UPDATED: Added Concept Plan Map depicting approximately 186,000 square foot facility on 16.74 acres, plus two “developer areas” of 9 and 2.8 acres, respectively.
Wal-Mart appears to be moving ahead with plans to build a retail store on a 33-acre undeveloped parcel near the intersection of Plumtree Rd. and Rt. 924 in Bel Air, according to a meeting announcement, purportedly from a representative of Wal-Mart, which was published on Friday, June 29th, in the legal notices section of a local newspaper. The store will order shelves to properly display the products. The Mills shelving supplier will ensure that the units are both durable and aesthetically pleasing. This will enhance the shopping experience and make it easier for customers to find what they need.
The announcement indicates that a community input meeting, a required step in the Harford County development process, will be held by representatives of Wal-Mart at Patterson Mill Middle/High School on July 19th from 6:30 to 8:30 p.m.
The purpose of the meeting is to provide information to the community about the proposed commercial development, which the meeting notice describes as “a Wal-Mart retail store and other commercial uses, with associated infrastructure.” Donald H. Hughes of Bowman Consulting is listed as the point of contact, but Hughes could not be reached for comment late Friday afternoon.
However, two Harford County councilmen said that they had been contacted recently by representatives of the company. Councilman James V. McMahan Jr., representing Bel Air, told The Dagger that his legislative aide had been contacted by the legal firm representing Wal-Mart to arrange a meeting with him, which he said is still in the planning stages. McMahan said that a traffic study commissioned by Wal-Mart had not yet been returned to the county, but that, along with the Department of Planning and Zoning, he planned to take a “hard look” at the study in light of traffic congestion already in the area. Councilman Richard Slutzky, representing Aberdeen, confirmed that his office had also been contacted by Wal-Mart representatives, but he was traveling on Friday and said that he had not yet responded to the meeting request.
Pete Gutwald, director of the Department of Planning and Zoning for Harford County, was not available Friday and officials in his department said they were not aware of a scheduled community input meeting for Wal-Mart. However, Harford County Subdivision Regulations only require that P&Z be notified two weeks prior to the date scheduled by the developer for such a meeting, which, in this case, would be July 5th. Gutwald has said previously that the site in question is zoned for business and is large enough to accommodate a Wal-Mart Super Center.
Wal-Mart has not responded to repeated requests for comment about the company’s plans. Speculation that a store opening in Bel Air would be accompanied by the closing of the nearby Abingdon store has not been confirmed.
A community group formed to oppose Wal-Mart in the Bel Air location, the Bel Air South Community Foundation, is rallying members to attend the July 19th community input meeting to voice their concerns. The group has gathered 400 signatures on an online petition. The petition opposes the store on the grounds that it will hurt existing businesses, increase traffic congestion and may add to crime in the area.
Morita Bruce, president of Friends of Harford, which describes itself as the “citizens’ voice for responsible land use,” cautioned that the purpose of a community input meeting is for the developer to tell the community about the planned development. She said that the public can ask questions and raise concerns, but input from the community can be used, or not, as the developer sees fit. Bruce said that the developer is required to report to P&Z that the meeting was held and provide notes of the input received, but she said that such notes can vary widely in the level of detail recorded.
Below is the text of the announcement of the community input meeting for Wal-Mart in Bel Air, followed by the Harford County Subdivision Regulations for community input meetings.
NOTICE OF COMMUNITY INPUT MEETING
Site Plan for Wal-Mart Retail Store and Other Commercial Uses – Proposal: The site, which is currently zoned B-3 (General Business), includes approximately 33.72 acres (Harford County Tax Map 56, Parcels 56 and 60) located on the southwest corner of the intersection between Plumtree Road and Emmorton Road in Harford County, Maryland (1st Election District). The Applicant proposes to develop the site as a Wal-Mart retail store and other commercial uses, with associated infrastructure.
THE ABOVE SITE PLAN WILL BE THE SUBJECT OF A COMMUNITY INPUT MEETING TO BE HELD:
In the auditorium of Patterson Mill Middle/High School, 85 Patterson Mill Road, Bel Air, Maryland 21015 Thursday, July 19, 2012 from 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m.
The purpose of this meeting is for the Applicant to provide information to the community regarding the proposed commercial development (including draft plans for the site layout), and to allow citizens to ask questions and make comments and suggestions.
For more information, please contact Donald H. Hughes, P.E., of Bowman Consulting at (703) 464-1000 or dhughes@bowmanconsulting.com.
If you require disability related accommodations, please contact Donald H. Hughes, P.E., of Bowman Consulting at (703) 464-1000 or dhughes@bowmanconsulting.com at least five (5) business days prior to the date of the meeting.
Subdivision Regulations for Harford County, Maryland
§ 268-20. Community Input Meetings.A. Prior to submission of a concept plan, preliminary plan or site plan, for any developments generating 250 or more trips per day, as determined by the most recent version of the I.T.E. Trip Generation Manual, or determined to be a nontransient noncommunity water system, the developer shall hold a community meeting.
B. The community meeting shall be held near the site of the proposed development, preferably in a public or institutional building with adequate parking. The meeting shall be scheduled to start between 6:00 p.m. and 8:00 p.m. on a weekday evening, or scheduled between 9:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. on a Saturday, excluding all State and County holidays.
