teachers to act with common sense? And when they don’t, like the Anne Arundle Pop Tart incident, then what do we do? Believe me it is no fun at all to believe the group responsible for educating your children in the public schools are incompetent. We expect the school system to regulate itself so that these silly incidents don’t happen but the incidents continue. So I guess we as taxpayers and ‘consumers’ of public education have decided we have make them act like they should be acting by passing laws.
Alex R., I usually agree with you, but not on your comments above. You want to blame someone, blame the politicians who try to legislate crap; blame the lawyers who are happy to sue at the drop of a hat; blame the judges who too often side with the philosophy that someone else is at fault, etc. Boards have made these crazy no tolerance policies to avoid the above, but take away the common sense judgement of the people who run schools. Teachers and administrators are victims of these zero tolerance policies, so don’t blame them. We as a society don’t trust anyone to make decisions anymore. You are seeing the result of this when a child is suspended for making a pop tart gun.
Monster, I agree there is plenty of blame to go around. But if it were my 8 year old that became the victim of this stupidity then I don’t care how it came about, I’m looking for justice. And justice is not a 2 day suspension for eating a Pop Tart that accidently ends up looking like a gun if you really stretch your imagination.
Alex I understand that the person wants justice but in fairness it didn’t Accidently end up that way and even if the eating pattern was happenstance the kid recognized the shape and started pretending to use it as such. I agree that a suspension was not warentted here but a bill is what got us in this siutuation and the only bill that will solve it is to repeal the old one not a new one.
And when was the last time a bill was repealed? I suppose at the end of the day the only thing that will make the school systems, including their leadership and administrators, really take notice is more lawsuits. Unfortunately the taxpayers foot the bill for the legal defense of the school systems and for the settlement payments. Even if some of the lawsuits aren’t successful they bring negative publicity to the school systems and continually expose the stupidity. Some of the lawsuits will settle out of court for some payment but the lawyers still get a payday.
CDEV, these are grown adults that hold themselves forth as highly educated professionals.
I agree the legislators who force these policies are grown adults. They need to accept responsibility. The principal and teacher are simply following the law!
CDEV, I was referring to the administrators and teachers when I said grown adults who hold themselves forth to be professionals with advanced degrees. They are the people that need to exercise common sense. I don’t expect common sense from elected politicians. Show me the wording in any Federal or Maryland State law (code reference please) that says if an 8 year old accidentally eats a Pop Tart that turns out to look like someone’s idea of a gun a 2 day suspension is mandatory. That’s someone’s interpretation with a lot of CYA added. Do teachers and administrators not realize it is stuff like this that makes people hold the lot of them in derision?
Alex, I think you missed my point. Administrators and teachers don’t want students suspended for making a pop tart look like a gun either. The boards of education pass these zero tolerance policies. It is these policies that take away the common sense decision-making ability of administrators…much like those who want to ban guns in the belief that this will stop violence.
Monster, well then they can’t maintain their credibility as professionals and do stupid stuff like that at the same time. I don’t care who told them what.
who told them? Well since the BOE is elected….the voters and GA (who was elected) told them!
Alex, you just don’t want to give up on this, do you? You are missing the point each time you respond. I have come to respect your posts, but am quite disappointed with your current position. Why don’t you attend a Board of Education meeting in
Bel Air and state your support of principals and teachers being smart enough to decide on the Board’s policies and stop the zero tolerance bit. That is why this crazy decision of a pop tart looking like a gun happens- Zero Tolerance.
Cdev and Monster, I get your point. Really I do. But this wasn’t a real gun, or a plastic or wooden toy made to look like a gun. It wasn’t a water pistol. It was a POP TART! There is no way anyone in the real world could have mistaken this for a gun. You guys think I need to give the administrators a pass on this because of some zero tolerance policy. I’m not giving them a pass. If the policy is stupid then that’s between them and their superiors, all the way up the line thru the Superintendent to the BOE if that’s where it starts. These folks are educational professionals with advanced degrees and they will go to great lengths to tell you so. And when they don’t go to great lengths Ryan Burbey will.
What happens in the private sector when you think your bosses policy is “stupid” and you don’t follow it. You talk about how education needs to mirror the private sector. The people who elected the BOE, the BOE, The Superintendent developed this policy in Anne Arundel County. In Harford County you will notice that principals can not expell students. The worst they can do is refer them to the superintendent for further disiplinary action. It is there that he makes those decision. I do not agree with this; but most of these zero tolerance policies where mandated by politicians and MSDE.
Monster, Can you cite the HCPS school board policy that states the zero tolerance approach you say exists?
???, I don’t believe that HCPS has such a policy regarding guns. I don’t know about other counties, such as Anne Arundel where the infamous pop tart incident occurred. Let the school administrators decide and avoid zero tolerance policies, that is my point.
