In a closed door meeting brokered by the administration of Harford County Executive David Craig, executives of Wal-Mart met Monday with the Abingdon Community Council to discuss the company’s plans to build a Supercenter in Bel Air. Plans for the store have sparked fierce opposition from area residents.
Craig’s chief of staff, Aaron Tomarchio, said prior to the Monday meeting that it was closed to the public by both Wal-Mart and the county administration in the hopes of having a “constructive dialogue” between the community council and the company, after Wal-Mart officials were shouted down at a public input meeting on the proposed development held in July.
“It took a lot to get [Wal-Mart] to the table,” Tomarchio said, describing Wal-Mart officials as being “horrified” at the tone of the public input meeting, where residents objected to the traffic and other effects from the mega- store. Tomarchio said the company agreed to the meeting because they were asked to do so by the Craig administration and because they were “taken aback by the ferocity of the opposition.”
The Bel Air South Community Foundation, a community group formed to oppose the Bel Air Wal-Mart, learned about the closed door meeting hours before it was to take place and called for a protest outside the county offices where the meeting was to be held. The group posted a Facebook message on Monday afternoon decrying the lack of transparency and blaming Craig for excluding Bel Air residents:
“Let our elected County Executive, who has refused to have a public meeting on this subject with his constituents, the folks who live here and HE is responsible too , that ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and it is time to hold him accountable for not stepping up to the plate and at least signing the petition opposing the WalMart, or even inviting anyone from Bel Air to be a part of this meeting. This is why, more then ever, a Bel Air Community Council is necessary! ….Please come out and let them know this lack of transparency and openness is suspect at best, sinister at worst!”
Abingdon resident Steve Tobia questioned why groups such as the Bel Air South Community Foundation were not given a seat at the table. Tobia, a volunteer with the group, expressed concern that the meeting would not be about stopping Wal-Mart, but would instead focus on concessions the company might make as they move forward with the new store. Asking why the meeting was limited to the Abingdon Community Council, Tobia said, “Who is representing the people?”
Community council members are appointed in Harford County by the county executive to act as a liaison between the administration and the community; council members must live in the area they represent. The Abingdon Community Council serves an area south of Bel Air that encompasses the proposed store site.
Tomarchio said that Monday’s gathering was the first time the county set up a meeting between a community council and a developer, and that the council was intended to represent the “voice of the people”. He said the council had been gathering input from area residents and that groups such as the Bel Air South Community Foundation could channel their input through the community council.
Asked Monday whether the Abingdon Community Council had gathered community input for the meeting planned for later in the day, Chairperson Cynthia Hergenhahn said she was not at liberty to speak about the meeting and declined to comment further.
Wal-Mart plans to close its Abingdon store and build a Supercenter in Bel Air on an undeveloped parcel south of Plumtree Road along MD Route 924. The store would include an automotive center, pharmacy with drive-thru, groceries (with a separate market entrance), garden center, and screening in back for building services. The new store could be open 24 hours a day, with traffic ranging up to 10,000 trips per day, according to company officials.
Although county zoning allows for a Wal-Mart at the Bel Air site, County Executive David Craig met earlier this year with company officials to persuade them to expand at their Abingdon location rather than open in Bel Air. Tomarchio noted that the company had a right to make the move, and although there were still hurdles in the development process, he said that talks with Craig did not alter the company’s plans.
In an effort to thwart the Bel Air store, the Harford County Council last week approved a resolution calling for the State Highway Administration to deny Wal-Mart access from Rte. 924, the proposed main entrance to the store, “due to the unsafe conditions it would create for the surrounding community.” Tomarchio said that while the move was an act of support by the county council, it would have little effect on the SHA, which will review the project “by the book.”
Prior to the meeting Monday, Tomarchio said that he expected the meeting between Wal-Mart and the Abingdon Community Council to focus on three topics: why Wal-Mart can’t expand at its Abingdon location instead of moving to Bel Air; expressions that the company is not wanted in the Bel Air community; and if the Bel Air store moves forward, what the community does and does not want it to entail. Tomarchio said that notes from the meeting would be taken by the county and made available for publication.
Meeting Report
Abingdon Community Council member Carlin Cook attended the meeting and said that he and his fellow council members repeatedly told Wal-Mart that the community did not want the company to move from Abingdon to Bel Air. Wal-Mart officials were surprised by the community opposition and appeared to want input on the Bel Air store, Cook said, but they seemed resolute about the move from Abingdon. Company officials told council members that their business plans called for expansion and expansion at the Abingdon site was “not cost effective,” Cook said.
A list of concerns gathered by the Abingdon Community Council was also provided to Wal-Mart at the meeting. Cook said the list was provided in the event that county and state officials allowed the Bel Air store to proceed. Among the concerns listed were traffic, safety, store lighting, and environmental concerns. The community council also asked that store hours be limited; that the sale of guns and ammunition be banned; and that campers and squatters not be allowed overnight. Security cameras were requested to be on at all times.
As for the Abingdon store, the community council asked the company to provide upkeep of the vacant property and find a viable retail use within three years or convey the property to the county.
Cook said that company officials listened and said they would look into some of the proposals. Additional meetings are planned between the community council and the company, Cook said, following a Development Advisory Committee meeting scheduled for Oct. 17.
Below is the full report provided to Wal-Mart officials by the Abingdon Community Council:
ABINGDON COMMUNITY COUNCIL
PROPOSED WALMART AGREEMENT
The Abingdon Community strongly prefers that Walmart remain in its current location.
Possible ways to expand at the current location include:
• Build a multiple level parking garage.
• Buy the storage facility next door and use it to expand the current store.
• Put the garden department on the roof, as part of a green roof to reduce the foot print of the store.
Whether Walmart rebuilds at the current Abingdon location or builds at the new location, the community’s priorities are the same and will be listed in a Good Neighbor Agreement.
Good Neighbor Agreements
Good Neighbor Agreements are instruments that provide a vehicle for community organizations and a corporation to recognize and formalize their roles within a locality. The purpose of these agreements is to foster sustainable development in a community by reconciling economic development with the community’s welfare, including the health of its environment and its individual members. Since the first such agreement was signed in 1978 in Worcester, Massachusetts, several agreements have been signed in the U.S.
All of the issues included are considered vital commitments to meeting the needs of local residents and important for any large retailer interested in being a partner in the success of our community. We believe that the only way to truly commit to those priorities is with a legally binding agreement with the community.
The Abingdon Community seeks the following, in good faith, from Walmart.
1. No tax incentives Often the county lets a new business have tax breaks for 10-15 years. This should not qualify as a “new” business in Harford County and full taxes should be paid.
2. Surrounding infrastructure
Walmart, the Community, Harford County and the State of Maryland will agree, in advance, on all infrastructure additions and improvements needed at the Route 924 site.
Walmart will fund the initial cost of all infrastructure additions and improvements. Walmart will fund maintenance of this infrastructure for five years after the rebuilt or new store open. The community’s primary infrastructure concerns include:
a. Limit the increase in traffic volume on Route 924. Consider eliminating the auto center or drive up pharmacy to reduce traffic volume
b. Only allow right turns into Walmart from 924 and out of Walmart onto 924. No left turns from 924 into Walmart or onto 924 when leaving Walmart.
c. Install breakaway traffic signals in all directions to facilitate Fire and Police response in case of emergency.
d. Erect pedestrian bridges over both Routes 924 and 24 to accommodate pedestrian traffic of school children, customers and neighborhood residents.
3. Limit environmental damage to the Plumtree Run Watershed and the Atkisson Reservoir
Walmart’s proposed new site sits directly above a section of the Plumtree Run Watershed, which is designated by Harford County as a “sensitive” area. Walmart stores its chemicals and garden products outside, waters plants and cleans its facility, all of which contribute to water runoff from the site, damaging the watershed. Walmart should add an efficient water filtration system to collect all rainwater and drainage from the site. The Plumtree Run watershed already shows evidence of increased sedimentation due to construction activities, stream channel erosion in response to increased storm water runoff, and an overall increase in pollutant loadings due to the conversion from forest and cultivated land to residential and commercial land uses.
Harford County’s Department of Public Works Water Resources Engineering has prepared Watershed Management Plans focused on identifying and correcting water quality problems.
4. Site light, trees and shrubbery Plantings should be of mature trees and shrubs, with a large investment in pleasing aesthetics to encourage a community gathering environment. All lighting should be the most current LED with no overflow light going past the property into the roadway or into the surrounding community.
5. Security The store will have manned surveillance cameras both inside and outside 24/7. Walmart will hire overnight security guards for inside and outside of the store.
6. Restrictions
a. No sales of any guns or ammunition at this location
b. No camper parking or squatters on property over night
c. Store Hours to be reduced to 7am to 11pm
The Empty Location:
We would like to see the vacant store at the Constant Friendship location converted into viable retail within 3 years or the property deeded to the County for their use.
As long as the property is empty and no development takes place, we expect Walmart to maintain, clean and protect, with 24 hour security, the empty parcel and building
Wording from a Good Neighbor agreement in Washington DC is included below. The Abingdon Community would like these same considerations in their Agreement.
