What do educators really think about the teaching and learning conditions in Harford County Public Schools? Gov. Martin O’Malley aimed to find out in an anonymous online survey for all Maryland educators known as the Teaching, Empowering, Leading and Learning (TELL) Maryland Survey.
The goal of the governor’s survey is to ensure that all educators in Maryland public schools have the work environment they need to help students achieve. According to tellmaryland.org, “The TELL Maryland Survey is a perceptual survey that will allow every educator to TELL Maryland if they have positive teaching and learning conditions that research has shown to be important to student achievement and teacher retention.”
Survey questions covered topics such as:
• School facilities and resources
• School leadership
• Community support and involvement
• Managing student conduct
• Instructional practices and support
The most recent TELL survey, the second of its kind since 2009, was administered in the spring of 2011 and results were published in August. The survey was made available to all school-based, certificated educators and designated education support personnel (ESP).
According to a brief written presentation made by school officials to the Harford County Board of Education in October, a total of 4,225 staff members in Harford County Public Schools responded to the survey and all schools exceeded the 50% completion rate needed for results to be reported, “thus providing school-based data for all HCPS schools.”
Survey results show that, on average, the vast majority (79%) of educators in HCPS agreed with the following statement: “Overall, my school is a good place to work and learn”, which was slightly less than the average of 82.6% for all Maryland public schools.
Garnering agreement from less than 60% of teachers surveyed, areas of relative weakness in HCPS included the consistent enforcement of school rules on student conduct, the evaluation and differentiation of professional development, teacher influence in school decision-making, teacher autonomy in instructional delivery, sufficient non-instructional time, efforts made to reduce routine paperwork, and the level of comfort teachers have in raising concerns with school administrators.
Also worth noting, 96% of HCPS teachers surveyed agreed with the statement that “effectiveness with the students I teach” influences their decisions about their professional plans. Support from school administration, collegiality among staff and teaching assignment were also strong influences, while 72% agreed that salary was a factor.
Regarding the results for Harford County as a whole, the presentation to the school board concluded: “Survey results indicate that Harford County Public Schools showed growth in positive responses from the 2009 TELL Survey to the 2011 TELL Survey in every area on all replicated questions.” The report to the school board did not, however, include the results for individual schools.
Below are the 2011 TELL Survey results by school for Harford County Public Schools.
Aberdeen High
Aberdeen Middle
Abingdon Elementary
Abingdon Elementary
Bakerfield Elementary
Bel Air Elementary
Bel Air High
Bel Air Middle
C. Milton Wright High
Center for Educational Opportunity – Alternative
Church Creek Elementary
Churchville Elementary
Darlington Elementary
Deerfield Elementary
Dublin Elementary
Edgewood Elementary
Edgewood High
Edgewood Middle
Emmorton Elementary
Fallston High
Fallston Middle
Forest Hill Elementary
Forest Lakes Elementary
Fountain Green Elementary
George Lisby Elementary at Hillsdale
Hall’s Cross Roads Elementary
Harford Technical High
Havre de Grace Elementary
Havre de Grace High
Havre de Grace Middle
Hickory Elementary
Homestead Wakefield Elementary
Jarrettsville Elementary
John Archer School
Joppatowne Elementary
Joppatowne High
Magnolia Elementary
Magnolia Middle
Meadowvale Elementary
Norrisville Elementary
North Bend Elementary
North Harford Elementary
North Harford High
North Harford Middle
Patterson Mill High
Patterson Mill Middle
Prospect Mill Elementary
Ring Factory Elementary
Riverside Elementary
Roye-Williams Elementary
Southampton Middle
William Paca/Old Post Road Elementary
William S. James Elementary
Youth’s Benefit Elementary
Where are the results for Abingdon Elementary? That is the one survey I was most anxious to see. Could it be due to most of the teachers wanting out of a bad situation? Something must be done to preserve the good teachers staying.
My child just started going there this year. Can you tell me your concerns with AES?