C. At least 2 weeks prior to the community meeting, the developer shall ensure that notice of the date, time and location of the community meeting, as well as information about the type of subdivision, including the proposed number of units, has been provided to the following:
(1) All adjoining property owners identified in the records of the State Department of Assessment and Taxation, by first class mail;
(2) The Department of Planning and Zoning, which will post the meeting notice on the Department’s website; and
(3) The County Council.
D. At least 2 weeks prior to the community meeting, the developer shall ensure that the property that is the subject of the proposed development is posted with a notice, obtained from the Department of Planning and Zoning, stating the date, time and location of the community meeting. The notice shall briefly describe the proposed development, specifying the type of subdivision and number of proposed units, and include the Department’s website address. The notice shall be on a sign measuring at least 22 inches by 28 inches. The notice shall be conspicuously placed on the property, near the right-of-way line of each public road that the property has frontage on, at such location that the notice shall be visible, if possible, from each public road on which the property fronts. Following the posting, the developer shall use reasonable efforts to maintain the notice in a condition visible to the public until the date of the community meeting.
E. At least 2 weeks prior to the community meeting, the developer shall ensure that notice of the community meeting is published once a week for 2 consecutive weeks, in at least 2 newspapers generally circulated in Harford County.
F. The purpose of the community meeting is for the developer to provide information to the community regarding the proposed development and to allow citizens to ask questions and to make comments and suggestions.
G. At the community meeting, the developer shall present draft plans for the site layout.
H. The developer shall ensure that a certification of mailed meeting notices and a certification of the newspaper advertisements are included with the preliminary plan or site plan when the plan is submitted to the County.
I. Within 45 calendar days of the community meeting, the developer shall submit a summary of the comments made by citizens at the community meeting to the Department.
J. If the developer does not submit a concept plan, preliminary plan or site plan to the Department within 1 year of the community meeting, or if the plan submitted is substantially different from the plan presented at the community meeting, another community meeting and notification, as specified under this section, shall be required.
Concept Plan Map
Reopen the petition pls.
WHY can’t we just leave land undeveloped. It looks a lot better then concrete buildings, we are suppose to be a country setting, but the last few years we look like a city.
Because it’s in the County DEVELOPMENT envelope and it’s not supposed to look like countryside– unfortunately.
There’s no use complaining about development in the development envelope.
Additionally the development envelope was discussed in the Master Plan public meetings which had about say 50 folks. So I have to agree with Noble, if its in the envelope, you know the T everyone wants to make sure doesn’t expand into the Ag side of Harford then that what your gonna get…DEVELOPMENT.
How do you think the people that have lived in Harford County for 50-60 years feel? It used to be that there was almost nothing between Edgewood and Bel Air except for a few houses. THAT was countryside! After the influx of residents to Harford County everything that they left behind to move to the “country” has now come with them! Suburban sprawl is here to stay and will continue to grow and prosper where ever there is an acre of land to build on.
Yes, there has been lots of development in the county in the past 50 years. Actually, in the past 200 years. Consider what it looked like then. We can debate elsewhere the wisdom of humans spreading across the earth. However, in this case, Harford County citizens adopted the concept of zoning many years ago, thank goodness. (Try living comfortably in an area without zoning….good luck.) Land speculators bought huge parts of Harford County years ago, in hopes that they could cash in later. Their risk paid off in many cases. They cashed in. Not a surprise. Capitalism at work. And viola, all the buildings you don’t like to see. Another solution adopted years ago: restrict development to a limited area of the county, the Development Envelope, the upside-down T along routes 40 and 24. I much prefer new county residents and businesses to be concentrated here, rather than eat up more open space. Just like a city, we build a concentrated infrastructure here to accommodate lots of people. MUCH cheaper than spreading it all over the county. This, therefore, reduces pressure on the open spaces. Take home message: petition instead for EXCELLENT development, with green building principles, down-lighting, less impervious surface, architecture that blends with Harford’s history, more bike and transit and walking areas, require open space parks for EACH project. In short, citizens must insist on the highest standards of design to retain the highest “quality of life.” We citizens get what we deserve when we fight the developers AFTER it’s too late! Too late to change the B-3 zoning of this land at Plumtree. PERFECT time to agitate, request, pressure, and demand the BEST DESIGN for this land, whatEVER the project. Get educated about what you want to see and get INTO the process!!
Whoever currently owns that land has the legal right to sell it to whomwever he wishes. Would you want someone telling you what to do with your land?
Having said that, I am very much opposed to this idea. Traffic in that area is already very heavy, and the last thing needed there is a major retailer like Wal-Mart.
But it looks like the die has been cast… 🙁
Would you mind if I built a gas station next door to you? How about a porn shop? After all you feel “Whoever currently owns that land has the legal right to sell it to whomwever he wishes. Would you want someone telling you what to do with your land?”
You can’t just “do anything” with your land. That’s what Planning and Zoning controls, which is why we have land that is zoned agricultural, business and residential.
Dahan owns that property, and he does think he can do whatever he wants with that property. Unfortunately he will sell out to highest bidder, and that seems to be Walmart.