The Washington DC agreement can be found at:
http://www.respectdc.org/wp-content/uploads/CBA-Executive-Summary-For-Web.pdf http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/blog/2011/11/wal-mart-dc-strike-community.html?page=all
Traffic/Transportation/Infrastructure provisions include:
– Walmart will fund all infrastructure improvements made necessary by its stores based on assessments by the Harford County government for a period of 5 years after store opens
– Walmart will commit to responsible ongoing traffic alleviation studies and measures that promote walkability and increase the quality of life for residents such as pedestrian bridges over 24 and 924
Parking provisions include:
– Walmart will provide secure, accessible bicycle parking for workers and visitors consistent with Harford County’s draft pedestrian and bicycle paths.
Security provisions include:
– Walmart shall employ no less than two security police officers on its premises at all times overnight, stationed in locations determined by input from a community advisory board in the ward where the store is located.
– Walmart shall not sell firearms or ammunition at this location
-Manned surveillance cameras both inside and outside of the store 7×24.
Standard of Living — The enforceable community benefits agreement will include the following provisions designed to prevent the negative wage and employment impact Walmart stores in other locations have been proven to have:
Employment Standard provisions include:
– Walmart will pay every employee wages competitive with nearby retail/grocery and provide affordable health benefits
– Walmart will employ at least 65 percent of the employees on a full-time, 40 hour per week basis.
– Walmart will abide by a code of conduct with regard to its employees’ freedom to choose a voice on the job without interference from their employer.
Local Hiring provisions include:
– Walmart will use first source hiring: at least 75% percent of its employees will be Harford County residents.
Responsible, Local Contracting provisions include:
– Walmart will ensure that the store is constructed with local contractors, materials and manpower.
– Walmart will ensure that it contracts with vendors, advertising agencies, and other service providers (such as janitorial and maintenance service providers) that are locally-based, and that agree to binding “responsible contractor” codes of conduct, to be defined by community stakeholders.
Support for Small Business provisions include:
– Walmart will provide ongoing contributions to a fund managed by a council of community stakeholders that will provide incentives and support to area small businesses with amounts to be determined in consultation with community stakeholders.
– Walmart will provide advertising and business opportunities to Harford County small businesses to be determined in consultation with community stakeholders.
Healthy Communities — The enforceable community benefits agreement will include the following provisions designed to ensure that its stores have a positive impact on surrounding neighborhoods, the city as a whole, and the region:
Environmental provisions include:
– Walmart will use Green Building whenever possible
– Walmart shall match storm water retention standards through use of green infrastructure techniques to help clean up area rivers and creeks. (water filtration system)
– Walmart will abide by architectural standards developed in consultation with community stakeholders including building in conformity with area historical preservation standards, erecting trees/noise barriers between its stores and nearby homes, and funding the development of green spaces and parks nearby.
-Walmart will keep it interior and exterior clean, orderly and free of trash with ongoing maintained
Community Support provisions include:
– Walmart will provide substantial ongoing yearly funding for community funds controlled by community advisory councils.
– These funds will be designated for use by education programs, arts programs, recreation programs, programs for elderly residents, faith-based programs, and other programs to be determined by community stakeholders.
Specific ways to support the Abingdon community include:
Naming of the new Arts Center, to be built ½ mile from your proposed site
Fund an early literacy center in our library system
Funding of the Childhood obesity task force, Healthy Harford, or perhaps initiate a new obesity fighting program
Fund and Maintain Graham Park, again close to your site
Fund our local food pantry
We encourage you to review the attached pictures taken of your recently built Walmart. We would propose a similar feel to your store no matter which location you choose.
The Abingdon Community Council wishes to be a partner from this point on through the construction and the many years of community partnerships we expect from the Walmart Corporation
Please explain to me where there is a brokered deal? Good reporting, misleading headline. Looks to be an intentional attempt to defame the county executives office. Being that Ms. Mumby has been an outspoken opponent of the bel air walmart, her authoring this story discredits it.
There is no “brokered deal” in the headline. The headline references a meeting that was arranged by the Craig administration, as I report in detail in the story.
Your personal attacks on me are baseless.
Personal attacks are what these people do best.
Please just clarify for me who ‘these people’ are. Obviously Abingdon Res has demonstarted an inability to read and comprehend but who are ‘these people’?
And I have demonstrated an inability to use a spell checker. Demonstarted = demonstrated.
ALEX: If the shoe fits…
I didn’t get that out of the headline.
All these citizens opposing this Wal-Mart should sign agreements to never shop there. It’s coming whether you like it or not.
I am amazed at what the Abingdon CC is suggesting/demanding of Wal-Mart for both keeping the big box in its’ current location or planned move to Bel Air. Mr. Craig’s handling of this whole situation has been unfortunate and raises real questions about how he would govern as governor. Several recent decisions certainly provide a great deal of fodder for other Republicans also considering a run for the governors office.
Since the Bel Air South Community Foundation is whining about fairness in representation at this meeting, who was at this meeting representing the members of the community who want the new store built? So then they call for a protest! Did they feel like they were occupying the dean’s office and taking over the student union because they were left out?
And the Abingdon Community Council demands such as pedestrian bridges over both 24 and 924 and no sales of guns or ammo (which are legally permitted) have crossed over into ridiculousness. Stunts like this cheapen all of the reasonable requests and make it hard to take them seriously.
No ammo??? That’s dumb. Where will I buy ammo to target shoot? Who are these clowns making this stuff up…
That is actually in line with Federal law not allowing ammo or guns to be sold within a certain distance of a school. There are multiple schools very close by, both public and private.
Two separate exemptions apply from section 1702 of the Crime Control Act of 1990, subparagraph (B):
“(i) on private property not part of school grounds;”
and
“(iii) [A firearm] that is— (I) not loaded; and (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;”
What does that have to do with a retail store? Do you have a link to the entire code?
The firearm is being sold in a retail store on private property and is not part of the Patterson Mill Campus!
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=section+1702+of+the+Crime+Control+Act+of+1990
You said federal law prohibits the sale of firearms near a school, it does not restrict the sale, but the act of possession under specific circumstances and being located on private land is an exemption.
No ammo??? That’s dumb. Where will I buy ammo to target shoot? Who are these clowns making this stuff up…
Walmart has never done anything to support our local community. It’s all about taking as many resources as they can and cannibalizing the businesses that Harford County was built on. While the idea of a fund to support small business seems honorable I fail to see how this will impact the families that make their living in the area. I’m talking about the family that owns Highs who work tireless hours to provide for their family. What about the additional impact on Courtland Hardware, Boyd and Fulford, Preston’s, Mar’s Food, Shoprite/Kleins, etc. David Craig’s lasting legacy in Harford county will be–educator, County Executive, friend of developers, and man that left Harford County with the highest vacancy rate ever.
Would that be the High’s that is based in Hanover? And are you referring to Shop Rite / Wakefern? I agree that some of the firms that you mention are really local and they will survive or not depending on how they manage their businesses. What is the biggest challenge facing Boyd & Fulford? I suggest it is that the Town of Bel Air has not managed it’s parking problems well. Courtland has managed around the parking problem by having the foresight to relocate to a place where they can provide parking. Over the decades the large chains have made it almost impossible for the small locals to continue in business IF they are poorly managed. Been in Preston’s recently? A shadow of its former self because of poor planning and poor management. They have the location and they have the parking but they haven’t had management with the ability to plan strategically.
D., you want to blame David Craig for trying to help in this situation? Where were you when this zoning was legally changed to make it possible for Walmart or others to locate there? Were you in Harford County? Sleeping? Shopping at big box stores?
“The community council also asked that store hours be limited; that the sale of guns and ammunition be banned; and that campers and squatters not be allowed overnight”
I can see the first one, but they’re complaining about a store in a supposedly (according to the nearby residents) “rural” area not having firearms or ammunition for sale, or allowing RVers the safety of resting at their store (vs a seedy truck stop). Both of those are characteristics of “rural” life.
Walmart is already returning firearms to many stores they had previously removed them from (or did not have them originally) from sale, because they found that in today’s economy, ammo and firearms are hot-selling items. How many shootings have occured in the parking lot of the three current WalMarts, or how many times have any of the stores been found not in compliance with every law concerning the sale of firearms or ammunition?
Firearms are also a Constitutional right per the Supreme Court in DC v Heller, are the Abingdon residents also going to demand poster board, Sharpies, books, religious materials, birth-control, “offensive” CDs or DVDs, etc, be banned from the store? Nearby residents shouldn’t get to pick and choose which of the shoppers’ rights they want to acknowledge.
Kharn, I do not see how requesting one store not sell guns and ammo infringes on your 2nd ammendment rights, no one is saying you cannot keep your guns or buy your ammo elsewhere. I think you are exaggerating with your statement and/or being a little paranoid. That really doesn’t help your cause.
That being said, I think they are looking at the Federal Free School Zone Gun Act of 1990 which tries to limit gun and ammo sales witin a half mile of a school (PMMS and PMHS.) I don’t believe that’s going work as that was declared unconstitutional. Additionally, Dick’s also sells guns and ammo and that is less than 1/2 mile from BAHS, BAMS and HWES.