Interesting, my son goes there and is in his second year. As a involved parent, this is the first I’ve heard someone complain, especially in regard to the treatment of the staff. Do you have any facts to support your statement? Perhaps this is in regard to the new principle? I’m not disagreeing, but I am interested to know how you base your opinion.
Personally, I’ve enjoyed the staff and faculty I’ve met. The teachers we have seen have been great and more than involvoed with their students.
Look forward to your response.
It was a broken link, which is now fixed.
Yeah the TELL survey was another payoff to the teachers unions backing of O Malley in his first term.
Would you please explain how a survey is a payoff?
Ah, last term for O’Malley and he is really trying to put the screws to all Marylanders. He is trying everything in his power to find other ways to tax us.
Did you know that a bill was passed: “A new stormwater runoff law will require nine counties to impose an undefined fee based on the number of impervious surfaces (e.g. driveways, parking lots, areas covered with gravel or stone, buildings, etc.) that a company or individual owns.”
Did you know it has been said that he plans to run for President in 2016 with the help of Nancy Pelosi. He’s done enough damage to Maryland. Imagine what he could do to the United State of America.
O’Malley is a self absorbed jackass.
So sad to see that FGES teachers and parents are being micro managed by a dictator instead of a principal. The survey proves how bad things are. I hope the school board actually cares to do something about it. How she continually gets away with it is beyond me. She calls the kids her ” babies” and treats her teachers as babies as well.
Keep fighting we got rid of our principal at John Archer, just get everyone together and go to the school board with everything she does.
Indeed. I couldn’t BELIEVE some of the horrendous survey results for that former John Archer principal. It is hard to believe that Tomback and Lawrence took no action when they saw her survey….if they even looked at it. Very lame (or misguided) management.
Same situation at MMS. Principal really does not have the support of the staff. She does not interact with her students. Look at the replies from MMS teachers. The results are way below the others in Harford County. Does that not tell you something?
Does anyone know exactly how a principal is evaluated in HCPS? Are they regularly visited and observed by central office leadership? Is this data factored in to the overall picture of the principal’s performance?
Since we have yet to see Dr. Tomback or Ms. Canavan circulating around our school, we are assuming that our principal is evaluated on how well she can paint a pretty picture of MMS at admin meetings. Since we all know how well things can look on paper, and it’s easy to blame things that go wrong on others, it would be difficult to believe that her evaluation to lead will be accurate.
As educators, we are there for the students. The current principal at MMS is responsible for everything at MMS. Just look at the low MSA test results the past years. This school is one in trouble. Disrespectful students, low teacher morale, students who know that they will not be severly disciplined, a principal that delegates all discipline action to her subordinates (who are afraid to make a real statement and deal with repeat issues) and a principal who is on a mission of some kind (assumption on my part, I will agree). We live under the fear of retaliation if we make waves. That’s sad–for the students and the county.
Now I am not privy to the entire process and things may have changed since I left HCPS but I only saw the Superintendent come and observe the Principal once during the school year. The “observation” was planned, so the Principal knew when he was coming. This enabled the Principal to plan the entire day as he saw fit. Interesting…teachers never knew when they were to be observed but the Principal was told when the Super was coming and was able to prepare way in advance for his “observation”.
Interesting to note that there is a corelation between the schools that perform the poorest and how involved parents are in the school and a childs education. PARENTS: GET INVOLVED! See the difference you can make in your child.
MIKEMIKE – i agree that there is a correlation between parental involvement and educational achievement, but TELL does not demonstrate that. the survey only shows how involved the teachers feel the parents are. it is strictly the teachers’ perception, which is not always a mirror of reality. Look at JES scores for that question. teachers scored it below 60%, and as one of the active parents at that school, i can assure you that number is misguidedly low. very few parents at JES don’t get involved in one way or another.
This is completely baffling to me. JES is a feeder to MMS and we have almost no parental involvement. What happens to your support when your children get to MMS?
I teach at MMS.. There is no involvement. MMS is a school with multiple issues.