Because a lot of americans medicate by shopping
I am disappointed in myself and our community for not being more involved in decisions governing the few remaining open spaces in our area, even though that may be “the T”, or “the development corridor”. Where was I when this land was up for rezoning? I can’t go back. What can be done now? In 10 years from now will I be more proud of our community because it has a Walmart? Will the 75 to 100 more jobs improve our local economy? How will this big box store impact the quality of life for the surrounding community? Walmart has become as American as apple pie, and baseball. Does it represent what is good about modern America? Or does it represent what is wrong. The quick dollar; cheaper and often less quality products, many of which end up in landfills more quickly, sold by sales people who have little connection to the store. In contrast,very unlike the local ma and pop store where everyone knew your name. My neighborhood store in Detroit was Blue Dot. We walked there to get penny candy. The owners sold me the candy, opened and closed the store and swept up at closing. I knew them. They knew me and my mom and dad. This was a congested area without crime. It is easier to commit a crime against a corporation then it is a person. So, do we really want the convenience as we drive our cars to a closer Walmart? Who will really benefit from this new Bel Air Plumtree Walmart? Who thought this is what we wanted? I can’t help but feel we are being duped but have no grounds on which to stand because we did not attend the rezoning meetings back in 2009. We can only work to stop it now and hope we collectively can. Then, we need to continue to make sure that area is developed with something we can be proud of in 10 years.
Dont beat yourself up Jodi. They would have still probably done this to this area. This part of the county has somehow become a “dumping ground” for just about everything. This is not even close to what Smart Growth is all about. I guess Smart Growth is backed up traffic on the few arteries coming into the county where people live. No one is going to want to live here anymore and why should they. The traffic will get funneled out into the neighborhoods in an effort to get around all the traffic. The new school and fire station at Patterson Mill will have so much traffic at the light when people go around to avoid it. There are 4 arrival and dismissal times at that school too.
Within 4 days this week there have been 2 accidents at Plumtree and 924 and this is with no school traffic and people on vacation. I think I made the mistake of thinking no one in their right mind would ever even think about putting something that huge in that little spot and drawing even more traffic out on 24 and 924 but if there is a way to screw up a county, Harford County is tops. Walmart wants to put a light at Bright Oaks. Ok big problem now is cars turning from Bel Air South Parkway onto 924 and the traffic being stopped starting at Patterson Mill and Plumtree hence so many accidents – many of them multi cars. They want to put another light so maybe the cars won’t be able to turn onto 924 and I guess the traffic can all the way back to 24. 24 will be even more backed up then it is now. Now tell me again why do we need a Wal Mart here? Oh maybe to go look for one of their “advertised sale items” that they just don’t happen to have in stock…
Will only add to the traffic in that area. Why not go to Forest Hill.
Not Forest Hill…Kohls was too much! Try going to Kleins/ShopRite and making a left out of the parking lot!! I can wait at least 10 minutes sometime just to pull out of my neighborhood off of 924/Rocks Rd. Forest Hill does not have the roads and probably never will since we run into the Rock State Park where the roads cant be widened.
Why would you ever try to make a left out of Klein’s in Forest Hill when you can just go to the light at Colgate Dr. nearby??
There are two Walmarts close by. Abingdon and Fallston. Why do we need one in Bel Air? Ugh.
Because the Abingdon one is deed restricted from selling groceries for a number of years, the traffic is also horrible for that location.
I agree. The traffic leading to the Abingdon Walmart is horrendous and the new intersection is horrendous to. Lots of accidents. They should close the abingdon walmart and build a new one on plumtree rd. Last I heard they were going to close the REGAL Cinemas, and BJ’s due to the new shopping center going up near wegmens in box hill south.
KEM, that’s exactly what they’re going to do…close Abingdon, and open the Bel Air one.
I’m wondering the same thing. If you live in that area and need something from Wal-Mart, there are two of them (or three, if you count the one on Route 40 in Aberdeen) within a 10 minute drive. Why on earth is another one needed? Is the market for Wal-Mart that strong?
I wonder the same thing about Target. Not that I dislike Target, but exactly how many big box stores of the same brand do you need within fifteen minutes of each other? Do you long for the days when employment increases were not measured in retail jobs? Where do the people work that can afford to support all that retail? I think Senator Phil Gramm once said “You cannot afford a $500 billion defense budget on a Taco Bell economy.”
The area is already really clogged up. I don’t think we need another Walmart. There are two within a few miles of each other.
Like it or not Wal-Mart is coming, Wal-Mart gets what Wal-Mart wants. When the Plumtree store opens the Abingdon store will close. An obscure clause in the lease of the Abingdon store does not allow Wal-Mart to sell groceries for 99 years from the time the store is built as reported in the Dagger. Now the Bel-Air South residents will have frequent visitors from the Edgewood Area coming to take advantage of the great bargains only found at Wal-Mart.
Not sure where you get your information, I’d appreciate a link.
Last I read the deed restriction on the lease only applies until 2018– 6 more years. (5.5 really) Why can’t WalMart wait 5 years?
Also, as I have repeatedly pointed out and haven’t seen anyone refute yet, the deed restriction is NOT enforced by the County or any regulation or zoning. That restriction is ONLY enforced by the owner of the land WalMart leases in Abingdon and it was originally designed to protect the Weiss which is no longer there because both properties were owned by the same developer.
It seems like the owner of the land WalMart leases can simply decide to ignore the deed restriction and let WalMart do whatever it wants, but for some reason they aren’t.
Until I hear a definitive reason why this can’t be done, I am going to assume that the deed restriction is just a ploy to make people think they HAVE to find another location for the Abingdon store.
Your logic is sound but … Wal-Mart wants to build at Plumtree and they will!
