Following the Aug. 27 shooting at Perry Hall High School in Baltimore County, Teri Kranefeld, manager of communications for Harford County Public Schools provided the following list of school building safety measures currently in place in HCPS.
The list is followed by a statement on the shootings from U.S. Rep. Andy Harris.
1. Each school has a critical incident plan and drills are conducted every year to ensure that the plan can be executed effectively.
2. Harford County Public Schools has an excellent working relationship with local and state fire, police, and EMS. Active-shooter drills are conducted with key players to practice the role of each agency in an emergency.
3. HCPS Administrators have been trained in the National Incident Management System (NIMS) program. NIMS is an emergency preparedness program created by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security – Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).
4. All schools are locked down with a visitor management system in place to help ensure that all buildings remain safe.
5. A School Resource Officer is assigned to each high school. Those officers also serve the feeder elementary and middle schools.
6. Weapons of any kind are not allowed on school property or buses.
From U.S. Rep Andy Harris:
Rep. Andy Harris released the following statement regarding the tragic shooting today at Perry Hall High School:
“My deepest thoughts and prayers are with the victim, students, faculty and families affected by today’s tragic shooting at Perry Hall High School,” said Rep. Andy Harris. “I would like to commend the school faculty and the Baltimore County Police Department for their handling of this unthinkable event.”
Here’s a novel idea, how about less guns all around?
Q,
Gun violence typically increases with municipal gun bans. If you do it on a national level it will lead to large black markets and eventual rise in explosives and blade violence. If you do it on the municipal level… well look at Chicago and DC.
While we can’t eliminate the possibility of mental illness, much of this kind of violence in the schools is a sad combination of poor parenting and bullying.
School violence comes down to parenting on both the bully and the bullyee, not the right to bear arms.
-Damien Sandow
I really had to research the issue of gun control when I decided to run for US Congress in Maryland’s 1st District. My husband is both a veteran and an avid gun collector but I believe it takes more than parenting to stop the violence we’ve experienced in recent years.
The NRA fights against restriction on the size of clips or magazines. If the Perry Hall HS shooter had a fully automatic weapon, how many victims would we be mourning today? Even VP Dick Cheney agrees that magazines and clips should be restricted to less than 20 rounds.
The NRA also fights the legitimate dealers and shop owners in the marketplace by supporting legislation that would change gun registration requirements so that back alley and street corner dealing would be legitimized.
Responsible parenting is certainly needed, but it we can’t depend on every parent to supervise every moment of a child’s day. What is sad is how little we know about our children’s lives at school. Do they suffer abuse? Are the schools ignoring bullying problems? I too express my sorrow for the victims, students, faculty and family members dealing with this terrible event. But I also pledge to support better legislation that protects the rights of esponsible gun owners, and keeps guns out of the hands of children.
Lets go point by point:
“The NRA fights against restriction on the size of clips or magazines.”
Magazines were limited to 10 rounds from 1994 until 2004, crime had no appreciable drop due to limited capacity. Plus, it only takes one bullet to forever change a life.
“If the Perry Hall HS shooter had a fully automatic weapon, how many victims would we be mourning today?”
The requirements to legally purchase/possess a fully automatic weapon are numerous, including finding a weapon made before 1986 as new production for civilian ownership was banned that year. An AR15 registered as a machine gun costs $12-16k, vs $800 for the semiautomatic AR15. The National Firearms Act also requires access to MGs be limited to the registered owner.
“Even VP Dick Cheney agrees that magazines and clips should be restricted to less than 20 rounds.” Maryland already has a 20 round limit for sale or transfer of magazines.
“The NRA also fights the legitimate dealers and shop owners in the marketplace by supporting legislation that would change gun registration requirements so that back alley and street corner dealing would be legitimized.” Maryland requires handguns and “assault rifles” only be sold via federal firearms dealers or between private parties at a State Police Barracks, with a 7-day waiting period and waiver for the MSP to search your medical records in addition to the normal criminal background check.
“Responsible parenting is certainly needed, but it we can’t depend on every parent to supervise every moment of a child’s day. What is sad is how little we know about our children’s lives at school. Do they suffer abuse? Are the schools ignoring bullying problems?”
Parents should talk to their kids and discovering that a child is considering murder due to bullying should not take much effort.
“I too express my sorrow for the victims, students, faculty and family members dealing with this terrible event. But I also pledge to support better legislation that protects the rights of esponsible gun owners, and keeps guns out of the hands of children.”
Murder is already illegal, I suggest you campaign to pass a second law outlawing it again because criminals aren’t following the current law.
Thanks, Wendy, but it sounds more than a little disingenuous.
Did you forget to mention that the Feds/ATF get their own employees killed by demanding that gun dealers NOT follow the law and instead sell to people that would otherwise be disqualified to buy so that they can watch what happens? Or did you decide to leave that out because Holder is a Democrat? I’m sure if it were a Republican administration you would be all over it.