JES only draws from Joppa, while MMS includes both Edgewood and Joppa, including that charming townhouse complex off Hanson Rd….
Kharn with all do respect the PTA at MMS has been disfunction for a while. Until this year the PTA had few active participants and they where mostly teachers and a parent whose last child left MMS in 2005!
It is a bit discouraging to read the comment from the BOE concerning the “growth in positive responses” on the TELL survey. When you compare this response to some of the alarming data on some schools’ feelings about their leadership, it appears they are sweeping problems that need to be addressed under the rug. (Could anyone argue that good leadership is paramount to a successful school?) What is the purpose of surveying teacher for the data if it’s not going to be used to make improvements for the kids in HCPS?
In all fairness the BOE did not make those comments. Those words were part of the presentation given to the BOE by staff.
Good point. Thanks. That might make it even worse, right?
At FGES, the principal does not even work the required school day. She arrives after 8:00a.m. She claims that she wants to stay at this school until she completes her doctorate. Well, the truth is she wants to be able to drop her son off at his school each morning before coming to work. He is a third grader. It has nothing to do with her furthering her education. She has an agenda and it only benefits herself. I think she needs a challenging school to prove how good she really is (her opinion only). The previous parent comment is on the money.
It is great to have this feedback from those in the schools each day. How is this used to make needed changes to improve the education of Harford County’s children? If one has taken the time to administer this survey and report the results, I would like to know the “Plan of Assistance” that will be implemented by each school to correct the areas of weaknesses identified?
From what I can tell this data is not used at all. For example, at my school only 29% of the staff agreed to the statement, “There is an atmosphere of trust and mutual respect in this school.” That is less than half of the county average. (Not to mention that about a third of the disagree responses fell in the strongly disagree column.) Nothing has changed in my building and I would guess that if this survey was give today that the percentages of disagree would increase.
I can only imagine what the survey would say about the PMHS administration this year….I have some friends who work there and what I’ve been hearing about the two demoted principals who got transferred there is pathetic. Collins wasn’t all that popular with a lot of the staff, but at least he got things done and cared about doing his job even if his inter-personal skills were somewhat lacking at times.
I still find it unbelievable that with all the accountability problems at that school that Tomback decided it would be a good idea to put two demoted head principals in there while leaving Theibault (that’s probably spelled wrong and I apologize for it) in charge.
as long as wayne keeps kissing lawrence’s and tomback’s you know what, and as long as he keeps providing jobs to staff that would have a hard time getting placement at another school…. he’ll get to stay. Because his test scores are high. but a bag of rocks could foster high test scores with the student population at Patterson Mill. We’ve worked very closely for 15 years with 4 different principals, including wayne. I give the other three principals A or A+. Wayne gets a D minus. Its pathetic and a real shame for so many students and families, who will never get another chance to experience middle and high school in a healthy, honest, competent environment.
I agree, Mr. Collins is one of the best administrators in HCPS. He truly cares about the well being of his students, but doesn’t take any nonsense from them, which is probably why they sent him to EHS. It is a shame that this man isn’t a Principal!
This is a sad situation. As teachers we put a smile on our face for students and parents because that is who most of us are by nature. We always suck it up because we want to do what’s best for kids. However, we are miserable. We work in a county that does not value teachers. Teachers are not supported by administration, the BOE or the County Executive. We have not had a raise, not received the bonus that was promised and our job is becoming more stressful by the second because of evaluations and plans of assistance that are not warranted in most cases. To all you parents out there who see a smile when you enter a building, please know that most of us are suffering in silence an looking for a way out. We have no means to express our concerns except through the Dagger. What is wrong in Harford County?
Harford County is being shown for the overgrown backwoods suburb of Baltimore that it really is. Time to grow up and face the new reality of the situation in the county. You are no longer an isolated “rural playground” of the suburban yuppie mindset. Take a look at some of the better run counties and adjust accordingly or suffer disproportionally.
You are our hero!