They requested the store not sell guns and ammo. Request will be denied. End of story. I request they not sell junk food. My request will not only be denied but ridiculed. End of that story as well.
Interesting how the focus has now shifted away from IF Walmart builds to WHEN they will be open and WHAT they will do and sell after they build.
I do like the question as to why people who want Walmart to come were not invited. Kudos to Craig for getting this meeting arranged. If it had been O’Malley then Walmart would have very diplomatically and politely flipped him the bird. Of course O’Malley wouldn’t have had the time to arrange the meeting with him being so busy and all running around campaigning for what’s his name while being paid by Maryland taxpayers.
And that being said where are the demands from this same group for those businesses to stop selling firearms and ammunition as well? Can we see the ridiculousness of this request in a free society that is supposed to be governed by laws, which Wal-Mart has not broken but this group would impose? I am sympathetic to the community but when they start making these kinds of requests/demands undermine potential support.
Citizens are taking their cue from our President. Obama just issues an executive order circumventing the law when he does not like the law. Many of our citizens are following that lead. They believe that laws only apply to them if they like the result…don’t like the result, disregard the law.
So…….The anti-walmart folks are all Obama supporters? I love how some people take a local zoning issue and find a way to make it national election issue. BTW you are not the only one to do this!
CDEV – you’re reaching with that one. an astute comparison was made by Mr. Welsh, and you took his remark and ran off a cliff with it. nowhere in his comment did he liken the anti-walmart group to obama supporters. he just pointed out a similarity in tactics used by both. don’t be a victim.
Jeff
Jeff my point is that Obama has nothing to do with this. People (more than one) are reaching to include and blame poloticians from one party for this. I have seen comments about this being Obama and O’Malley’s fault from more than one person. They have nothing to do with local zoning. What has everything to do with this is the ambivolence of people to be engadged at the begining.
The Community Council started 20 months ago. Some of those projects pre-date it’s existence.
just curious, but what is the answer to these questions you asked?
How many shootings have occured in the parking lot of the three current WalMarts, or how many times have any of the stores been found not in compliance with every law concerning the sale of firearms or ammunition?
Many Baltimore area Walmarts do not carry firearms and at least one does not even sell ammo. The request for no gun sales has been made and agreed to before.
Yes, such agreements have been previously made, in urban areas to combat crime.
Is Abingdon urban or rural; does it have a crime problem?
That depends on who you are asking.
Ask Edgewood and Forrest Hill if Abingdon is crime ridden.
According to the SHA 924 is a minor aterial Urban Collector.
Ironic isn’t it – they don’t sell ammo to combat crime. How’s that work’n out for the City? They get Wal-Mart and the crime! Does anyone really think these meatheads are buying their ammo legally? I know – it feels better if they don’t sell certain things so some will make noise about this issue as it becomes inevitable that Wal-Mart will build where it wants. In the end, limiting what they can sell may feel good to some but it has no effect on the community.
According to the latest figures as reported in a just released DAGGER article Harford is the second safest county in the state. For a variety of reasons there is no need to make such a request nor should Wal-Mart honor one.
Just what we need – more guns and ammo on the streets courtesy Wal-Mart.
All you ever do is complain about Harford County. Quit your job, pack your carpet bag and go home if Jersey is that much better.
This isn’t a Harford County issue – its an issue of more guns being sold across the street from a residential neighborhood. It’s a safety issue for all, and we don’t need our children put at risk with schools and many homes almost a stone’s throw from the proposed site. I’d have this same comment whether we were in MD, NJ or anywhere else. Safety of our children should be everyone’s #1 concern.
All three of the existing Wal-Marts in Harford county are in close proximity to residential neighborhoods. That argument does not make sense.
The existing site already sells guns and Ammo and is within one mile of a ton of town houses and an Elementary School! Was it a problem then?
Jim – not true. Fallston Walmart is close to a limited number of townhomes but the entrance is along what’s strictly a commercial boulevard. The one in Aberdeen has zero residences around it and the entrance is off 40. This proposed Walmart is much closer to homes and subdivisions than any existing big box store including Targets, Home Depots and the like and it’s proposed ingress/egress is a street that empties into neighborhoods. It’s really quite a different scenario.
So because the parking lot entrance is closer to the residential neighborhood, it is a problem?
Do you really think being 2-3 blocks further away will stop someone that is intent on using their firearm for illicit purposes?
MoneyTree makes some good points (as usual) about why this Walmart is different from the other two, but I’m not sure those points have any relevance on the gun issue as was pointed out by others.
The only significant difference here is that the proposed site is literally across the street from a school. A huge school. Seems like that’s worth talking about.
Given that gun ownership is very popular in Harford County, it would likewise be a popular sales category for Walmart. Both important facts to consider.
Infringement of rights to bear arms are exaggerated because there are plenty of places you could do that, and it would be unfair to “force” Walmart not to sell guns as other businesses already do it, but if Walmart agrees to it for whatever reasons they want to cite then whatever, that’s their decision I guess. Now the other side would want to tell them how to run their business? Yeah, exactly.
This isn’t just about firearms; it’s so much more than firearms. It boils down to simple livability for the folks who will be unfortunate to live in the vicinity of the proposed store. Imagine having an endless stream of vehicles honking, turning around, stopping and starting…throwing cigarette butts and garbage out thier car windows and generally doing things people do in cramps areas but now it’ll end up in somebody’s front yard. If we gave two craps about our neighbors it’d be acknowledged and affirmed.
Money Tree —
People live in the townhomes behind the Fallston Walmart — I would consider that a residential neighborhood. There are also homes across Rt. 1 on the property where the old hospital was.
In Constant Friendship, the walmart is within walking distance of a huge amount of homes on Tollgate Road. not to mention Abingdon Elementary School.
In Aberdeen, the Walmart is across Rt. 40 from Edmund street and a large residential neighborhood that includes Hillsdale Elementary School.
You can not simply say “Not true” simply because you don’t like the truth.
@The Money Tree It doesn’t make any difference about access and egress. The point was made that residential areas are very near by. I wish people would just have the courage to come out and say they are against guns or for gun control if that is what they believe and stop using are these peripheral arguments.
Hey Moneytree,
“Jim – not true. Fallston Walmart is close to a limited number of townhomes but the entrance is along what’s strictly a commercial boulevard. The one in Aberdeen has zero residences around it and the entrance is off 40. This proposed Walmart is much closer to homes and subdivisions than any existing big box store including Targets, Home Depots and the like and it’s proposed ingress/egress is a street that empties into neighborhoods. It’s really quite a different scenario.” – This is not quite accurate. The Walmart in Aberdeen is near a couple of house, though not many. It does, however, have a second entrance not on Route 40 which these homes use as well.
The Target in Aberdeen is only a couple hundred feet to the northwest of a community. The Home Depot in Edgewood is across a little side street from a large community of homes. Both the Target in Aberdeen and the Home Depot in Edgewood are closer to homes as opposed to the new Walmart’s proposed location.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Jim – I know those neighborhoods. Certainly don’t want to get in a tit for tat argument but you can’t possibly if honest with yourself compare Walmart in Aberdeen which nearly stands alone and right off Rte. 40 or the Walmart in Fallston that was approved as an exception specifically because of those adjactent townhouses being targeted for the 50+ crowd and right off Rte 1 (I clearly remember the line being pushed was the old folks needed a place to shop without getting in thier cars) – I’d add the townhouses located on the old hospital grounds aren’t even along the same road – that’s nearly a mile away unless you’re talking as the crow flies and if so, then it has nothing to do with with this conversation about traffic. My issue with Walmart at Plumtree has to do with infrastructure and traffic and not wishing my neighbors, fellow citizens of this county be left in a mess because our council, our gov’t leaders and us too; all of us that don’t pay attention dropped the ball.
Money Tree
You hit the nail on the head that people dropped the ball. But that would suggest that this whole matter was an innocent mistake, oversight, or misunderstanding of how the property would be used. I might buy that from those in the community that sought changing the zoning but the members of the county council and the county executive do not warrant such consideration. Everyone needs to remember who approved the current zoning and hold them accountable at the next election. Not only to depose them from their current office but not to elect them to any other.
I think it’s fair to say that the existing three Walmarts are sited in their neighborhoods noticeably different from the proposed one. Fallston is a bad example because anyone moving into the townhomes behind it knows about the Walmart, whereas people in Bright Oaks, etc, were there first. If it’s your house, that makes a difference.
I wasn’t aware of a second entrance to Aberdeen, so I learned something, but its positioning on US1, a major interstate road, is a little bit different than 924, a main intrastate road.
And it’s just not useful for anyone to make comparisons with numerous other situations around the county. I’ve pointed out before that the Home Depot in Bel Air is literally right across the street from a neighborhood– but the main entrance is not and there is a clear buffer between them. There’s a difference.