Alex,
That is such an outrageous commen Please explain what source you learned to conclude that “…the Feds/ATF get their own employees killed by demanding that gun dealers NOT follow the law and instead sell to people that would otherwise be disqualified to buy so that they can watch what happens?”
Well I can tell you where it came from. Operation Fast and Furious. Gun store owners on the border would call the ATF about suspected cartel members buying large quantities of fire arms and that they would like to refuse the sale. the ATF insisted that the FFL dealers sell the guns to the suspected cartel members. The guns were walked into Mexico where there were used in the the killings over over 350 Mexican Citizens and in the murder of Border Agent Brian Terry. Eric Holder has been held in contempt of congress over this for not turning over requested documents. Obama invoked executive privilege so that the documents would not come out. You wont find anything about this on mainstream news, they would not dare tarnish the reputation of the glorious overlord.
FACTCHECKERX or whoever you are,
How in the world can you claim to be anything like a fact checker if you are clueless about Fast and Furious? Michelle is 100% correct and the documentation is from the Department of Justice itself. If Holder was a different political party he would be out on his backside. The ineptitude of this administration does not end at the White House but extends to cabinet members like Holder, Geithner, Sebelius and Napolitano.
Does it make it worse to murder someone with a gun, instead of an axe, home-made bomb or truck?
Almost 99% of gun crimes are done by ILLEGALLY OBTAINED FIREARMS. Banning guns will only keep law abiding citizens from defending themselves. He stole the gun from his father. The father had an obligation to keep the fire arm secure. One more thing, I dont buy the he was bullied crap. IT WAS THE FIRST DAY OF SCHOOL AND HE BROUGHT THE GUN WITH HIM. Did he get “bullied” on his way to the bus stop?
Michelle, unfortunately things are different from when most of us were in high school (even people who graduated from high school as little as 5-6 years ago.) It used to be that if a kid was getting bullied it happened at school, maybe on the bus, and maybe at the mall (or wherever kids were hanging out in public.) Once a kid got home he could get away from it for a couple of hours. It’s certainly not a very pleasant existence at times, but it was possible to get a break and relax.
Now with everyone (particularly teens) on every sort of social imaginable there’s not escaping it short of not going to facebook, twitter, or whatever at all (which imo would be a good thing for society if everyone stopped wasting so much time on that junk.) What used to be said in front of maybe a dozen or fewer kids is now posted on facebook for the entire school to see and then pile on the comments.
I don’t know if this kid was really being bullied or not, but just because it was the first day of school doesn’t mean he wasn’t. It in no way excuses stealing a shotgun and planning to shoot up a school, of course. I can’t even imagine my thought process getting to the point where that would seem like a good idea and I was victim of bullying as a kid (mostly elementary school…by the time I reached high school I’d found my niche and didn’t really have the problem anymore.)
Agree on the bullying points but the black market argument is so tired. And I’ll take my chances with any blade over a shotgun.
Black market argument tired? It is fairly straight forward logic. You ban it locally, other localities will bring guns in.
You ban guns nationally, and guns will have a massive black market (like marijuana or any other drug), where only the worst humans will control the guns.
OR you can keep it open like our forefathers wanted, and let honest folk have a chance against the inevitable acts of ill will.
Not at all advocating an across the board ban. But we should be seriously discussing more controls. And just so we’re clear, I have the right to send my children to school without ever having the thought cross my mind that they’ll be subjected to gun violence within the school.
No. You do not have that right. Unless I’m not in the United States…
Really? Maybe not as outlined in the written word of the Constitution. But in that case, I’m bet anything that today’s shooter wasn’t looking for a “well regulated militia” to join. If you want to have a discussion, please do. If you want to play semantics, find someone else.
This kid was bullied and stole a gun from his parents. It is a Parental, societal issue, not a gun issue.
He could have easily taken a knife in and mortally wounded someone who was bullying him.
If you think that parents have failed this much, then install metal detectors at schools.
Right… and the black market in illegal drugs is all hype as well.
THANK YOU ARCHIBALD. Legalize it.
It’s not like there aren’t illegal drugs in schools…
So the administrators are trained in NIMS….but do the students know what to do? During my daughter’s overview of her planner yesterday, the only mention of any type of emergency response was to mention in passing where they should go in the event of a fire. Several years ago when she was in elementary school, the then principal actually walked through the school and identified the locations and methods in the event for the need of a lockdown. The students practiced said procedures. When the new principal took over, we were informed that there was no need for this type of precaution. In the years to follow, there has been no mention of the procedures to be followed in the different schools she has been in.
Speak up parents, your kids deserve to be protected while they are at school. While the school administration cannot be prepared for every possible type of incident, they can certainly be better prepared for what is becoming unfortunately a more common event.
Gun control is not the issue, parental involvement is. We as parents need to be more vigilant about what our kids are doing, what they are saying, and who they are saying it to. Get to know your kids, who they socialize with, and what they are doing online. Do your part to protect our kids!!!