No disputing that, but if there are going to go about it via shenanigans I’d like to call them out on it.
Weiss no longer exists because the new owner of the property kicked out the competition for Wegmans. You think they will let wallmart sell groceries?
How did you come to this conclusion?
What an elitist and snobbish comment.
The people in Chestertown stopped them in their town. So nothing is impossible.
And what is wrong with people from Edgewood? Could you possibly be more elitist or condescending? Ohhh, you probably mean that some black people might drive up route 24, huh? Well, guess what? All of us who live on the wrong side of the tracks are allowed to go where we want in the 21st century. Your comment is repellent.
If that comment upset you, I suggest you consider the behavior and social conditions in Edgewood that provoked the comment and ask yourself if that upsets you as well.
Beemerman: We are so tired of your racism. Give it a rest dude.
All you need to know about this meeting is that “…input from the community can be used, or not, as the developer sees fit….” When has Wal-Mart given a fig about community input?
The only community input they care about happens at their cash registers.
Can we get them to make changes in the roadway that inconvenience everyone for months and allow for entrances and exits that are major contributors to further traffic congestion?
That is what they citizens are crying out for.
As long as they surround it with a pharmacy (or two,) gas station(s), a bank and a couple fast food places I don’t see why it should be a problem. Can we insist that it be open 24 hours?
I’d be careful in planning that “Community Input Meeting.” I foresee an overflow crowd disrupting the meeting with a spontaneous outbreak of the loud chant, “We want a Walmart! We want a Walmart!”
If it pleases the Dagger, related reading:
Ten Ways WalMart Changed the World
http://business.time.com/2012/07/02/ten-ways-walmart-changed-the-world/
I wonder if the traffic study had to take into consideration the new fire station that will be opening about 2000ft down the road on 924. I imagine it will be difficult as it is right down to take a fire truck or ambulance down 924. Now add some extra Wal-mart traffic to the mix.
Beating the big-box stores HAS been done in other areas. http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20061207_how_to_beat_wal_mart/
This store is NOT needed – and honestly, Forest Hill doesn’t want it either.
Personally, I’m looking forward to shopping at the new WalMart on Plumtree. I would do anything to avoid that mess in Abingdon and I won’t shop there unless it is an emergency.
Oh, there will definitely be a new WalMart on Plumtree. Most of the people in the area want it. How do I know? WalMart doesn’t waste it’s time or money on places where it is not wanted.
Klein’s in The Festival will kick up a fuss. Of course they would. A few people who don’t want anything built anywhere at anytime will also be shouting. And when the noise dies down and the dust settles there will be your new WalMart. Ta da!
Are you kidding me? You don’t like the traffic down at the Walmart now and you think that this will improve things? You clearly have never been on 924 then, because it is a zoo. I know as I live and work right by PMHS and can assure you that this will make things so much worse. Maybe the summer months won’t be as terrible, but the entire school year, with all of those kids driving, added with the Sonic and new fire station, it will be an absolute disaster!!!!
LLJr: You think our local politicians care for the citizen’s woes when they always bend over for big business? Please, even when the community voiced opposition to a rezoning of a home on Patterson Mill Rd. to allow for a business, good ole Capt Jim just bent over.
Good old Captain Jim can always be counted on to bend over. He’s Harford County’s equivalent to Babs Mikulski…got this folksy image he promotes, and that’s all there is to him.
Alex R: It is attitudes such as yours that allowed the “mess in Abingdon” to come about in the first place. “Clutter” is not convenient. How do those of us who prefer country living get urban encroachment under control? I am not anti-development, but how much is enough?
Yet I must admit that having this discussion with someone who can say, “I look forward to shopping at …Walmart” leads me to wonder if you could ever understand the feelings I would like to convey.
JHinJ-ville,
Like you, I prefer country living. But I don’t kid myself in to thinking I am going to find it anywhere near Bel Air or Abingdon. Not sure what I am going to do but I also don’t want to continue moving ever further toward Pennsylvania.
I also understand that there are a lot of people who live in economic conditions that make WalMart their preferred, even required, shopping destination. Why don’t we give them a break and stop all of this ‘not in my backyard’ stuff?
And my attitude doesn’t have anything to do with the mess in Abingdon where Lowe’s and BJ’s and Target, etc., now are. That mess is totally the fault of planning and zoning who permitted a very narrow and one road access. Someone should have lost their job for that.
I don’t know how long you have lived in Harford County, but the difficulty of access to the Abingdon retail area was a compromise with the VERY strong opposition to having any retail development in that area. It was quite a long time ago (it probably started in the late 1970’s) and I remember strong protests about development in that area. It’s not a coincidence that there is no access to the area via I95. The communities lost that battle with Wal Mart.
In all fairness the community at the time was vastly different in scope and size!
Yeah, the good folks in Constant Friendship were bound and determined they were not going to have a mall in their community. Talk about winning a battle and losing a war!
The elevation changes would be a pain to deal with, but the road between Walmart and Target (Arundel Ct?) could be extended to meet the 24S to 95S ramp, letting traffic enter/exit the complex by another route.
24 is a state limited acces road, meaning intersections and ramps. Harford is already one over the limit so it is not gonna happen.
Then go to the new one in Fallston!! Obviously, you dont live right near Plumtree where they want to build! Guess your home will not be effected by the traffic, congestion and decrease in home values!! I know I would NEVER want to buy a home next to a Walmart!