Maryland has a zero tolerence policy which is legislated by COMAR 13A.08.01.12-1
Hey Cdev,
COMAR 13A.08.01.12-1 refers, specifically, to a firearm, as defined by 18 USC 921. A firearm, as defined, is any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive (there is more to the definition, but nothing applicable).
Even with a zero tolerance policy, there would be no reason under this specific code to suspend or expel a student.
There may be a different policy to which the suspensions are based.
Paul Mc,
So is it reasonable to assume that a Pop Tart can’t expel a projectile?
Cdev,
Maybe the educational establishment stretched a point and believe that it might ‘expel a projectile’ once it reaches your lower intestine? Ha ha, these guys crack me up. And, Cdev, the point is this – it is a freaking Pop Tart! That’s the point. It’s not a gun. It’s not dangerous. Any anyone who participates in this comedy deserves whatever derision they get. From the BOE to the Superintendent to the administrator. When people do stupid things they don’t get to say ‘the devil made me do it.’ That’s the point and the only point. And that’s what led to this legislation.
Monster, If no zero tolerance policy exists that would specify suspension for this type of incident then wouldn’t the problem be with the inappropriate disciplinary measure issued by the school principal? In other words the principal used poor judgement and therefore we should not indict an entire school system. Absent such a specific school system wide policy other principals probably would have, and this particular principal could have, handled the situation differently.
CDEV, I have looked at the COMAR regulation you referenced. It specifically says “firearm” and I found no reference to a facsimile of a firearm.
KEESHA, The reality is that the superintendent and BOE probably had no knowledge of this situation until after the media got hold of the information. Minor suspensions (as determined by the number of days) is most usually handled at the principals level and goes no further. The parents have the right of appeal up the chain all the way through the local BOE and even to the State BOE if they are not satisfied with the result. I would think and hope that someone up the chain will reverse the principals decision before it is ultimately reversed by what will probably be a local BOE that is rather annoyed that they even had to deal with this matter. Superintendents and school boards are not always to blame for these types of situations, but if they fail to correct them then they certainly should share in that blame.
The question was a zero tolerence policy not applicable tothe pop tart. I now HCPS has one on weapons and misrepresentation just like they have one on drugs and misrepresentation (i.e. pretending your japanesse maple leaf is pot).
CDEV, Cite the hcps policy.
pg 19 and 20 of your calander which can be found here!
http://www.hcps.org/publicinformation/calendars/12-13/12-13HandbookCalendarWEB.pdf
Pay particular attention to the CDS policy and weapon policy and reconcile that with the Gang, Bullying and Dress Code!
Thee use of the word Administrator will in the policy manual. It is a summary of this document on which pg 13 there is no wiggle room for the principal.
http://www.hcps.org/boe/policiesprocedures/policies/content/policymanual/0208.pdf
Ridiculousness, Senator Jennings probably agrees with you. Everyone, seemingly, but those with the power to do anything about it agrees that a sensible “stop it” would be better than all of this. Those with common sense have to voice outrage some how, and Senator Jennings bill is the best way to do it. Hopefully it will get people talking about it and make an administrator think twice next time. If it actually passes, it would be the one bill of over-regulation that at least makes sense.
If these so-called “educated” individuals had exercised some common sense, we would not even be having this discussion. Apparently the number of degrees you have in inversely proportional to your level of common sense.
Common sense? That is no longer part of the requirement to work in the school system. In fact when you go to work in the school system each day it is one of the things you must leave at home. And be careful how you eat that Pop Tart.
Sadly, you are correct, Michael. I think it is because our current educators are in fear of reprisal from school officials for “thinking outside the box”. Anything not written in black and white is strictly frowned upon as it may lead to lawsuits…or better yet, “SMARTER KIDS!!!!!”
Heaven forbid we have teachers who can think on their own.
Dumb.
We need a law that you must not stop eating food once you start.
I just noticed that the outline of the states of Oklahoma and Idaho and Florida look kinda like a gun. Should we expel them from the union for 2 days? We certainly can’t reference them in Geography class or whatever they call it now.
…and Maryland looks like a buttcrack, guess we are screwed!
And West Virginia is giving you the finger!
Keesha, you are exhibiting your dislike for education. You have managed to indict a lot of good people with a careless and irresponsible comment. That is your right. Continue to hide behind your computer and spew your disrespect to the people, the majority of whom work extremely hard to do a difficult job. My question to you, How many Board of Education meetings have you attended to offer your opinion?
Monster, I’m not indicting any one. I am subjecting to ridicule the actions of people who did something stupid. I expect 8 year olds to do something stupid once in awhile. I don’t expect teachers and principals and administrators to compund the stupidity. I don’t dislike education. I dislike the minority of educators that do stupid things and by doing stupid things reflect poorly on “the majority of whom work extremely hard to do a difficult job.”