My wifes school practices such a drill yearly as required in addition to the extra lock downs for the drug scanning dogs.
I’ve noticed the dogs only ever search the empty halls and parking lots, never getting within a suitable distance of students for a sniff-test…
You think because kids behavior is to unpredictable? These dogs are trained to work in issolation. Wife says they lock down the building for the search.
Or because Jesse Jackson would be on the first flight to BWI if he saw a picture of a police dog and a minority student.
Or a muslim student would sue saying dogs are unclean.
Or because no one wants to acknowledge there are serious drug problems in schools, and if the students know they can hide them on their person 99% of the time without getting caught, the administration also knows the lockers will be clean, so both parties are happy.
Police dogs work just fine in airports, military installations, etc, in close proximity to non-officers. Its HCPS saying no dogs near students.
Would not be just Jesse Jackson, any lawyer would sue for you.
Not sure Muslims find dogs unclean.
Kahrn I know of plenty of examples of kids found with drugs in lockers. They go to special schools in the other wing of my building. I think you have a very real risk and concern with a K-9 in close proximity to a kid.
DamienSandow- I completely agree with everything you have said here!!! Totally! God bless America!
My heart goes out to those who were affected by the horrific incident at Perry Hall HS.
Schools have been forced to take the place of parents in many circumstances due to many factors. However, schools can’t replace parents, nor should they be placed in that position.
Parents must maintain an active role in raising their children. They must communicate with their kids and learn about anything that may be a disruption in their kids’ lives such as peer pressure, bullying, difficult assignments, etc… We all let our kids have cell phones and access to the computer. Try to check up, a/k/a monitor, their social media cites, particularly what is on their Facebook pages. This is an amazing source of info for a parent. If kids refuse to “friend” you on Facebook, deny them access to a computer at home.
While this is a good start, there is no way to prevent the actions of a determined person.
With all the time that is spent in schools today to admonish children who push others (bully), tease others (bully), etc. and nobody saw this coming with all of his FB posts? Give me a break. Of all the school incidents over the past decade, this one seems to be the least surprising. This kid was ready to blow right in front of everyone but they all seem to have been looking somewhere else. And an important question has to be “where were the parents while this was all taking place?” Yes, this kid is someone’s son and under their direct supervision – probably not, and that’s the problem.
The Columbine duo made 99 pipe bombs and cut down their shotguns in one of their garages. If parents are so oblivious to not notice building and testing explosives or illegally modifying weapons, are they even parents, or just the people refilling the fridge and keeping the electricity running?
I think HCPS should check to make sure that administrators and teachers actually know what to do if something remotely like this happens (and don’t just ask the head principal at the schools…actually ask various staff members including teachers, custodians, and other support staff if they know what to do.) I know for a fact that most teachers don’t really have any idea what to do beyond locking down their classrooms or where to go during a fire drill. That doesn’t do them a whole hell of a lot of good if an active shooter kicks their classroom door down and comes in. I also know that some administrators at a couple different schools somehow still believe that something like this could never happen in their schools.
That type of thinking will just result in more people getting injured or killed if an active shooter event happens in Harford County. It’s all well and good to have a plan in place, but what’s the point if the people who are supposed to execute it don’t know what to do? Having some master plan in a binder sitting on a shelf someplace is worthless without practicing it. HCSO does do active shooter training in every school in the county, but I’ve never heard of any school personnel participating while that training is taking place.
I volunteer at my childrens school a couple times a month. I was actually at the school last year during two lock down drills. One of those times while I was in the school office another in a classroom with the teacher. The teachers are required to have everyone out of view from the windows and lock their classroom doors. The administration walked the halls and noted where there were problems. I felt confident that the school was taking the necessary precautions.
Like I said, they know how to do a classroom lockdown and evacuate for fire drills. Beyond that, most of them don’t know what to do and get no training and in how to handle a situation like this. Locking down a classroom does nothing for a cafeteria full of students and teachers when someone walks in with a gun and starts shooting or when a shooter decides to kick down their classroom door.
I’m not blaming the teachers. It’s the entire mindset of “It can’t happen here” that’s the problem.
HELLO IS ANYONE OUT THERE? I… as all of us associate with children/people. What I observe is the society that we are creating is based on I, mine, and me. There is no structures or rules that teach this society to guide, support, honor, be kind, patience, goodness, faithfulness etc. OH YEAH THAT IS IN THE BIBLE. It is a society that will not say “NO” and stick firm to it because you don’t follow the norm. Well the norm is based on what WE are told through THE TV, publications and advertising, peer pressures (adult and child). HELLO it is not the NORM for a well structured society.PARENTING IS HARD WORK….but parents don’t want to work hard at one of the most important jobs in this world. OHHHHHH and it isn’t the guns that kill it is the THINKING OF A PERSON that kills.