What is wrong? Plenty.
If you are a teacher, and you are not happy with the way things are run in this county, then leave, there is no gun to your head forcing you to stay. I’m sure many will, and good teachers will come along and replace you. Everyone is replaceable, so for those that are just griping and moaning on the lack of support find another school system that is supposedly better and move on down the road. The sun will rise tomorrow. For those teachers that do stay, we will support you and do everything we can to make you feel appreciated, but the bottom line is that you are employed when many in the county cannot find good work or any at all.
I think many teachers are complaining because what they see that what is broken is easily fixed if someone would pay attention and act. Teachers want HCPS to be great and see the potential — so many great teachers and kids. Also, maybe teachers feel that this is the only safe forum to share complains and they are hoping that if they do, it will lead to positive change.
I am staying. How will you support me?
The analogy I used was that I will continue to support my child’s teachers by being a supportive parent, and staying involved in the education process. It is a two way street, and being an involved, supportive parent is a lot of work. I know that in order for my child to succeed they need to be pushed, and I expect a good teacher to do that, and that in the long run it will help them. I am not of the mindset that it is all on the teacher, as a parent my job is to assist my kids in the overall process.
We need you to speak out for education in this county. The Crag administrations capricious and serial underfunding of schools is at the root of all the problems. Tell the county council to fund the school budget.
As of Feb. 2012, the unemployment in Harford County was 7.4% that is much lower than the national average and is far from “the bottom line is that you are employed when many in the county cannot find good work or any at all”. It seems to me that this is the case of The Ants and The Grasshoppers.
While the rate may be lower than the national average, it is still way too high, but that’s a topic for another day. I can speak from my own experience, I am underemployed, and until the unemployment rate goes down to pre Recession levels, I will not be making what I’m worth. I will continue to muddle through and support my family, and my childs teachers, since I know how important a good education is. Have a great day.
Bill,
Many people are out of work and the unemployment rates may stay high until new industries rise and people re-educate themselves to new careers. I am sorry for your struggle. There are many good paying jobs listed in the Aegis regularly. I hope you find something. What is your line of work?
Ryan, I am in general sales, was a victim of corporate downsizing in 2008, and love Harford County for what it offers my family. I want to stay here, and am struggling mightily, but will do whatever it takes to take care of my family. Just know that I have the utmost respect for teachers and what they do, I am just plain frustrated with my situation but will not give up. Keep up the good fight and know a lot of citizens appreciate what you do for our kids everyday.
Ever consider going back to school for teaching. I believe there are opportunities out there for career changers. Check the Aegis. There are many jobs advertised. Also, look into purchasing, etc. If there is something I can do to help let me know.
Ryan Burbey:
With how you badmouth everything related to education in Harford County except the HCEA, I’m surprised you’d advocate someone becoming a teacher knowing they want to stay in this area.
I am not happy with the system but I recognize that a huge factor is the ridiculous underfunding. I also do not bad mouth HCPS. I have highlighted issues which demand correction.
Honestly, if I had it to do over I would not choose teaching as a career and I would advise anyone considering education as a profession to seriously reconsider. There are just too many things beyond your control that have the potential to stagnate or end your career. When you consider the investment in obtaining a college degree, advanced degree, and uncompensated time, there are much more lucrative career choices to be made. Teachers have become the scapegoats for societies ills. Everyone is looking to blame someone else for their failures, students, parents, politicians, school administrators, and teachers are easy targets.
It is tough right now but we need committed people to stay and to enter our profession. Whether John Q public or David Craig realizes it, teachers and education are the foundation of our society.
@Bill
I have to agree with you 100%. If teachers don’t like how HCPS is run, they should just quit. That’s how it should be for everyone! If you don’t like something, don’t try to make it better, don’t stand up for yourself, just leave!
I mean, our country was built on people not standing up for themselves and addressing perceived inequities! Our rights and freedoms all just seemed to happen without people having to speak out, and by getting people who didn’t like the way things were to keep their mouths shut and not make too waves.