However, the main point is that not only is this one situated immediately across the street from a neighborhood, but it’s also the main entrance. It’s entirely reasonable for the people who live there (I’m not one of them) to be concerned about that. Were the people at the other sites concerned? Maybe, maybe not, but I think most of us would be a little worried about having a 186,000 sq ft building that draws 10,000 cars a day across the street from our house.
Does that we mean we stop everything cause a few hundred people are unhappy? Of course not, but they have a right to be heard.
Not that any of that has anything to do with guns.
Absolutely Noble…and the primary ingress/egress Rds are 2 lanes both directions for each of the other Walmarts. I think what makes this move so much different is what you just touched upon – which came first the Walmart or the neighborhood. When the big box is first appropriate measures can be taken to sheild the residents from the blight and traffic issues through more strategic design to both the residences and roads, but when the big box moves into an already established neighborhood you’re locked in and it will always look and feel like a shoehorned fit – not appropriate for the space. That neighborhood begs for smaller retail – certainly not a megastore.
HEY BRAH, DID YOU GET A MARYLAND DRIVERS LISCENSE YET? I STILL SEE A LOT OF NEWJERSEY PLATES, IT’S FOR THE CHILDREN.
I know NJ gun laws are tough but that did not make Newark much safer.
Guns are not the problem, people are the problem.
Moneytree and Noble the people in those already existing neighborhoods should have paid attention to all those re zoning signs! They didn’t. In fact some of them wanted it rezoned.
The firearms restriction is not about limiting gun access. It is not about the kids. Notice all the items on that list are all the things Wal-mart does that Target doesn’t! Anyone who has paid attention to the Constant Friendship location will note a very empty Wal-Mart parking lot. It has been this way for a while and Target has done very good. I am sure that is part of their desire to move. I would be willing to bet some items on this list are there to try to keep Wal-mart from wanting to move. People are worried about Firearms near a school now? What about Abingdon Elementary, and thousands of town houses all of which are located within a mile!
I guess living in New Jersey all those years brainwashes you. “Guns on the streets” What a load of bullshit.
It’s for the children? That phrase is so played out like driving around for a a year in Maryland with your New Jersey License plate. HERP DURP
For or against a Wal-Mart aside, it seems hypocritical to be a BRAC family and anti-gun at the same time.
Hi folks,
The Abingdon council has repeatedly asked for input from all members of the community for the last few months. We are very aware that many members of the community support the relocation of the store, but the majority of the input we received did not support it. The bullet point items listed in the article above that were presented to Walmart included all but a very very few of the many suggestions and requests we received from community input, whether or not we agreed they were good ideas or reasonable requests. Our goal, and our purpose is to represent the community and that list reflects the input from the community. Some of the ideas originated from council members, but many did not. It was important to send as much of this input to Walmart officials as possible. That was our task and responsibility to the community.
Also, the Abingdon council requested that other members of the community be involved in the meeting but our request was denied. If there are subsequent meetings however, we are hopeful that will change.
If people have other ideas, comments, or suggestions, please contact us to let us know, at abingdoncc at gmail.com or on Facebook.
Detailed minutes were taken and will be compiled and made available as soon as possible. This release of minutes was also largely due to our insistance for transparancy, and the administration fully supported it.
Transparency by the Craig administration – your kidding? Secret purchases of land for a waste transfer station at millions more than the property was worth, behind closed door deals to give taxpayer money to support expansion of a multimillion dollar business, last minute amendments to the budget to create a new employee classification in the sheriffs’ office to reward a few, trampling over the needs of others to get a new high school in his home town. Just some the more recent examples.
The Abingdon Community Council is composed of citizens that care enough about the community to serve as unpaid volunteers and charged to be a liason between citizens and the administration. Having the opportunity to meet with decision makers on a project this large, and highly opposed, is unprecedented and should be welcomed as an opportunity for the community voice to be heard freely without filters from any politician. We are committed to keeping the citizens informed as to both our efforts and outcomes, on this issue, and others that are already in the hopper.
Walmart was hesitant to come to this meeting because of the tone of the CIM meeting in July being so hostile and Mr. Craig was able to bring us together to have an open dialogue. It was a productive and positive meeting and we expect to meet with them again in the future.
As Mr. Grey stated above, we incorporated what the community has told us at our meetings, in emails and phone calls. The best way to be sure your views are represented is to be involved in the process and attend our meetings and communicate with us.
But the restrictions the ACC tries to enforce against Walmart will not only affect those that live next door, but all of the shoppers that will visit the store (I guess you could get Walmart to agree to no firearm/ammo sales to anyone with an Abingdon driver’s license, if you were worried about firearms in your community). The ACC should not be able to force restrictions on the sale of legal products, especially products already for sale at other Abingon businesses.
The ACC has no authority to enforce anything on Walmart. What was presented were comments made by the community as a sort of wish list to be used as a starting point for a possible Community Agreement if the project is approved. Obviously not all of those items would be included or agreed to any agreement based on the combined costs alone. Walmart does not have to enter into anything. If their plans meet the legal requirements and is approved that is all they are legally required to do.
“Walmart does not have to enter into anything. If their plans meet the legal requirements and is approved that is all they are legally required to do.”
Then why should they even consider your proposed terms? What benefit does the ACC offer in exchange for the proposed restrictions on Walmart’s business?
Kharn, this is like the Democratic Party’s view of compromise: “Here’s what we want. Be bipartisan and agree to it or you are being unreasonable.”
Where can I call to give my feedback as a resident of Abingdon? What e-mails are set up? Other then hosting meetings what outreach did you do to gain this perspective or is this group think?
abingdoncc@gmail.com is the email address for the Abingdon Community Council. You can write there and also ask to be put on the email list which sends out regular newsletters and email blasts. Meeting dates, locations and topics are posted on various local media such as The Aegis, harfordneighbors.net Patch and others. There is also a Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/abingdoncc?fref=ts We are limited because the community councils cannot receive any funds according to the bylaws.
Leaders of the Bel Air South Community Foundation have attended recent meetings and comments made at the meeting, as well as Friends of Harford and other citizens. BASCF has also informed the community of our ongoing meetings in their emails, their Facebook group and flyers.
There is an ACC meeting EVERY MONTH. Be there, aloha.
Hi Cdev,
As I stated above, you can email us, abingdoncc at gmail.com
We have had public meetings on the 4th Monday of every month for the last 20 months. Notice of these meetings is made to our email list, our Facebook page, on the county website, in print and online media, community bulletin boards, and summaries have been featured here on The Dagger. Meetings contain multiple topics impacting the community but are generally focused on one– only our August 2012 meeting was focused on this issue. There is also an open forum portion of each meeting where members of the community can raise any relevant issue in the community.
We received feedback from the community for over the last year at our meetings since the rumors started, and we actively solicited that feedback on this specific issue since the July 19th CIM meeting through our meetings, public and private messages on Facebook and our email address. The minutes of these meetings where we asked for this community input are available on the Facebook page and the county website.
Our council is not intended to be nor desires to be a political body. We want to represent the community in the most undistilled way we can and you will see that when we issued our statement opposing the relocation it was on the basis of two things: 1) members of the council identified serious concerns with the plan being sumitted and 2) compared to any other issue we have discussed, the community had a clear voice that opposed this move and parts of the proposal
At any given time, as we are now, we are actively monitoring and working on various issues in the Abingdon area such as development, traffic safety, crime, community events, and so on. Every few days we get requests from the public for help with all kinds of issues in their neighborhood. We work on turn lanes, cross walks, parking concerns and all the way up to the 2 apartment complexes in the pipe now, to the ongoing items at the Boulevard at Box Hill and this issue with Walmart. It is a lot of work for a small handful of people to manage and make time out of our busy lives to attend all the public meetings most others are not even aware of, but we do it only because we want what is best for this community.
We would love the feedback and participation of as many members of our community as possible, because we don’t want to be making decisions for you, but with you, and we do that by sharing as much information as possible and getting feedback from our fellow residents.
Hope to see you at our next meeting on October 22nd, 6:30pm at the Abingdon Library.
Hey Joan L Hamilton and Earl Grey,
I am curious about this. If say, a number of people go to your next meeting and state their support for Walmart moving to the new location and for guns and ammo to be sold there, would the Abingdon Community Council then ask for a meeting with Walmart to let them know that they were now in favor of such things?
Or, are the members of the council simply using this council to further their own thoughts and ideas?
Anyways, have a nice day.
Earl I ask because I attended the August Meeting and kept my mouth shut! I immediately got the sense that anyone in favor or ambivelant to the relocation was not welcome.
Paul: Allow me to answer you supercilious question: in a democracy the majority rules. Therefore, if the majority of the ACC is in favor of Wal Mart moving to the new location and for guns and ammo to be sold there, that is what they would do. You see the members of that council are expressing their thoughts and ideas because that is what is done when the majority expresses them.
Does that clarify things for you?
Hi Paul MC,
That is a fair, if somewhat cynical question to pose. As I stated above we felt that the fairest thing to do was simply pass along the feedback of nearly all of the requests and comments we got from the community. We all reviewed and approved the document submitted to Walmart, but we did not discuss or “vote” to include or remove ideas from the people we are appointed to represent. In general we thought the best thing to do was to submit to Walmart any remotely productive item and work through everything as talking points.