You are correct KHARN – the Columbine situation was ridiculous. Those adults were not parents but they were in part responsible for the acts that followed. Here again, adults lived in a house with this kid, meanwhile, from the news accounts last night, many of his classmates regularly saw his posts praising Charles Manson, the Columbine killers and more, but nobody thought this was at all odd and threatening? Not more threatening than a kid who teases another because of the color of their hair? Or their weight? Give me a stink’n break. It’ll be interesting to see how this crime is now treated. Will be get a yr in Juvie only to hit the streets again? We caught the criminal, we have a justice system – let’s see a real judgement that will not allow this very soon-to-be adult to do this again!
I’m finding this dicussion fascinating. Last week I was shouted out of the room via thumbs down for suggesting parents be an integral part of fighting bullying. The popular comments had parents teaching their kids to fight back or become bullies themselves. Well, sheesh, you got what you wanted with interest, didn’t ya?!
All this righteous anger at the inactions of a victim of bullying’s parents is noble, but at the end of the day many of the people around here have shown at least once that this is the preferred method of dealing with bullies.
If this young person who fired shots at school yesterday were seeking solutions to his or her problems last week, and came across the discussion on this website repeatedly admonishing me for putting pressure on parents to parent; for victims to follow acceptable steps to deal with bullies; to resist stupid advice; and educate themselves to look for signs of aggressive behavior resulting from bullying – and instead chose to follow the popular (i.e., return fire) because he or she felt it was the better choice and meet with approval – what do you have to say for yourselves? Is it any wonder kids choose to shoot up their schools when so many of us think it is the best option??
I’m not saying this to say “I told you so” but I am saying that my advice last week sticks: 1) learn what bullying is, 2) follow processes already in place, 3) ignore stupid advice, and 4) have parents parent.
I’d really like to hear right now from the people who ridiculed the school’s efforts to combat bullying, who advocated students become bullies themselves to fight bullies, or just simply return fire. Seriously, I’d really like to hear your rationalization for continuing to adhere to your idiotic ideas. Better yet – what is your solution because clearly parents are not doing their jobs – if not them, who? Answers folks… own up to your words… be brave and defend the stupidity you spew.
Lunch is over…
@anotherteach – fighting back is not bullying. If you’re going to talk all shades of bullying you also need to go well outside the lines of the children. There is political bullying by our bureaucrats – pressuring the content of curricula and behavior itself, there is social bullying that we are all exposed to daily by fringe and special interests in society and simultaneous we have my favorite…”political correctness.” It muzzles most while we all sit back and are subjected to all of the above. So – that’s a fine example set for our children, isn’t it?
Yes – it IS the parent’s job to train the kids. But our schools have marginalized parents for decades. I’m not blaming schools or “the system” for this kid, but there is plenty of negative education taking place every day so now more than ever, parents must be PARENTS and be strong, positive influences to their children. In this case, it’s now in the hands of the legal system – let’s see it do ITS job.
Another teacher was speaking about the children in our schools and their parents. Your need to entertain your own agenda speaks volumes about you and your own boundary issues.
I strongly recommend you read COLUMBINE by Dave Cullen. You need it.
No kidding Billy? And I was talking about the parents of those children. The external pressures are like none we’ve ever seen before. Social media exaggerates this pressure and tosses it in everyone’s face (if you can understand what you’re looking at). So – how are the kids to behave? Enter the parents. I’m not trying to entertain you. This was a tragic incident and from early reports, like in many of these cases, the red flag was high on the pole and “we” did not see it or understand it. Parents and fellow students clearly interacted with this kid and saw what he was up to based on the current news reports.
I’m a little confused. In your first response you say the schools have marginalized parents. Then in your second response you highlight the failures of parents to do their jobs. For those of us working with both sets of kids (those raised responsibly and those not), what exactly should we do?
@anotherteacher – no, I’m saying that parents MUST be PARENTS and involved with their kids. In my opinion, the schools are almost irrelevant to the equation. Turn back the clock – decades ago, and I realize it’s hard to compare, but parents had a greater role for a longer period of a child’s upbringing. We didn’t have “big brother” schools that dictated every aspect of what’s right and acceptable. Rather, parents educated their children with sound social principles of respect for each other (and yes, I’m aware it wasn’t shangri-la) and the schools simply reinforced.
Civics were taught – today it’s taboo to even mention it. Too bad we have accepted a surrender on reinforcing good social behavior and respect from home to classrooms. Now we have “processes.” So to answer the question again – it’s the parents and it always has been. The schools can never substitute for the parents no matter how hard they try, no matter what “processes” they put in place.