As Patrick Henry said “Give me liberty…or I’ll just move to somewhere that will”.
Lighten up Francis.
Where it the support? This is why teachers are complaining. These are the very condescending comments and childish attacks that teachers feel they are subject to when they speak out. This is why we will remain the overgrown backwoods suburb of Baltimore.
Bill you gave the best possible response to your own statement. Many are out of work and that’s not just in Harford County. I would venture to guess that there are many teachers who would move to another county or even state if the job market looked a little better. Having a job you don’t like is better than having no job at all.
The tell survey is a joke. First everyone complains about their admin. I don,t know about mms or pmhs, but all of the buildings I have been in the ast. Princ. Handles referals. The principal can,t take credit for good test scores and also can,t be blamed for bad. You want to know the climate of a building look at transfer requests.
The tell survey was put out to make teachers think they have a say. Only about half respond, the ones that do complain all day no matter what.
The transfer requests are a joke. I know of so many people who LIE (and don’t get questioned at all) and use a relative’s address to get their kids into PMHS, while us honest parents, who can’t afford private school, send our children to the schools that they are suppose to go to. I can tell you that my voice and face will be heard and seen at MMS! I had one daughter go through without any problems and the second one will be there next year.
Ms. Holsapple, I applaud you! I know very well who you are. Thank you for your involvement.
As for transfers (students) there are many, many who wrangle “boundry exceptions” and attend MMS. There are many who use false addresses (relatives, froends etc) who really should not be at MMS. But the principal does not have the backbone to meet this issue head on.
As for teacher’s request for transfer–there are a large number every year and, very interestingly, most are denied or blocked along the way. No one wants to teach at MMS due to the students behavior and/or the principal there. It’s sad.
Ms. Holsapple,
We need to have your voice at the County Council and Board of Ed. There should be no significant differences in the learning environments in various schools throughout the county. Please help us fight for equal education for all Harford Counyt’s children.
Mr. Burbey, what can I do to help?
I know in Baltimore County schools, if you claim you live at an address the school administration can visit that address to ascertain if you really live there, but if you write “homeless” instead of a fixed address your children can go to any school in the county without question.
The HCPS administration needs to have some guts, require parents/guardians show true proof they and their kid live at the claimed address. Cellphone, cable, electricity, water, whatever, no one in this society is without some monthly bill they receive in the mail or some state-issued photo identification (which Maryland law requires have a current address). Knock on doors during the summer, follow the school bus and see who jumps in a car every day for a ride to Edgewood, etc.
It is actually a state law that homeless children can continue going to school where they were at without interuption even if they get a room at a motel in another school zone.
I disagree. Take the results for Bel Air Middle. 100% of the staff responded that they felt that there was trust between the staff and the admin. That’s awesome. Compare that with the other school you mentioned. There is a big disparity if you look closely. In addition, there was an 80% response rate county wide. That’s pretty good. You can also check the actual school response rate. This survey is not a joke. It is the only place that teachers are actually asked their opinions about the leadership — and this came from the state. Good point about teacher transfer requests. That seems to be information that is never shared with the public.
Just to clarify, this was a response to Craziness. I put it in the wrong spot.
I am a little over the “private sector.” First of all, many companies do put people on probation before firing them which is like the plan of assistance.
Secondly, if the private sector is so horrible and awful, why aren’t you a teacher?
Also, about a month ago, there was a report placing Harford County 3rd in the NATION for weekly wage growth. It also placed the county in the top 25 in the NATION for average weekly salary. Obviously, as a whole, the county is not doing that poorly. I fully understand (remember…teachers have friends and family too) that people are being laid off. I am not discounting those people’s stories, but too many people on here paint it as if everyone in Harford County has lost their job.
Additionally, (and I know this is FAR from true for the county as whole), many of my students went to the beach, Florida, the Carribean, or on cruises for Spring Break. Are these all the people who are so hurt for money? It is a little confusing for people to act like everyone is hurting when I see a student parking lot with new BMW’s, Hummers, and Lexus’s in it.