To be sure, as I already said, there are people who support the idea of a new store at Plumtree. However, we did not hear from those people in the numbers that we heard from those opposed to it. And it seems pretty obvious since Walmart conducted it’s own research and outreach that there are people who support their move– they don’t need to hear that from us.
By all means, I would invite you to contact us or even better come to one of our meetings and state your case and engage your fellow neighbors in conversation about this issue. That’s why we have the meetings.
Hey Proud,
First, the question was not meant to appear that I was superior to anyone, however, I appreciate you thinking I am superior. I know what happens in a democracy, though, that was not the question. As for the reasons why the council are expressing their viewpoints, what the citizens of the community feel may or may not be the reason. It is simply the reason they use. I am not saying it isn’t the reason, there may or may not be other reasons that play into their decisions.
@Earl Grey,
Thank you for the response. Yes, I am a bit cynical, no denying that. A follow up to your response:
Should the supporters of the Walmart move become more organized, and should the support for the move equal or exceed those against the move, would the Abingdon Community Council then change their submission to Walmart?
Anyways, have a nice day.
@Cdev,
I can understand why you might have felt that way at that particular meeting. Keep in mind that was after many months of discussion at our meetings, after the CIM meeting in July, and after carefully reviewing the plan Walmart publicized, that we felt we needed to make a statement opposing the relocation for the reasons cited earlier. Because of our statement, and the remote possibility for the chance to bring community concerns directly to Walmart, we decided to dedicate the August meeting to that issue. As a result, many many people attended that meeting who were opposed– it was our largest meeting so far. It was a little heated and we tried to manage it the best we could. There are some meetings where not everyone, including council members, get to bring up every topic, point, or opinion that comes to mind, and that’s where we hope you would contact us after the meeting to give your input. If you sign in and we can read your handwriting, you will be added to our e-mailing list, to which you can reply at any time.
For all those who question our goals, keep in mind we volunteered, we are not political appointments. We are just people in your neighborhood who want to be engaged and to engage the community in local concerns.
@ Paul MC,
I think in this particular issue we are going to see that the window for “public comment” is closing, and that kind of shift would probably not be a factor at some point. Keep in mind that “support” for the new store location does not always equal “support” for the plans they have submitted. There’s a 600 page traffic study. All of the council members have read portions of it. This is a very large and complex issue that goes deeeper than just for and against, and we think our “position statement” reflects that nuance.
But your larger point is not lost on us. We have thoughtfully debated internally, based on the by-laws given to us by the county, how are we to navigate these issues and determine our role in the community. On one hand, we want to be a voice for the community. On the other, we volunteered to do this because we care and if we believe that something is right or wrong for our community, for our families, we are going to be, and have a right be a voice for our own concerns as well, just as anybody else would want to do.
Moreover, we seek information and dialogue– things that are lost in most public discourse of the day. If people reach out to us and make reasonable arguments for whatever position they take, we will be grateful for that input because it moves the dialogue forward.
PAUL: You need a dictionary; supercilious does not mean “superior.”
Hey Proud,
“PAUL: You need a dictionary; supercilious does not mean “superior.”” -From google:su·per·cil·i·ous/?so?op?r?sil??s/
Adjective: Behaving or looking as though one thinks one is superior to others.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul: Just like a Republican, you cherry pick what you want to believe. Definition of SUPERCILIOUS: coolly and patronizingly haughty Origin of SUPERCILIOUS Latin superciliosus, from supercilium eyebrow, haughtiness, from super- + -cilium eyelid.
You can’t tell the difference between being superior and “…behaving or looking as though one thinks one is superior to others.” The operative word is “thinks one is superior”. Really, do I have to educate you in basic English?
Hey Proud,
“Paul: Just like a Republican” – I am not a Republican.
“you cherry pick what you want to believe.” – So, because I take the first definition that appears in google, I am cherry picking?
“Definition of SUPERCILIOUS: coolly and patronizingly haughty Origin of SUPERCILIOUS Latin superciliosus, from supercilium eyebrow, haughtiness, from super- + -cilium eyelid.” – Yes, that is one definition, of course, there are many others. Why do we have to use your definition? Are you the definition guru or something? Should I check with you when I wish to use a word that has multiple deifinitions?
“You can’t tell the difference between being superior and “…behaving or looking as though one thinks one is superior to others.” The operative word is “thinks one is superior”. Really, do I have to educate you in basic English?” – You called me the name, Proud. You are the one that seems to think I am behaving superior to you or something. It is not my fault you such a inferiority complex.
Oh, and sorry I had to prove you wrong yet again by showing you the definition of a word is what I said it was. Proving you wrong seems to be the norm around here. Maybe if you thought a little before you typed, or better yet, not typed, things might not be so bad for you.
Anyways, have a nice day Mr. Proud to be a Tea Bagger.
Paul: you live in some fantasy world where if you say I’m wrong, then I’m wrong: but it’s only in your own mind. Your constant need to “prove someone is wrong” is the controlling drive of all of your posts. You stalk this site and then “prove” someone wrong. You are the one with an inferiority complex. You do realize that delusion the first symptom of Schizophrenia. You need to seek help for your symptoms.
Hey Proud,
“Paul: you live in some fantasy world where if you say I’m wrong, then I’m wrong: but it’s only in your own mind.” – Actually, it was in black and white. You can see it right there on your screen.
“Your constant need to “prove someone is wrong” is the controlling drive of all of your posts.” – No, its not.
“You stalk this site and then “prove” someone wrong.” – You stalked the site and responded to a post I wrote, Proud; a post in which I asked a question, nothing more. You are the one doing the stalking, not I.
“You are the one with an inferiority complex. – No, I don’t have that at all.
“You do realize that delusion the first symptom of Schizophrenia. You need to seek help for your symptoms” – Hello Mr. Pot, this is Mr. Kettle.
Anyways, have a nice day Mr. Proud to be a Tea Bagger.
PAUL: Thanks for proving my point. As far as you calling me tea bagger: Insults are the last resort of insecure people with a crumbling position trying to appear confident.
You are digging yourself into quite a hole. Keep it up.
Hey Proud,
“PAUL: Thanks for proving my point.” – I proved my point.
“As far as you calling me tea bagger: Insults are the last resort of insecure people with a crumbling position trying to appear confident.” – Proud, you attempted to insult me with your initial response in this thread mr. oh-so-damned-self-righteous one. Don’t try to play the victim now. As for an insult, I didn’t mean it as an insult, Proud. I find members of the Tea Party to typically be very nice people, and, as you call members of the tea party tea-baggers, I was simply calling you that, Proud. A very nice person.
“You are digging yourself into quite a hole. Keep it up.” – Keep it up. Lol, what happens when I reach the bottom of the hole, do I find oil? Gold? China?
Anyways, have a nice day Proud to be a Tea Bagger.
PAUL: Another symptom is your need to always have the last word.
Hey Proud,
“PAUL: Another symptom is your need to always have the last word.” – Don’t need to at all. I simply do so because I really enjoy talking to you.
Anyways, have a nice day Mr. Proud to be a Tea Bagger.
You are being used.
NO GUNS OR AMMO?
YOU WIN COMMODORE ABINGDON COUNCIL. I WANT VODKA IN PLACE OF AMMO, VODKA MAKES YOU STRONG LIKE OX.
Where do these self righteous groups come off trying to dictate free enterprise. Who elected the Abingdon Community Council? Do they think Abingdon residents are the only one in Harford County that will go to the New Wal-Mart? Bring on the Guns and Ammo and while your at it allow them to sell beer and wine.
Earl,
I have never attended a meeting of the ACC, but I do like your tea.
you want to blame David Craig for trying to help in this situation? Where were you when this zoning was legally changed to make it possible for Walmart or others to locate there? Were you in Harford County? Sleeping? Shopping at big box stores?
Good comment, Monster. I agree. People gripe and complain when it affects them, but go about their life not giving a damn if it doesn’t.
Where was the county exec. when the zoning was being changed? Isn’t it his job to submit the master plan to the county council and doesn’t he have the power to veto the plan if he doesn’t agree?
Almost spilled my coffee,
Your answer is exactly why this problem is with us. You want to blame everyone for your failure to be involved. No, it really isn’t the CE’s job to make decisions on zoning. The County Council has final say, but they aren’t to blame either. You and I am and need to be honest about it. I can, even if you cannot. Of course, it is always easier to blame others. Welcome to our society.
Stop trying to defend Craig and the county council. I am involved in my community but when our elected officials ignore what we want or do not involve the community by doing end-around and backdoor deals because they know the community would resist and mess up their prearranged plans it is time to push them out and keep them out of political office.
Almost spilled my coffee, you should stop being a whiney baby. I seriously doubt you had attended any meetings on zoning prior to this situation.
I am not whining and I never said anything about being involved in this particular situation. I am very involved in MY community, attending zoning meeting included, and what I have said applies to all communities in Harford Co. My community has gotten the shaft from Craig and the county council over other issues as well as the county as a whole. What is happening to your community is indicative of how this particular group of county officials has screwed over others and that is why we need to get rid of this bunch all together.