It takes 3 seconds to determine who was raised well and who was not. I understand what you are saying – that is not my confusion. I am confused over what do we do with the kids not raised well? Do we simply wait for them to pull the trigger or do something to prevent them? If the parents won’t do it – who will? How many body bags have to be filled to get parents back on the job? It’s too simplistic to believe that saying parents need to parent is enough… how do you get them to actually do it? If we do nothing we need to sit back and respond to tragedies, if we act we’re marginalizing parents… which is it? Believe me, I have enough work raising my children at home, I have no desire to do it at work also. Yet, at the end of the day when I see a kid with no guidance from home whatsoever – what should we do?
Great book–a favorite.
I wouldn’t characterize someone disagreeing with you as ‘shouting you out of the room’. Your view is not the only view. And I don’t recall anyone advocating that parents be anything other than totally involved. I do recall people saying that people who are being bullied don’t need to feel like they have to lay down and take it. One of the terms used was “proportional response”. If you think the incident at Perry Hall yesterday was proportional then you are flat out wrong. But you know that.
You don’t have the only solution and the solution you want to require everyone to follow often does not work. But it does make the educational establishment feel like they are doing something. Just don’t require them to document results and be accountable when their required solution fails.
As a parent we are accountable when our solutions don’t work. As a teacher you are not accountable. When I am accountable you will have to understand that I will follow my best judgment and not yours.
Alex, I’d like to see the data you have that has determined that the established methods of dealing with bullying are ineffective. I do not feel that Perry Hall was a proportional response. I also think leaving the decision of “proprtional response” in the hands of a juvenile sent off to school is asinine.
I’m not asking you to agree with me. I’m asking that if people like you want kids to beat each other to pieces that you host the bout – not send it to school. You are correct – your rules rule at your house – but at school the school’s rules rule. If you don’t like it, home school.
If you send your kid to school to fight – yes, you should be held accountable. Last I looked school is for learning, and with that said the kids are finishing their work… time for me to begin again.
Oh, we don’t disagree. I think that the place for kids to settle the bullying issue is outside the school. And I agree that parents need to be fully involved and if they are there will be substantially less bullying. And what does happen will be less severe.
Proportional response is just that and we both know what it is and what it is not.
Also, let’s remember that there are more options for school than the public schools and home schooling. Private schools have far less incidence of bullying in my experience than do public schools. We can debate that if you want but I suspect that you know it to be true. What you teachers in the public school have to deal with is unfortunate to say the least – and I’m not just talking about bullying – but to some extent it has been brought upon you by the current ‘me’ centered culture of both kids and parents and to some extent the ultra lib philosophy of education. I pulled my kids from public school because of it and am very thankful I did. Unfortunately a lot of parents can’t afford private schools and lot simply don’t care what their kid’s school is like.
Alex, I’m glad your experience with private schools has been good. I could not find data differentiating between public and private schools regarding bullying. Thus, the anecdotal evidence I possess is all I can go on. Friends who teach in private schools relate to me that many things get swept under the rug and kids whose parents or families make big donations live under different conduct codes and grading systems… So, given our collective experiences I’d have to say the numbers are probably about equal or very close to it.
You sir are a Douche and are a prime example of why our school systems are failing (if you really are a teacher).
@ANOTHERHCPSTEACHER
If i remember correctly from your posts last week you were not only advocating parental involvement but that those parents follow the guidelines for Bullying set up by HPCS. i don’t remember one post by anyone stating that the parents not get involved. What they did have problems with were the guidelines and procedures that many felt are ineffective. Yes, there were some off the wall comments made about being the bully rather than the victim but, i don’t recall anybody stating parents should not be getting involved with there kids and the bullying issue in general. Actually, i think it was just the opposite, the fact that you don’t agree with the methods they proposed doesn’t mean that that they don’t believe parental involvement is a necessity.
Anyone that feels matching or escalating violence in the school is a good idea takes themselves out of the discussion. It may be true a parent encouraging their child to bully another person is a possible solution, but I have to pause and think – “What a nitwit.” So, no I don’t equate stupid ideas with real solutions.
Also, if someone feels the process was ineffective the result should be to fix it – period.
The matching violence for violence thing is your personal opinion and your are welcome to it. as far as that stance taking them out of the discussion.. its still your personal opinion. meeting violence with violence is however very valid and proven solution (eye for and eye).
So, basically since what you have stated in these two posts today we can boil your opinion down to “if the parents get involved my way it’s right, any other type of parental involvement that i don’t agree with is wrong”
I do however agree that the process should be fixed and parents need to be involved. but the touchy feely way is not the answer. trying to force kids not to do things that are natural human traits (fighting, bickering etc…) by bureaucracy is woefully inadequate and doomed for failure. it simple won’t work.
Guilty as charged… I am in favor of keeping violence out of school.
“An eye for an eye…” Woefully misapplied to the scenario.
Guilty again… I advocate finding solutions to problems in the absence of violence.
Not guilty… any type of parental involvement is welcome. Guilty part… as long as it does not match or escalate violence.
“Touchy feely” Explain what that is. I checked, I no where mentioned a group hug, I nowhere suggested to “love the problem away” or any other such foolishness. Exactly what are you projecting onto me?