Having a Wal-Mart is going to destroy Main st and Bond, they are very good at that. For those that are praising there entry in the area rest assured that will be the only game in town as Ace Hardware, The Mill, and more will go out of business. Also, our traffic has become a nightmare and our death rate is up, this will only contribute along with an increase in robberies, thefts and attacks that typically accompany a Wal-Mart. We need to keep the small main street feel or this town will lose its status as “the Heart of Harford”
Stop with the destroy Main St. talk! Home Depot and Lowes both moved in and Ace Hardware or as most longtime residents know it as “Courtland hardware” adapted to the situation and survived! Good small businesses can handle the big box competion and bad ones go under. Wal-Mart can not sell groceries due to the restriction and they can not expand to the size they need to be a larger volume store. Everyone comes on here and complains but I assure you the store will be extremely busy, and you all know it! Welcome Wal – Mart!!!!!
Small stores are able to be more responsive to the market and serve their customers with niche products that Walmart cannot or will not stock.
For example, a hardware store selling quality tools (John Deere, Stihl, Snapper, etc) vs Walmart’s junk (Remington, WeedEater, etc) or just tools that Walmart doesn’t carry (tap & die sets, welding supplies, etc). Gun stores cry about Walmart selling sporting firearms for cheaper than their distributors can buy them, but Walmart doesn’t stock handguns or (in Maryland) semiautomatic carbines, which gives the gun stores an area they can operate in and offer their customers products that the big stores refuse to deal in.
I am sure that they did their road study during the summer, so that they could conveniently forget to account for Patterson Mill High School traffic.
If they build this, they seriously need to add AT LEAST one lane to 924 each way and do the same for Plumtree. This will be a traffic nightmare!
Anyone else remember how deadlocked traffic is in that area during the Christmas shopping season? Wait until they add Walmart…holy heck!
I love when bel air snobs complain about a walmart. It’s only acceptable in other neighborhoods. I personally can not wait for the abingdon one to close and move to bel air. It will allow me easier access to target and lowes.
There is nothing snobbish about wanting to keep Bel Air feeling like Bel Air. You need to get over your inferiority complex…
So where do you want to go back to? Cows on Route 1 next to the Harford Mall? Everyone who is longing for the old times are blind to the fact that this is progress. As a 25 year resident of Abingdon. When the county planners back in the late 80’s and 90’s pushed through their vision. They lost sight of the fact of the needed infrastructure along Route 924 from 95 to Belair. There was a great land rush homes, business and offices all grew along along the 5 mile strip. Now the last owners of long held properties are being sold off and developed.Belair is the county seat and the hub of everything, Get over it. The Walmart is going in on the last huge parcel of land in this part of the county. The rest of the land in the area is going toward the Cultural center/open space park on the other side of Festival Shopping Center. But of course no talk of that…
C’mon, Beemerman,
Bel Air doesn’t feel like Bel Air? I guess maybe you are right. Man, they have paved the streets and put in electricity and installed traffic lights and everything. Why I hardly recognize it anymore. I wouldn’t be surprised if they actually get that there new fangled Internet thing one day.
Just joshin’ you. Don’t get all in a lather.
I agree, they seem to forget they have their own Target.
How do you think the people that have lived in Harford County for 50-60 years feel? It used to be that there was almost nothing between Edgewood and Bel Air except for a few houses. THAT was countryside! After the influx of residents to Harford County everything that they left behind to move to the “country” has now come with them! Suburban sprawl is here to stay and will continue to grow and prosper where ever there is an acre of land to build on.
“Change” is not synonymous with “progress.” “Development” is not synonymous with “improvement.” We knew a cow pasture in the middle of town couldn’t last forever, but we loved it while we had it.
Of course we understand that development is inevitable and that the countryside will shrink as the population expands. But we don’t need a Walmart in every neighborhood and we don’t need seven neighborhood pharmacies. Many of us do not believe that “sprawl” is not synonymous with “prosperity.” In fact, we believe quite the opposite. If you want an urban environment, move to Baltimore!
I’m 50. Lived in Harford forever. “Development Envelope” has turned South/Central Harford into a city. Too late to go back now. Just hope the new store parking lot has adequate entrance and exits controlled by red lights. Festival nearby – you take your life in your hands going in and out of there. Also hope if this Walmart is to be built,they do it right and really build it to house plenty of everyting. Abingdon has lots of stuff but no room, Fallston, for all the hype really isn’t stocked that well. There are still fields and farms out there – just have to look harder. Baltimore county now actually cheaper tax wise than Harford, Kingsville, Baldwin, etc – pretty open still, pretty nice.
The roads in this county can’t handle the population it already has. Rt 24, 924 and 22 need serious improvement. I live in Abingdon right by the Festival and trust me, traffic is already a nightmare. If they would just expand the roads then the Walmart wouldn’t be such an issue. Now if drivers on the road would just have a little respect and patience for each other, maybe there wouldn’t be so many accidents……..
So often the tail wags the dog. If you don’t want a Walmart…don’t shop there; it’ll go out of business in short order. Problem with opposition to developement is folks don’t hold together. Vote with your wallet. I sure remember the intense opposition to the Forest Hill Kohls, but the parking lot is always full now. It is amazing to drive around Belair anymore…hideous strip mall after hideous strip mall; it’s pretty bad.
Money Tree,
My take on this is that the opposition is initially very vocal but in the end they are a very loud but very small minority and ineffective at best.