The county executive has the power to veto the plan approved by the county council.
this is for almost spilled my coffee:
The Board of Appeals is the Harford County Council who have delegated their authority to a Hearing Examiner. The Hearing Examiner’s decision is final unless appealed.
The duties of the Board of Appeals is to hear rezoning cases, Special Exceptions and designated Special Development cases, appeals of decisions by the Zoning Administrator, expansion of nonconforming uses and variances from requirements of the Zoning Code.
Applications to the Board of Appeals are submitted through the Department of Planning and Zoning for processing and forwarding to the Hearing Examiner. For additional information, call the Department of Planning and Zoning at 410-638-3103.
For your convenience, we have provided a copy of the Application to the Board of Appeals to be downloaded in Adobe Acrobat format. You may obtain a free copy of the Acrobat Reader from Adobe’s website.
You may wish to read the Harford County Charter before you claim knowledge of knowing what is happening in the county. Even more so, before you blame everyone but yourself for Walmart.
additional info for spilled coffee,
Why can’t I discuss zoning cases with my Council representative?
The County Council functions in many roles. One role is as the legislative branch of government and when sitting as the legislative branch the Council members may discuss legislative issues with constituents.
However, when the Council sits as the Zoning Board of Appeals, the Council members are functioning as a quasi-judicial board whose duty is to interpret the zoning law. In interpreting the zoning law, the Board may only consider the law and facts which are included in the record of the case. If a Council member has outside knowledge of a zoning case, the member may be obligated to refuse to participate in that zoning case. Also, the Harford County Charter, 706(b), prohibits an individual from influencing or attempting to influence, directly or indirectly, a member of the Board of Appeals in arriving at a decision in any pending zoning case.
Where can I get information or assistance if I am concerned about a zoning case?
You can get information about a zoning case by calling the Zoning Hearing Assistant, Dottie Smith, at 410-638-3349 or e-mail your inquiry at djsmith@harfordcountymd.gov.
Although she does not represent individual citizens in zoning cases, in some situations the People’s Counsel can be a source of information and advice concerning zoning cases. The People’s Counsel is an attorney who is paid by the County Council to represent the interest of the public at large in zoning matters, and often appears in opposition to applications’ requests in zoning cases. Lisa Sheehan serves as People’s Counsel. She may be reached at LSheehan@zoominternet.net or 443-307-3332.
Gee, what a shocker, who would have thought not many people at your “community meetings” would support 2 years of construction equipment, flag men, single lane traffic, mud on the road followed by an indefinite amount of increased congestion. Just like a town meeting, the majority of people don’t do shit unless it effects them.
I can’t help but to laugh, you all offer “terms” to Wal Mart like you are reading some treaty to a defeating military then you come in here and say you aren’t into the political part of all of this.
Honestly, No Ammo and Guns? I think Wal Mart should ship that stuff in first, and double the amount compared to other stores.
I honestly can’t believe that was a “popular” opinion judging by the amount of unpopularity it’s getting in this small corner of the internet. It sounds like a personal agenda/complex, or you all stereotyped the people you were asking that question to.
At least tell the truth, did you add “It’s for the children” after every one of those “Terms of Wal Marts surrender to the Abingdon People’s People’s People”
LOL
Reading all the various comments reminds me of that old adage, you’re damned if you do and you are damned if you don’t. Somebody, somewhere, is still not going to be happy no matter what happens.
At every meeting this summer where a vote was taken on opposition versus support of Walmart the vote has been unanimous against the site for Walmart- or any big box store.
For all those complaining about the Abingdon Community Council, or the citizens that take the time to attend the meetings, I would suggest you come to the meetings as yourself and not some anonymous internet handle and express your thoughts on the issues. Even better, apply to be on the community council in your area.
Walmart is not the only issue affecting our communities. There is an appeal coming up on an apartment complex at 24 and Plumtree, continuing dialog on Graham Park and the Arts Center, continuing development at Boulevard at Box Hill, and a proposed residential complex near Wegmans that will require a zoning variance or change that has a CIM next week. There are plenty of things citizens who care are coming to our meetings to learn about and discuss.
It’s easy to be part of the 101st Fighting Keyboards, it takes some real effort to actually become involved in your community.
Welcome to the Internet. I’m sure you all know how to use it, considering you got a Facebook page and all.
Joan, your advice is good for us all. We should be attending community council meetings for more than the current Walmart situation. Had we done so earlier, Walmart may or may not have been the issue that it is today. You also are trying to do something about the situation in a positive manner. There are a lot of Johnny Come Latelys that now post looking to blame others. Thanks for your participation. We should be there with you.
Hey Joan L Hamilton,
I have a few questions regarding the voting. How many votes were taken?
How many were present for the votes? When were these votes held? Did the community as a whole vote or simply the council members? Were there any announcements prior to the voting to let the citizens (if they were permitted to vote) know a vote was going to be taken?
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul MC,
I cannot speak to exactly what Joan was referring to, or even exactly what kinds of votes you are asking about, but I can tell you that I was present for 3 “votes” on the issue of the relocation and the plan for the new store. Two of those were community council meetings earlier this summer where we directly asked for a show of hands of all those present and the vast majority were opposed (yes some supported it). The third was a private vote among members held in early August before our “Walmart issue” meeting 8/27 on deciding to release a position statement on the issue, which was unanimously opposed. This is noted in the statement we released at that time, and the minutes of all the meetings are available for public review if people cannot make the meetings. I invite you to do your own research on the matter and contact us if you have trouble finding what you need or have any additional questions.
Truthfully, as a council, we are reluctant to stake out positions on most “issues”. If someone has been attending our meetings they would be aware of that and heard some of our conversation on the matter. Some people criticized us for that too. Fortunately, most of the work we actually do is hum-drum daily civic matters like road code and boring bike and pedestrian plans. But we accepted that some issues were going to lead people to expect us to take a vote now and then. This was one of those issues. If we had not done so there would have been plenty of other people quite upset with us for totally different reasons.
Really all it comes down to is we asked for input from the community on several occasions, and we have passed along that input.
It’s not any more complicated than that.
The minutes of the Abingdon Community Council are posted on the Harford County website for anyone who is interested in getting details of the past meetings.
The county executive has the authority to change zoning at any time.
He can blcoik Walmart if he wants to.
However, it appears the strategy is leaning toward, let Walmart come and then raid their pockets.
Lets hope Bel Air doens’t sell it’s soul for a few trees, LED security lights, and a new traffic light.
Is that true? I thought only the County Council could change zoning, and then only if the property owner requests a zoning change (although if a request is opened I think the Council has the ability to change the zoning to something other than what the request is for).
I mean, to change the zoning of someone’s property would violate Due Process and Just Compensation to name a few.
Wrong! The county council has the final say on zoning appeals. Beyond that the contesting parties can take their case to the courts for resolution. The county executive cannot stop Wal-Mart.
Fact Check – previous post meant for Ellis.
Ellis, tell me what you saw to say that the CE can change zoning at any time. You are wrong.
My understanding is that the land was previously zoned for high-density residential use, and the surrounding neighbors wanted the zoning changed to business usage to prevent Section 8 or mixed-income housing from getting a foothold in the area.
Now they’re mad that it’s Walmart and not the high-class store they thought would come to their rural utopia, but the County can’t discriminate based on how classy the incoming tenant is. Abingdon residents made their bed, now they have to lie in it.
You know as well as I do that the concept of putting Section 8 housing there was just a ruse to get the property rezoned. Walmart was in the pocket all the time. What did David Craig know and when did he know it? When Walmart wants a store of this scale, especially in an inappropriate location, they usually spread a lot of money around the community to make it seem like they are a good neighbor. Well who has gotten all this money? The community has not received support from Walmart, now or ever. Who has received envelopes of $10,000 cash, gone on trips, golfed with developers, or dined at the Prime Rib? Corrupt rezoning of the property should not be forgotten.
I fear Walmart, I fear my neighbors, I need guns.
Welcome to America.
I enjoy my guns and love the country but its citizens are becoming disturbed.
Since the ACC only represents those who are opposed to the move and turns a blind eye toward residents that want walmart to move, shouldn’t they really change their name as they admittedly do not and will not represent the entire population as they claim? Or are we just assuming the voice of those community members who disagree with some sort of mob rules mentality don’t deserve representation….
BelairBob,
The council members did not assume anything. This is why we have had open public meetings for almost 2 years on a broad range of topics, why we specifically asked for community input on the Walmart issue repeatedly for the last 3 months, and we have publicized our meetings in multiple locations and forms of media.
As I stated before, we acknowledge that there are people who supporot the relocation of the store and we did hear from those people as well.
However, also as I stated before, we heard from A LOT MORE people who are opposed. We can only act on the input we were given, which is our responsibility according to the by-laws given to us by the county.
Our goal in the meeting with Walmart was to make sure they are aware of the concerns members of the community brought to us. Quite frankly, when they have their own petition with 1000 signatures on it, I’m not sure how effective it is to tell them that some residents support them. And as I also said before, there are different kinds of support and opposition. We heard from people who love Walmart, but don’t think they should move, or don’t think certain parts of the store plan are right, etc.