I sense you disagree with the current system of adjudication. So, what is your idea? Your words suggest something, but I’ll give you the courtesy of explaining it.
Eye for an Eye…. is not misapplied to your statement of meeting violence with violence. Sometimes it is necessary.
“touchy feely”…. the viewpoint that physical force is a bad thing. and that everything can be handled bureaucratically or with sensitivity (or more plainly, violence isn’t the answer. But frankly, Sometimes it just is. you may not like it, but it’s true)
no….. sometimes violence is necessary. this idea that violence isn’t the answer is inherently why we are where we are. if violence is met with a like minded force it can go along way to keeping things from escalating (not always but most of the time)
as for disagreeing with the current system. I do and i don’t.
Part of the problem is that it takes too long. and doesn’t involve the parents enough. one of the ways to start fixing the problem is to start making the parents/guardians more accountable and get rid of the “poor Johnny” mindset. i don’t know how to fix it. but only taking one side of the argument(no violence whatsoever) like you are advocating doesn’t help, there has to be a middle ground. (yeah, your gonna try and give me a verbal beatdown over that statement)
yes, yes, I know you are gonna pontificate about how violence is never the answer that it’s just wrong. Frankly that’s just bull. while not always the best solution or the right one, sometimes violence/force is the only one that will work.
Don’t get me wrong i am not trying to promote bullying, i am for the promotion of one’s ability to defend themselves. because being able to defend one’s self from violence (mental and physical) is in my opinion, always the best solution.
Well TSB, I almost feel like I don’t have to respond to you since you make some huge assumptions about what I’m thinking and what I would say. If it helps, you are not accurate.
This might come as a shock to you, but the purpose of school is to learn. That process is made much easier if kids are not beating each other up. It’s bad enough when they decide to use fists to settle problems or rescue their sense of security, but when parents begin to encourage their kids to disrupt the learning process – yeah, I have a problem with that.
If two sets of parents think that it wise for their kids to settle their problems with a duel – heck, sell tickets. I will think they are morons, but as a teacher I can’t get in their way of that. My biggest problem, though, is that parents who advocate the duel are not hosting it – we are in school. So now on top of teaching kids I have to play referee AND keep the other kids safe.
In no post have I ever said violence is never an answer. Adolph Hitler was not going to get talked out of fortress Europe. The Japanese were not going to wake up and realize their empire of conquest was immoral and put it to an end. So, be careful what kinds of attributes you assign people before making them. Respond to my actual words instead of projecting some sort of twisted version of what you think I’d say. That would be a good start.
Thus, while indeed violence is sometimes the answer it is not always the answer. As a child I was beaten up at school at the hands of three bullies. I never struck back and it did stop when the school intervened. My parents never knew about it from me because I was too ashamed of myself for letting it happen. I feel fortunate I turned out as well as I did.
It is true I believe the problems of two people can be discussed and worked out. Find whatever name you want to put on me, but I know there are people in society – nigh even schools – that do care and will be active to help people fix problems. This might come as a surprise to you, but you do know that typically when a victim does fight back the bully usually finds a new victim – right? Again, how does that help?
I’m all for finding a cure to the problem. However, yes I will stick to my opinion like glue when parents desire to make me the referee for the boxing matches they are arranging. I’m paid to teach not referee kids’ fights. If the “home” decides fighting it out will be the best option, fine – fight it out at “home” not at school.
Cindy, Do you know anything about the school system soliciting and posting pictures of elementary students that includes personal identifying information?
@ANOTHERHCPSTEACHER
yes, maybe i did project a little. But, your only outside of the school mantra does nothing to protect the victim. unless the school system can guarantee that they have a sure fire way of stopping the bullying before it starts, the victim should be allowed to protect themselves in the moment, wherever that moment may be. not wait till after school and off school property. taking that line of thinking (preventing the defense of ones’ self in school) it almost seems as though the schools are breeding a “culture of bullying” because the school system can’t stop the bully from being a bully. just allow them to have more victims. Yes, the policies in place are there to try and prevent bullying from happening but as the case in Perry hall shows they don’t work. Maybe, if that kid would have felt that he could have lashed out sooner and would have been allowed to protect himself at school it may not have escalated to using a gun. we may never know the answer to that.
I do believe the idea that a person can’t protect themselves anywhere is wrong and policies set in place that make it clear that it’s not tolerated will in the long run make more kids victim of bullies, not less.
A little? Well, I can’t say you don’t recognize it…
I have to say this – you are all over the place.
Let me get this straight… you want a 100% fool-proof protection bubble around every child that walks through the school doors? How does that happen? Seriously, how is that to happen when this county cut teaching positions to increase class size? When do I do this when I have to prepare kids for high risk tests that will eventually be connected to my evaluation? How can I alone watch and monitor 180+ students?