You are correct that voting with your pocketbook is the most effective opposition. And, as evidenced by your Forest Hill Kohl’s example, I conclude that the majority wanted it because they are patronizing it.
I came to Harford County a very long time ago because it was rural and I wanted to escape the city. Many, many of us did that. And by coming we have helped somewhat to create the situation we have today. At what point do we say “Well, I came and got mine but I don’t want any of the rest of you to come and get yours.” That might be seen as elitist and arrogant. Maybe just a little?
That is the rub isn’t it…whether Harford County, the State of Oregon…pick any bucolic, beautiful space and if it’s anywhere near an armpit like Baltimore or California (to keep the correlation) you’ll soon find everyone running somewhere else because it’s better over there and suddenly you wake up and realize you can’t keep what you overrun. The only answer to sprawl since we can’t seem to do this on our own (which I loathe because I detest government restrictions to personal property), but there must be a “greater good” component to decisions regarding land use. Unfortunately I detect a level of corruption and collusion between those that get to decide what gets permitted where (our local government) and developers. Local leadership doesn’t abide by their own development envelope (45 acres now being considered for a sports complex over by Schucks Rd) outside the envelope so how would we ever think they’d reconsider a project based upon problems with traffic, etc. – it just won’t happen. When they dumped the public employee pensions and increased public employee wages and benefits here recently with no real way to pay for that long term it becomes obvious to me we will be forced to either raise property taxes or shove as much development into every corner of this county to increase collections – we can’t print money. I sure would prefer a little bit of open space dotted in and among the mess they’ve created – places where you can take your kids and sit under a tree but that doesn’t produce revenue. We’re hosed.
“I sure would prefer a little bit of open space dotted in and among the mess they’ve created – places where you can take your kids and sit under a tree but that doesn’t produce revenue. We’re hosed.”
Yes we are hosed as long as people vote for politicians who care more for developers than for their constituents. But, then, I’m used to the tea party voting against their own best interests.
At least the tea party folks are honest…and seem to understand the correlation between the costs of government and how that affects the need for revenue. I would tend to believe you would support public employee unions and whatever their demands might be? If so without development there’s no way to pay for it. Don’t gripe about sprawl when you demand more and more from the government because there’s an absolute correlation.
The Money Tree: What you don’t seem to understand with your “…without development there’s no way to pay for it…” argument is that more development means MORE services and their added taxes are a wash. Yes, I support public employees need for a living wage to provide those services without which life in any community would be untenable. The ONLY way to ensure services to the tax payer is revenue. Too many people want needed services without wanting to pay for them and I would guess you are one. And as far as tea party folks being honest: I would call them uninformed at best.
With all due respect that makes no sense. If you have a fixed budget and it includes existing salaries and positions for the government and you either add new positions or increase wages/benefits for the current group of employees you must increase your budget to pay for it. Given property values are flat and the future will not see increases as have occurred in the past and knowing over 50% of revenues are provided by property taxes other than increases to the property tax rates or adding to the numbers of those paying property taxes will increase your budget. That means the later option mandates development. This is pretty simple stuff really…
Call it Bel Air all you want when it’s convenient but it’s still Abingdon. We have become Bel Air’s dumping grounds, the slums of Abingdon. Isn’t it enough we already have the wonderful Great Wall of Abingdon surrounding the Wegmans “complex”. There’s already a Wal-Mart on Emmorton and 24 along with TARGET, BJ’s, Taco Bell, McDonalds, Lowes, Regal Cinemas, Self-Storage, DSW, Wine World…….WHY in the name of God do we “need” yet another Wal-Mart or for that matter any other “shopping destination” lest than a mile up the road???? What say we just level that useless excuse for a mall and star there? I’ve watched recreation areas disappear, no ball fields, no soccer or lacrosse fields and if you want your kid to play you have to PAY to use private facilities or drive to Churchville, Fallston or even Baltimore County….pretty sad for the second largest rec. center in the state. All we’re lacking are the multiple car dealerships.
AAACCCTTTUUUAAAALLLYY… it is not Abingdon either. It is Emmorton.
The multiple car dealerships will get here soon enough.
“I’ve watched recreation areas disappear, no ball fields, no soccer or lacrosse fields and if you want your kid to play you have to PAY to use private facilities or drive to Churchville, Fallston or even Baltimore County….” You do realize that these cost money (taxes) and our government refuses to spend any of it on our kids.
If you looked at the Wegmans, you’d realize it is a retaining wall to increase the level, usable ground for the complex, not a barrier.
Actually we have the Jones dynasty on Route 1 for that.
I understand the opposition to the proposed Wal-Mart and hope to see a lot of turn out at the community input meeting. But remember that the purpose of the meeting is not to walk up to mic and shake your fist in outrage.
Attend and analyze the plans presented and offer your ideas and concerns assuming that the Wal-Mart will definitely be built. Go in with the goal to make a bad situation better. Go in to get informed.
As a nearby resident and from following this story, there are a number of ways for Wal-Mart minimize their impact:
-Improve the surrounding infrastructure, including widening 924, adding a light at Bright Oaks Drive, improving the turn lanes from 24.
-Restrict overnight parking of trucks and RVs. The site is far from the interstate and trucking routes and large vehicles quickly wear down the roads.
-Improve pedestrian access around the entire site.