I am sorry if you were unaware of our meetings and calls for input. We are constantly trying to figure out how, with no money, we can inform and engage the community. If you have suggestions, please email us.
Mr. Grey, it amazes me that you who have been involved and are trying to do something positive about Walmart are getting slammed. Thank you for trying to help the situation. Maybe some of the critics would like to join you since you get paid so much for your time- HA.
Mr. Grey, thank you for volunteering. I am wondering why the ACC is spending so much time on a Bel Air issue. Folks from Bel Air didn’t care when they ripped all the trees from Abingdon to create the behemoth Boulevard at Box Hill South. People who talk about the traffic on 924 and Plumtree have no idea what I go through every day just trying not to get killed with the new interchange at 24/924 that only benefitted commuters going to Bel Air. If the Abingdon Walmart moves, it might offer some relief to Abingdon citizens. Just wanted some clarification.
The designated residential area that the ACC covers includes Abingdon and Bel Air South. The Plumtree site is in the ACC area. The maps of the various Community Councils are on the Harford County website along with meeting times and locations.
Hank,
We have gotten that question a few times, and the other comments are basically correct, there are two reasons
1) The location just south of Plumtree lies within the area border assigned to the ACC by the county, so we are responsible for the store location and about half the residents and businesses around it. You can find an area map here at the top right, along with other info:
http://www.harfordcountymd.gov/CommunityCouncil/
There is also no community council currently active that represents all of the Bel Air residents north and outside our border. Also note that many county documents refer to us as the “Abingdon-Emmorton” community council, but not all of them. We have kept just ACC so far but might consider adding the “Emmorton” to our usage.
2) To respond to the second part about the Boulevard at Box Hill, it was approved by the County about a year before the ACC was created and dirt was already being moved. However, we have had Boulevard reps at our meetings and we routinely communicate with them regarding different issues as they arise.
Along with that also note that the reconstruction of the 24/924 interchange was a big issue for us that we put a lot of time into and we had SHA reps at our meeting at least twice that I can remember. We actually got some of the signage and lanes reconfigured after the project was done.
And finally, it probably seems like we are devoting a lot of time to the Walmart issue right now because it is getting attention, but there are multiple other issues we are monitoring or working on right now, including the plan to put 400 new apartments behind the Boulevard near the YMCA. There is a meeting next Tues 10/16 at 6pm for that which you might want to attend, please see our Facebook page for more details.
Oh, and one last point that we have made a few times is that most of the council members actually live closer to Constant Friendship than Plumtree, so we too understand your point about the change in traffic if the Walmart moves. One of our points to Walmart was that the major intersections where they are now sustain traffic of about 60,000 cars a day and it runs fairly well (though confusing), whereas the new location only handles about 40,000 cars a day and we all know it is a complete mess. The grading system for intersections rates most of the ones in the new location around D or E (A-F).
Abingdon has a “community” council? Must be like all those surveys that are quoted on political issues, nobody ever asks me. . . . Let the bashing of my ignorance begin!
Iggy, no need to bash you. You did it yourself.
You know criminals and other supporters of crime obtain their weapons legally. Tyrone walks into a wal-mart and fills out the insta-check and walks out with a long rifle plus ammo.
Unlikely.
Dear Hairy Lip–I’m sure that you truly do understand that the issue has to do with the proposed location’s proximity to a school zone. Yes, many guns used for illegal and unbelievable purposes are obtained legally. These include the DC sniper’s, the Perry Hall shooter’s, and the Columbine weapons. You can continue to check the the local collective’s web page and follow the thread for where your ammo is in stock locally. If you don’t know anything about it then ask the fine folks at Horst and McCann. I’m sure they can set you straight.
It seems that there will soon be a Walmart every 15 feet in Harford County so this is truly no inconvenience to you. The only inconvenience is that you won’t be able to drive past Plumtree because of the gridlock. Don’t pull a Plaxico Burress…the ambulance will never be able to reach you in all that mess. Call David Craig. Maybe he can give you a ride to the hospital….in Havre de Grace.
When I was a regular customer at their range, Horst sold a ton of ammo in packages that I’d only ever seen for sale at Walmart…
Hey D,
The Perry Hall shooter actually obtained the weapon through theft. He took his step-father’s shot gun without permission of the owner and would have taken other guns through illegal means but they were locked up.
As for the DC snipers, neither were legally authorized to have a firearm as they were illegal aliens and furthermore, the rifle was allegedly shoplifted.
The Columbine weapons were also obtained illegally as the two youths were not legally permitted to purchase them. Also they bought the weapons, illegally, from friends.
Anyways, have a nice day.
All the legally procured guns were not properly controlled by the adults in the home. Gun ownership is not the only right, responsible gun ownership is. Living in this world requires some personal responsibility. You don’t drive with your eyes closed, you don’t play pirates with your kids using real swords, and you don’t leave guns where someone unwanted can access them. If there was responsible gun ownership in the above situations could the tragedies have been avoided? Do you leave your unlocked, loaded guns around for your grandkids to use without permission and supervision?
Hey D,
“All the legally procured guns were not properly controlled by the adults in the home.” – In two of the three cases you cited, the firearms were not procured legally. The Columbine shooters bought their weapons (some of them) from friends. Nothing legal at all about that. The DC sniper is alleged to have shoplifted the rifle. Again, nothing legal. The Perry Hall shooter took his step father’s unsecured weapon. Had the weapon been locked up, this may not have happened.
“Gun ownership is not the only right, responsible gun ownership is.” – I completely agree. However, the theft of a firearm is typically something the owner has little control over, if they are indeed responsible. (Such as securing the weapon in a locked container/room)
“Living in this world requires some personal responsibility.” – Yes.
“You don’t drive with your eyes closed, you don’t play pirates with your kids using real swords, and you don’t leave guns where someone unwanted can access them.” – Irrelevant.
“If there was responsible gun ownership in the above situations could the tragedies have been avoided?” – Well, possibly not in the DC sniper case as the weapon was shop lifted. In the case where the weapons were sold to the Columbine shooters, yes, those who sold the weapons (and the parents who owned the other weapons involved) were very irresponsible and partially to blame for the tragedy.
“Do you leave your unlocked, loaded guns around for your grandkids to use without permission and supervision?” – I don’t have any grand kids. However, I would never leave an unlocked firearm in a place accessible by a child. That does not mean a person intent on obtaining a firearm illegally would not be able to steal one from my home as a person that is a thief and wanted to obtain a weapon illegally wouldn’t worry about following the laws.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul Mc,
Only the younger of the DC snipers was here illegally. The older one was born in Louisiana.
Hey Fact Check,
You are correct.
Associated Press article – why not build a small store:
“Retailer targeting its smaller stores – Associated Press
Walmart is accelerating the expansion of small stores, particularly its Neighborhood Market stores, as it looks to compete with a variety of rivals from dollar stores to drug chains.
“This gives us the opportunity to build more stores for less money,” Bill Simon, president of Walmart’s U.S. division told Wall Street analysts at a meeting near its headquarters in Bentonville, Ark.
Simon said it plans to have 500 Neighborhood Market stores and 12 Express stores by fiscal 2016.
As of the end of July, Walmart had 10 Express stores and had ramped up its Neighborhood Market concept to 217 locations.
Investors cheered the news, sending Walmart’s stock up $1.28 to $75.42 Wednesday.
The focus on small stores is part of Walmart’s overall strategy to continue increasing sales while becoming more efficient with its capital expenditures across the globe. Its U.S. namesake business is roaring back, thanks to re-emphasizing rock-bottom low prices, and officials says they want to apply that same discipline to how it approaches its store expansion.
In its international business, which accounts for about a quarter of its business, Walmart reiterated that it will be slowing expansion growth in China and Brazil as it works hard to make those stores more productive. And while it won’t miss an important opportunity to make an acquisition overseas, it’s primarily focusing on existing markets.
“We have a lot of invested capital, and we need to generate returns there,” said Walmart International President and CEO Doug McMillon.
Walmart expects total company sales to increase anywhere from 5 to 7 percent for fiscal 2014.
Overall, Walmart plans to add from 36 million to 39 million square feet globally this fiscal year and from 36 million to 40 million next year. It will cut capital spending by 4.2 percent next year to a range of $12 billion to $13 billion. That’s down from an estimated $12.6 billion to $13.5 billion for the current fiscal year.
In the U.S., the company plans to add 125 supercenters next year, unchanged from the current year. But Walmart aims to add from 95 to 115 small format stores, up from a projected 80 for fiscal 2013.
Simon noted that Walmart’s small stores, which range from 10,000 square feet to about 55,000 square feet, compete well with a broad variety of merchants.”
Because the Abingdon store already does brisk business as a regular store. The Market stores are intended to increase market penetration in areas previously unavailable to the big box giant.