Perry Hall… Well, it is beginning to look like bullying had far less to do with this than the completely dysfunctional home this young man comes from… Let’s pretend it had everything to do with it… What is the solution?
It is becoming increasingly too common for kids to bring firearms and weapons to school. Do we relax the rules to allow bullies to be equally armed as their possible bullied attackers?
Let us just suppose they limit it to fighting the old fashioned way… How will that look? The bullied kid starts fighting his bully and gets the better of him… so much so that he suffers brain damage from it… who is responsible? Will the parents who encouraged the bullied child be held? Or will the deep pockets of the school system be made to pay up?
Do you see where this is headed? Once it is in the hands of the school to determine who bullied, who got bullied, was the retribution proportional, was the physical injury earned or deserved… who on this planet wants to be held liable for making those decisions?
Call it a mantra if you want, but I have enough to do, enough to concern myself with, and enough of everything else than to monitor 180+ facebook, twitter, and what-not accounts… eaves drop on all their conversations… and then determine who is the bully and who bullied and stop the carnage only after establishing those roles and determine that everything is ‘equal”??
Like I said earlier… “nitwit” is the only fitting word to come to mind. And that word is more applicable when people essentially come on here and declare that there “is no other way” (yeah, I’m accused of sticking to my position – so is everyone else!!) than to let the kids fight it out.
Thus, if you come to your senses and realize what you’re are saying 1) kids fight it out wherever, 2) schools stop bullying and prevent it 100% of the time for 100% of the kids, and 3) schools set policies in place to allow bullies and bullied kids to fight it out; you will realize you are talking like a nitwit.
This has taken way too much of my limited lunch time…
All over the place? I think you are all over the place. i have never changed my stance. My stance is that the current policies and your viewpoint of not in school are wrong. A person should be allowed to protect themselves in the moment. That point hasn’t changed from the original post. Your personal views may have skewed my meaning but i have never wavered.
my stance
sometimes violence/force is necessary and protecting/defending one’s self no matter what environment you are in. policies set in place to discourage or punish protecting one’s self creates an atmosphere that does more harm than good.
You disagree with my stance but it never changed.
yours
OK as long as it’s outside school??
????
and as far as your “bully finds a new victim” statement from your above post is concerned. it almost seems as though you are willing to sacrifice one for the many. i don’t believe that to be true, but you said it.
Also part of my stance is that i believe the only real way to stop a bully is to not allow one’s self to be bullied in the first place. if a person can’t be bullied, there will be no bully.
simple solution is Don’t allow yourself to be bullied. that’s the parents job. That is an area i think we can agree on.
“The only real way to stop a bully is to not allow one’s self to be bullied in the first place.” That is called blaming the victim. You are so clearly part of the problem.
and I every said 100% protection. I said that unless the school can provide 100% protection the policies in place create an environment that allows the bully to flourish and have more victims.
since the school system cannot provide that, the only clear solution is that kids be allowed to defend themselves. if that happens in school, so be it. The majority if the time it will be with fists and word not guns and knives. (statics prove me right. look it up yourself).
as far as nitwits are concerned i think you are one for taking the approach that only your way is right. and not even weighing the merits of mine even though you admit you agree with them on some level. apparently just as long as your day isn’t interrupted by having to be a referee.
Actually, no, it is not okay outside of school. I merely posed the idea that if parents, like yourself, want their kids to fight everyone who bullies them to do so away from where I work educating young people. You are correct, no, I do not want my day interrupted by kids fighting. Who would? (Seriously, do you think teachers should want their day interrupted with fights?)
You are wrong, though, I do not see the merits of anything you suggested and I totally disagree with you. I am beginning to understand that folks like you really don’t mind putting burdens on school personnel to handle your problems from home.
This is pure confusion: you wrote “and as far as your “bully finds a new victim” statement from your above post is concerned. it almost seems as though you are willing to sacrifice one for the many. i don’t believe that to be true, but you said it.”
What? Bullies do what they do for a specific reason. If a victim stands up and confronts the bully and the harassment stops for that person – that bully looks for a new victim. That is a problem! How is that sacrificing anyone???
And, you know what? – you never answered one of my questions.
I’ll make it easy for you… Your child goes to school and bullies another child. Despite the parenting you’ve done, your precious child just turned mean toward another kid. The victim one day responds to your child with an equally well placed punch on his nose. However, this time the bullied kid’s punch knocks your child off his/her feet and they hit their head on a few stairs on their way down. Your child has brain damage now, will likely not be able to hold a job or function in life. Your medical expenses are through the roof. A teacher stood there, after all they knew about the bullying from monitoring your child’s facebook account (even the one they set up with a fake name you don’t know about); and determined that your child “had it coming.”
Who pays when you sue? Who do you hold liable? Be honest. Remember that kid probably comes from a home whose total assets don’t come close to a million dollars… the school system is prepared for costs like those… Be honest. Answer it.