Keesha, you also are missing the point.
Well, Monster, I guess I am too.
What is the point? That she is merely injecting a sense of sarcasm to a whole scenario of events that have actually happened, and deserve to be on “America’s Dumbest Scandals”?
Before we “jump to conclusions” and blame the school/administrators, I think we need to realize that we only have one side of the story. We do not know the entire incidents that lead to these suspensions due to confidentiality issues. The only side that has been shown in the paper is the family/student’s. There may be a very good rationale behind these consequences, we are just not aware of the facts. Just because a student is young does not mean that a serious offense could not have occurred.
His apperance on O’Riley was interesting. I am not sure I agree with his dad’ view that there should have been NO consequence but suspension may have been a bit harsh.
If a student is being disruptive with his food, make him eat in a secluded area for a few days, don’t make a fool of your school system by suspending him.
No a bit more harsh than that. He clearly was aware and willfully using it like a play gun and shoting it at a person. Some counseling during detention would be in order. Alas the principal and teacher followed the policy the beef is with the BOE who set the policy. Despite his dad’s claim that the teacher singled his kid out.
Ever watch a boy play with a stick? Within 20 minutes he’ll probably point it at someone and say “bang!” or swing it like a sword.
Boys will be boys, stop thinking they should be robots. A simple “Johnny, that is not appropriate for lunch time, save it for recess or after school” works wonders.
OK but as I said this is a zero tolerance policy because at the opposite end we have a gang banger who is intimidating a kid with his fingers threatening to kill him later. We took the discression out of the principals hand with a zero tolerance policy. We treat them all the same. We are also assuming the other kid was playing along what if that is not the case. What if your kid came home upset because he was not playing and said Johnny pointed a play gun at me and said he was going to shot me. I am sure that is the kid being emotional about it but what if he is not. This is what lead us to this predicerment we stopped letting the principals and teachers make those decisions!!!! All this law does is change the consequences of the zero tolerance policy. We are still left with zero tolerance and we have tied the hands of the principal from actually removing the dangerous kid (the one who intends on intimedating someone) because now his actions can not get him suspended. A gang kid who wears a shirt to school with someone with a gun designed to do so is protected by this law from being dealt with appropriately.
I understand the intent of the legislation and support it but I think the Senator should have consulted people who actually have to implement this policy. He didn’t he created hasty legilation to react to a few specific incidents.
Furthermore if he had really looked he would see MSDE started looking at this issue a year ago in light of the Talbot county kids who had a multi-tool for LAX in their bag.
Once again you keep says there is a zero tolerance policy in this situation,. Please cite the school board policy you claim exists.
This is Anne Arundel and I am not familiar with their internal procedures but I take them at their word that one exists. I showed you the HCPS one. Most schools have one persuant to the same laws cited in the HCPS Policy manual linked above! So the Senators solution is more laws further removing the actual people in the schools ability to make decisions for themselves.
CDEV, Your commentary gives the impression that you are addressing zero tolerance policies across the entire education landscape. Your cite of HCPS policy only addressed actions regarding “real” firearms on school property as defined by state law. Everyone likes to complain about all these zero tolerance policies (that really do not exist) which is just as bad as the school administrators that think they do and overreact in situations like the pop tart student.
You realie in our state we have several layers of policy makers. We have Local BOE’s or LEA’s, we have MSDE which was tasked to make educational policy Sometimes MSDE directs all LEA’s to make a policy regarding X. MSDE has directed a policy regarding NO weapons at schools. Additionally the General Assembly makes laws directing all BOE’s to do X which has also happened in some cases they are reduntant, for example Ms. Jacobs proposed reporter law. It already exists and for teachers results in forfiture of liscencing. No where does the Principal get to make a decision. In HCPS student has weapon Principal MUST call suspend student for 10 days to superintendent who will decide what else must happen!
CDEV, At the local level the school board makes policy that sometimes must adhere to federal and state law. The superintendent develops procedure to enforce policy. In the pop tart case the principal had wide discretion over the action taken and used poor judgement in the execution of their responsibility.
I would have to read the policy manual for AACPS to know but if the policy manual says the principal will; than their is no descretion. Again I think the penelty was wrong but I don’t subscribe to the kids will be kids theory espoused by dad. Beside this bill decides what the penelties will be for certian infractions. It also assumes the parents will come in for the meeting.
Please tell me how a pop tart could have hurt anyone? Even if other incidents occurred before hand this does not warrant a suspension as disciplinary action.
Ummm, what about if it was a rasberry poptart, and he gave it to a studen that was allergic to rasberries? Only, he chewed it into the shape of a pistol before he passed out.
BOOM! WINNING!
Time to ban sticks. Reason? They represent a light saber, which is a weapon of mass destruction capable of cutting through feet of steel doors, and deflecting laser blasts.