Do you call 180,000+ SF SMALL?! This is ridiculous. As stated we already have 3 Walmarts in the area, 2 more than needed. Bel Air has a convenience issue. It’s an ok community that has the potential to be great! It has good road infrastructure breaking up the zones. This makes the planning random and chaotic. Just like that random Sonic chilling outside of a high school, yea that was necessary. I’m so sick of seeing big box stores and chains pop up in Harford county on new sites, when we already have vacant ones. Use a furniture store! Shop at Target! And to everyone who says where were the residents when the zoning happened? OKAY lets be honest for a second, the county does not make it easy or accessible for people to follow zoning and they have lives its a real job following all of that, they trust that their elected officials will guide the decisions, clearly they have failed and we have to come break it up in the last minute. Walmart does nothing good for the community don’t let them promise you otherwise. That box hill menagerie is already enough, the Walmart can take over JC Penny when it folds next year? I work in building and construction, that doesn’t mean I think all building is good. This is a stupid idea driven by people who want to piggy back off of your money and continue Bel Air on its fake, pathetic, commercially framed path.
Also….. All those suburbanites who rave about farmer’s markets and how cute they are! and how great it is to have local produce… these are the types of decisions that allowed your house to be built and drove out the farms. Think about it. Increasing major chain development hurts the local economy. If you wouldn’t give up your housing development house, for a farm to exist and make sure that they were able to economically able to survive then you have no room to speak. You will be crying in 10 years when there are no more forests and open spaces in Har Co. Its the beginning to the end. There is only so much land in preservation. Why not start now.
@Erika
You’re an idiot.
People can build on property they own or lease in properly zoned areas.
Who the crap are you to pick commercial property winners and losers?
Do all property owners need to check in with Erika to find out to whom they can sell or lease their duly zoned commercial property?
You can go bugger off.
Eric,
A little harsh I would say. I agree that Erika doesn’t have all of the facts and is misinterpreting those she does have but lets not be so harsh with her. Isn’t there a more diplomatic way point out her obvious issues? I’m sure Erika will be the first to move to – well somewhere, I don’t know where – so we can put the property she now inhabits into preservation. And I agree with her, we need to shut down those damn farmer’s markets even if they are cute. Why should the local farmer’s have an opportunity to sell their produce locally?
Perhaps we could all band together mob like and force erika to move and take her house and land from her. I know I don’t want her as my neighbor.
There’s a plan….
(not really but maybe Erika will get the idea how things really work)
“Bugger off.” Really? (Who says phrases like that anymore…) I’m not going to stoop to your name calling level, I have my opinion, you can have yours. But thanks for evaluating me as an idiot. Based on a comment to an online article. I am well versed in urban planning and development, I am incredible anti-sprawl and pro-urban. Didn’t know I needed to upload my resume to comment on here… I was merely pointing out the opposition that people today seem to have about keeping things local when planning decisions 20 years ago gave way to the lives we have now. If you refer to this article you will learn more about the development in Maryland an how it greatly needs to be slowed down. http://www.urbanitebaltimore.com/baltimore/the-era-of-suburban-sprawl-has-to-end-so-now-what/Content?oid=1470995
No Erika, you need to raise money, buy the land and pay taxes on it to keep it away from the developers (evil sprawlers).
People have property rights Erika and if you and your progressive friends have their way you will rob them of the value in their land.
Now bugger off!
Walmart doesn’t own the land yet. The sale hasn’t been finalized.
What facinates me about this discussion is a very simple question, if not Wal Mart, then what? The bottom line is that it is zoned for commercial business. So if there is no Wal Mart, what will occupy the entire parcel, because it will be something. You are either a fool or stupid if you think that the lot is going to sit empty.
And as many communities find out the hard way, the next business down the pike might be a lot worse than a Wal Mart. Personally, I really don’t want to see anything there becuase the traffic is already horrendous. But I live in the real world and I would rather see ONE big box store on the parcel than a hodge podge of 30 businesses like the current mess that exists where the current Wal Mart sits.
Having an attitude that you don’t anything there isn’t going to cut it. I guess they could have left it zoned residential and they could have added 1,000 units.
I would love to hear the outcry about how they want a Walmart if this deal falls through and Kmart builds on the plot…
Volunteering is the ultimate exercise in democracy. You vote in elections once a year, but when you volunteer, you vote every day about the kind of community you want to live in.
Come to the meetings and join the dialogue. See you there, aloha.
Life Long Resident I could not agree with you more! I understand not wanting a Walmart built in the area that someone lives, I would not want it either. That’s why I live as far away from Bel Air as I can. But what if some 200,000 sq. ft warehouse is built there instead? Trucks coming in and out all hours of the day and night with ONLY an entrance off of 924. Is that really a better option then Walmart? The area is not going to go undeveloped, it will be used as some type of commercial capacity. So that is the big question. If not Walmart then WHAT????
Yes, that is the problem. There can always be something worse. I have seen this so many times before in so many communities. They will fight the Wal Mart, and lets say they win. Then 3 years later something else will be built on that plat of land that will be a lot worse.
The site is already zoned for a prison and they are out of room to make the detention center any bigger. It would make a fine spot with all the fine upstanding people that frequent the prison population. What’s not to like?
How about the county council and the ACC all get behind this and ram it through, solves 2 problems at once.
The County Council claims they are looking at rezoning some of the remaining property in the development envelope to a lower business zoning because the area is saturated. The Walmart property can’t be included until the project is either a go or a no but if Walmart doesn’t build that property will be included. It’s up to us as citizens to hold them to the fire to keep this promise.
HEY. I DON’T SUPPORT WAL MART MOVING, THAT MEANS WITH ALL THE CONSTRUCTION AND TRFFIC , HARFORD COUNTY TEACHERS WILL HAVE LONGETIMES GETTING TO AND FROM WORK.
I find it amazing that Walmart officials were ‘horrified’ at the protests, and still seem so adamant to move ahead. Does keeping the goodwill of the community intact not even come into the equation these days? I’m not even a resident of the affected areas, but the whole matter has tainted my view of the big box. If the majority of the community does not want them to relocate, they should be listening more to suggestions of expanding the Abingdon location. Now that this has become a big stink, they could probably get whatever easements they requested, and maybe even some 0% OED money to boot to keep the Abingdon store open (it is basically bribe money, anyway).
I applaud the County Council (sans Slutzky and Lisanti)for passing their resolution, and at least making some attempt to look into the myriad of traffic issues this will cause. This is still going to be a political hot potato in 2014, and David Craig would be wise to do all he can as well.
I doubt they were horrified at the protest, my guess is they were horrified at the lack of civility of the people involved. I have opposed many public projects, in various capacities, in my life, but have always done so with dignity, civility and common courtesy. At least when I lost, I had the respect of the opposition and they were much more willing to work on secondary issues surraounding a project.
You can hate Wal Mart, you can hate the project, but at the end of the day, everyone involved are just people doing their jobs. Focus on the project, not the personalities.
They sure aren’t operating like Mr Sam used to. He would have never proceeded to build this store after that meeting.
Nope. And Ford Motors doesn’t operate the way it did when Henry was the CEO. And J C Penny doesn’t operate the way it did when James Cash Penny was CEO. And your point is?
Pure conjecture.
Sheesh, PTBL. It was a simple question. Abingdon Res was accused of making a personal attack against Ms. Mumby and you piled on saying that’s what ‘these people’ do best. Who are these people? People who oppose Walmart? People who support Walmart? People who defend the office of the County Exec? People who make dumb statements like Abingdon Res made and which I pointed out was dumb?
If you are going to make an observation about a group of people maybe you could be more clear about who actually is in the group. Otherwise it is just hot air. You are a fine fellow and I sure wouldn’t direct any personal attacks toward you but sometimes you say stuff that is just off the wall weird. And you respond with “If the shoe fits . . . .” C’mon, you can do better than that.
In the new Sun article Walmart claims they give back to the community through their foundation. Does anyone know of anything Walmart has supported in this community with corporate funds or even local store funds?
Absolutely. I will name one. And there are many. You may want to call the HCPS and ask them to send you a copy of an article they wrote extolling the virtues of a program called Blessings in a Backpack. Walmart is a big time supporter of that.
Blessing in a Backpack is a ministry of Mountain Christian Church. It is also supported by Emmorton elementary School.
I have a friend who got their field trip subsidized for their school by walmart. It was enough to cover the buses to Washington DC. Otherwise the kids who went would not have been able to afford.
PAUL: Another symptom is puerile behavior.
Hey Proud,
If you stopped acting like a child, you wouldn’t exhibit such behavior.
Anyways, have a nice day Mr. Proud to be a Tea Bagger.
The Aegis has an article today about the 40th anniversary of Harford Mall. It states the mall takes up 140,000 sq ft. The planned Walmart is over 180,000 sq ft.
Harford Mall is a poor excuse for a mall. Very poor excuse. I pass it often, hardly ever stop and I shop at Towsontown. Or Christiana (no sales tax). And I’m not sure what your point is by comparing the two.
Towson Mall is creepy and unsafe – haven’t a number of people been murdered in the parking garage and in the surrounding area?
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-09-08/news/bs-md-co-towson-town-shooting-trial-20120905_1_gang-retaliation-william-ward-iii-bgf
i love walmart its the best place in the world!!!!