@Billy Jack
No it’s not and no i’m not. It’s called not allowing yourself to pushed around/intimidated (bullied) by others. It’s the parents job to make sure there kids grow up with the confidence to not let others do things to them that they don’t want done or step in to prevent it and ensure(by teaching their kids how to deal with both verbal and physical assault) that it never happens again.
part of what i said originally, parents need to be more involved. that is something we can all agree on.
I would never blame the victim, i was a victim of both verbal and physical abuse. it came to a point that i chose not to be a victim anymore. that is why i take the stance i take. my children ( i have 3, will not be bullied, i am making sure of that, they will/do have problems as most kids do, but, i make sure i address each one. mainly focusing on how they can prevent it from happening to them again. either by protection(self defense), or by teaching them how not to succumb to the verbal assaults. if you see that as blaming the victim then i am sorry you feel that way. because i see that as strengthening the person so that he/she stops being/can’t become a victim.
I will never put the parenting of my children the the hands of those i do not trust. especially the government or it’s entities. they will do nothing but screw it up.
Second, my children are taught to react not instigate. Second, if my child did happen to instigate and had that happen i wouldn’t sue. it was my child’s fault in the first place. no, I am not high and mighty, i have never sued anyone in my life and would not if I am at fault or those i am responsible for are at fault, that’s just me. (i have strong beliefs about the whole suing thing) in the past i have had reason to and chose not to.
Actually, as far as a teacher having to monitor my child’s facebook page, the teacher wouldn’t need too. I monitor all activity my children have with all the media devices they have every single one. there are no fake Id’s because they know it’s the first thing to go if they get caught. and as long as there is open dialog and honesty they have no reason to hide. i would catch my kid acting like a bully and stop it long before any type of incident like you suggest would happen.
Yes, i know no one would want to deal with fighting kids all day but you do it in spite of your no bullying policy. And, by all accounts it’s just getting worse not better. So, clearly the current policy doesn’t work. Also, i am not talking about the everyday type of altercations between two students that just “drop the books” and “go at it in the halls” i’m talking about the ones that happen with the same kids day after day after day. kids see it and even you teachers see it. you may not notice each and every one but you know which ones generally get teased/picked on by others. it’s those kids and those long drawn out instances that i am talking about. Also i never indicated (or hoped i didn’t) that you shouldn’t pull both parties up and discipline but a zero tolerance policy doesn’t work. and the discipline should be lenient if it’s found out that one party was a victim of bulling.
you posed a question to me so know i will pose one to you.
The bully pushes the victim down those same stairs, the child has brain damage now, will likely not be able to hold a job or function in life. the families medical expenses that are through the roof. A teacher was there and couldn’t prevent it from happening. How does the current policy stop that from happening.
You wouldn’t sue… okay. I’m inclined to disbelieve you, but good for you.
Your last note does demonstrate to me that you are talking about something completely different from the topic at hand. I have no desire, and I feel safe saying, neither do any of my colleagues; in rising your kids. If dealing with bullying on school property elevates to the accusation of raising your kids for you… I don’t know how to respond. I guess when I insist on kids exercising politeness I’m stepping in your shoes and should stop…
We can find agreement that zero tolerance policies are ineffective and do not serve justice well.
The current policy wouldn’t stop it, and neither would yours.
One of the problems in this discussion is the label “bullying.” Everything is labelled bullying in the schools and the zero-tolerance attitude only escalates the situation. Kids cannot work things out, even if that means a little hallway shoving. That is immediate grounds for expulsion. So, the pusher can keep taunting while the victim silently, but compliantly stews. Most kids get through this, some do not and we hear about them in the news.
There was a time that standing up to that “bully” was what diffused the situation and curtailed their bad behavior. Other kids were then able to stand together or at least not-in-fear of the tough guy. Funny how that was the same time that kids brought in shotguns to my school for show in tell, and many kids carried pen knives because they were the coolest thing they owned – nobody was stabbed or shot from these outrageous breaches of security!
“Everything is labelled bullying in the schools and the zero-tolerance attitude only escalates the situation. Kids cannot work things out, even if that means a little hallway shoving. That is immediate grounds for expulsion”
You obviously have not read HCPS’s policy manual. This is clearly an exageration!
Policy and practice may not intersect every step of the way, but I am completely familiar with the basis for expulsion, suspension and/or detention in the schools. Detention used to be a very severe punishment for the student and suspension was reserved for very serious issues and/or repeat offenses where the warnings were not heeded. Today, students receive detention for petty issues, thus negating its value as a deterrent, and suspension has followed a similar path. Sorry to burst your bubble but pushing, shoving, and a few swipes will give you the honor to stay home for at least a day from schools I know in the County. All of the above, dished out once or twice might just be the remedy for the local bully. It certainly worked on many that I witnessed and they seemed to straighten up very quickly when knocked down a peg. That just does not happen anymore. That is not an exaggeration.