-Build a sustainable building. Wal-Mart has embraced this practice lately. Minimize the run-off and exceed the MD stormwater requirements. Plant plenty of trees and possibly leave some of the remaining trees. Forest conservation may warrant it anyway.
-Address concerns for increased crime with onsite overnight security.
-Hire more employees to pickup litter and gather shopping carts from the road. (Ever been by the Golden Ring Wal-Mart?)
-If there will be out-buildings attract local businesses to lease, not chain restaurants, or national banks, or another GD Walgreens.
If you attend, take notes or record the meeting. Send in your notes to Planning and Zoning, to your councilman, and to David Craig along with your opinion for or against it. If you oppose it hold protests at the CIM, petition at the CIM, rally like the NoKohls group, only stronger, go to council meetings, and when all else fails – Don’t Go There To Shop.
Don’t think anyone should go into any public meeting and start screaming but I respectfully reject nearly all your suggestions. Number one, if you widen Rte. 924 all you accomplish is another “if you build it they will come” whereby removing the existing traffic pressure only encourages and in all intents and purposes enables additional congestion (building), two, improving pedestrian walkways…it’s unsafe to have people walking in an around a series of strip malls – just here recently we had a fatality right in the same area where this Wal-Mart is proposed, three, trees planted in and around a parking lot are of limited value to people, animals, birds or anything else that breathes – nobody sits under those trees, picnics or any other like activity – in fact the only birds you see are usually picking at garbage in the parking lot. Lastly, the idea of building a 12,000 sq. foot sustainable building isn’t green any way you look at it – besides they’ll be abandoning a building nearly that big that’ll sit empty until it finds a tenant. Nothing wrong with raising your voice to public officials – not screaming or ranting but certainly letting them know how you feel and with passion – consider the amount of frustration we all go through just trying to get down 924 as it is – hours of wasted time and inconvenience and the county planners ought to know some of us have about had it up to here.
I agree that widening any road is a sad last resort to accommodate growth. I doubt an extra lane would be added to 924, only the addition of dedicate turn lanes. That all depends on the traffic study though. The modifications shown on the plan is about what I expected.
A lack of pedestrian walkways will cause more deaths. I think the guy hit on Bel Air South Parkway was not safely crossing the street, but still… The sidewalks at the area are discontinous and crosswalks are lacking. There are plenty of walkers, joggers, and kids from PMHS on 924. Provide access alterante to cars to reduce traffic.
Trees will be added to site due to the SWM and P&Z codes. They absorb runoff. Reduce the heat island affect. Buffer sound. Provide habitat more so than a vast asphalt field. They look nicer too.
When considering “green”, I agree that it is not green to abandon one store, mow down a tree stand, and build a new one. But if they’re going to do it, they should do what they can to further minimize their impact. They can add cut-off parking lights to reduce the halo effect of birght lights at night, pervious parking to treat the stormwater, making the building green – green roof, solar, skiylghts, efficient water and energy systems. Even add a park space.
It looks like there will be a light at Bright Oaks. Hopefully the three lights will be coordinated well to keep 924 moving. This area will be like Business Rt 1 in Bel Air. It’s already as congested. I disagree with the traffic circle idea between two busy intersections and near a school. Buses would clog it up. Weekends would be a mess. I would rather see the status quo.
The Money Tree: I can’t believe anyone who is concerned with traffic congestion would advocate to NOT widening a road. Didn’t you just say “…consider the amount of frustration we all go through just trying to get down 924 as it is – hours of wasted time and inconvenience … some of us have about had it up to here….”?
Two, tress provide an aesthetic softening to a harsh, asphalt parking lot. What, you want this to look like downtown Baltimore?
It’s a very slippery slope in which widening and expanding roads seems to only justify further developement which in turn creates congestion which demands widening the roads which justifies further development.
I agree with you: the only solution in my opinion is NO WAL WART!
To the trees comment – parking lot trees don’t do much good to anyone. Very limited aesthetic and they’re typically unhealthy since they build them in 2 foot wide sad and normally trash filled islands. It’s lipstick on a pig…
Then perhaps we should demand a ten foot barrier of healthy trees.
It’d be nice to create an open space. Sounds like Walmart should have 4+ acres leftover after all the developement. Why not set it aside for a park? They won’t – I promise you they won’t because Walmart is extremely predatory…every penny matters to them and they’re after Target down the road.
Trees should be used as a buffer around the property along with a burm.
And I believe the pedestrian killed you were referring to was not in a crosswalk, and maybe because there wasnt any crosswalk at all. The entire area should be blanketed with sidewalks and crosswalks.
They should put a playground in the 2 acre parcel.
No he wasn’t in a crosswalk but just the effect of encouraging pedestrian ingress/egress between strip malls means more people will be moving outside designated walkways and darting across traffic. It’s inevitable.
Restricting overnight parking on private property is a hard sell.
Walmart is nice enough to let RV’ers stay there overnight on a limited basis for their safety, so they’re not trying to sleep on a highway shoulder or questionable rest stop prior to moving on. They do not let RVers camp out and make a vacation of it, its to rest, use the store’s restroom (you never want to go #2 in your RV if you can avoid it), grab some fresh food or supplies and move on.
The truckers stay there because Walmart gives deliveries a 2-hour window, early or late and the driver loses a portion of the delivery fee so they will idle in the lot until their window opens. Those delivery windows are also in the middle of the night so the trucks are not moving around during the day causing traffic issues in the crowded lot.
Any group of truckers sitting and idling for hours will in no uncertain terms attract prostitutes.
And you would know this how?
Because I used to work in a location that had truck traffic in and out – we didn’t open until 6:30 and some of the truckers would get there earlier and idle until we opened. The hookers would be so bold as to knock on the cab doors of the trucks – sometimes just open up the doors and let themselves in. How do I know; firsthand from the guys that weren’t buying. Heck we had to call the cops once because one of the whores was high and walking around topless in front of our facility.
well that would certainly put a few people back to work at least and it probably pays more than wallmart
Maybe candidate Gahler should write a letter to Dagger saying how Sheriff Bane has failed to handle the hypothetical hooker problem.
Sheriff Bane could borrow some trucks and have his officers sit in them while they are idling, ready to bust all of the hookers that show up. Time for the Sheriff to be proactive on this issue. Don’t wait for Mr. Gahler to catch the whores!
Thanks for the heads up Kharn.
I think another lighted intersection at bright oaks is a terrible idea. Too many lights too close together. Roundabout maybe. Maybe.
But I agree with your overall point. Demand whatever you want.
UPDATED: Added Concept Plan Map depicting approximately 186,000 square foot facility on 16.74 acres, plus two “developer areas” of 9 and 2.8 acres, respectively.
All the Abingdon employees are talking about that store closing in about 2 years. So the Bel Air Store won’t be “close” to any Abingdon store. Apparently some type of sporting goods shop is taking the building – at least that was the latest from a WalMart employee last week.
It’s all hearsay. Last year the sporting goods store was taking the place of Weiss. This year WalMart. Next year?
Don’t place too much weight on what anyone says at this point.
A Walmart in Bel Air? HAHAHAH. What a total joke. Down the street from Target and up from BJs? Well….I guess if Bel Air got a Walmart then the people of Fallston could come and use it. Right? What a bunch of morons we have running this place!
It may interest you to know that there already is a Wal Mart in Fallston. Do we really need another one 5 miles or so away? Just how lazy are people that they can’t drive to Fallston?
I 100% agree with you.I live on 924 and the traffic is terrible.I take the bus to work and have a hard time getting across the street at cranbrook ,also my yard backs up to 924 and the noise from the road is so loud.do we really need another business on this road.
Proud,
You and I hardly agree on much but I also don’t think that a WalMart at Plumtree is ‘needed’ at all. The trouble I have with it is the traffic and overcrowding. I agree that there is a strip mall and pharmacies on every other corner, more than are needed, and half of them are in decline.
On the other hand, I also have trouble with the government having its nose in everything. I could rant for hours re: Kelo vs. City of New London. It was a very wrong decision and has been proven to be wrong based on the fact that all of the seized land remains totally undeveloped after 7 years.
The simple truth is that a Walmart at Plumtree will probably be patronized heavily (someone on this post called it voting with their pocketbook) so using that as a gauge then a lot of people do want it, no doubt many more than the vocal few who don’t.
Truthfully, my guess is that the number of people who “want” it are a lot fewer than the number that don’t want it.
But both of groups are dwarfed in size by the dazed and apathetic masses who don’t understand what they want except for the cheapest available product they can find. It’s just easier to ignore more nuanced or complex economic and ethical principles they’d have to otherwise take a moment to think about it in the process of determining what it is they actually want.
So, all that aside, when they need a new set of towels they’ll go to WalMart to get them when it opens.
Not because they “want” to, but because it’s there.
ALEX: The problem, as I see it, with the overcrowding of businesses is that, not that the government should not regulate land use in order to maximize use while preserving the environment and pleasure of the citizens, but that the government is oftentimes corrupted by the very businesses they are to regulate. The answer is not to do away with all government, but to eliminate the undue influence of corporations in our government. While both Democrats and Republicans can lay claim to being influenced by corporations, or special lobbyists groups, I feel that the Republicans have gone way too far. Corporations are NOT people. People are people, and our elected representatives should serve us and not them. I believe that Democrats are closer to the needs of the common man while Republicans serve mostly the wealthiest Americans. This is not always true, but true enough for my vote.
We will see how well the elected officials of Harford County, especially Capt. Jim, serve our needs or those of Wal Mart. Remember money is the life blood of politics and Wal Mart is a heavy hitter indeed.
PTBL,
Agree somewhat. It was the current Supreme Court that relaxed even further the ability of businesses and PACs to influence elected (and non-elected) government folks. I think the lobbying industry is way beyond what it should be and IMHO it looks often like legalized bribery to me. I don’t think that is right nor what our founders intended.
Just remember that Democrats are often influenced by big spenders as well as Republicans. In my view it has to stop on both sides of the aisle. Let’s leave it at that.
I predict WalMart will get what they want at Plumtree and I believe that would have been true no matter whether we had a Democratic or Republican administration in Harco. And that is too bad. Not becaise I am anti-business but because I am anti-coruption of public officials and I think our present laws that allow them to be influenced the way it does should be illegal.
ALEX: Thanks.
LOL…I was being sarcastic.
Opponents Call for Boycott of Abingdon Wal-Mart as Developers Present Plans for New Bel Air Supercenter
http://www.daggerpress.com/2012/07/19/opponents-call-for-boycott-of-abingdon-wal-mart-as-developers-present-plans-for-new-bel-air-supercenter/