Lastly, I teach (and based on what I have been told by parents, students, fellow teachers, supervisors, and principals, I am really good at it) because I actually love working with kids and seeing them grow. I spend hours every week outside of school grading work and leaving detailed comments and corrections to be sure students know how to improve next time. There is not another job I would want to have. After over a decade of teaching, I can still say I love my job and what I do. Early in my career, I often didn’t even think about my paycheck until it was in my box at school. Teaching what what I love to do–it is not just a paycheck. However, after having a child of my own, I did have to look at that paycheck and wonder if I was sacrificing my own child’s well-being for those of others? Is it fair to expect me to educate future engineers, doctors, etc., while denying my own child the right to those things by freezing my salary for 4 year? Being a 2 teacher household, it is a loss of $10,000 a year in our overall salary. We’re not even sure we can afford to have another child, but if we had that money it would not even be an issue.
#3 in the nation for weekly wage growth? A Google search turns up that study included the range of second quarter 2010-2011. Do you think that might have something to do with all of the new BRAC employees at APG and associated contractors, the majority of whom are making over $75k? I bet if you look at the counties around Fort Monmouth, their weekly wage decrease was significant for that same window.
You’re only thinking of the notable displays of wealth, look for the kids in the parking lot driving beaters, begging rides from friends or riding the bus. Or ask who stayed home and played PS3/XBox during spring break because their parents couldn’t afford to take them anywhere.
Economic turbulence goes both ways, its very easy to lose money and/or jobs, but those well positioned can make even more money. Somebody has to buy those gigantic houses on 543.
Well it’s not teachers buying them!
@kharn – Competition is healthy and to the winner goes the spoils. It is how our economic system works. If you are not happy that Harford County has done well when others have not, then maybe you should move to another country with a different system. However, when the spoils are divided everyone who is part of the crew gets a percentage even if it is only a small one. It is a practice that keeps productivity going and harmony among the ranks. Money isn’t created (unless you are the Federal Goverment), it is moved around from the economic losers to the winners. I love our economic system and firmly believe that investing in education of our youth is one of the best ways to secure the future of free market entrepreneurship. However, the Board of Education (HCPS) needs to be more accountable to their shareholders (taxpayers).
Don’t get me wrong, I totally agree with a capitalist system, I’m profiting in multiple ways off of both the good and the bad economic changes in Harford. I know several teachers, in person they laugh about the rich kids at school and their ridiculous displays of wealth, but everyone on Dagger complains about them saying its not fair. Teaching has never been for those looking to make money, its for those that love helping children, but apparently on the internet it is the reverse.
I agree that the Board should be accountable, and my belief is that county taxes should not rise, we’re already near the state-allowed maximum. If that means changes need to be made in order to keep and attract better teachers, even ones the HCEA will cry about and claim are unfair such as pay-for-performance or a bonus pool, so be it. For example, set a pool at 5% of all teacher salaries at the school and use an objective system (and not one based entirely on test scores as teachers at EHS, AHS, etc can’t help if kids want to work corners instead of learn geometry) to award the best teachers 10%, decent teachers 5% and retired-in-place 0%. Reward things like coming up with new lesson plans for each year instead of recycling the same ones, quickly returning graded papers, grades entered into the system before the deadline, prepared for parent conferences, IEPs up to date and accurate, submitting quality ideas to improve the school or student life, etc.
I would like to add a few things. There have been some good posts, and some bad info posted as well.
First when students register for school the parents must provide proof of residence. The pupil personnel worker will check anyone that doesn’t seem legit. If you think the school system has time to check every kid you are not as smart as you seem. Will someone cheat, lie, or find a loophole sure, but it isn’t as bad as some are making it. Heck they now have coaches collecting bge bills as well.
Second when a teacher applies for a transfer the principal at their current school cannot block a transfer. At the central office Bill Lawrence can block a move, but that doesn’t happen very often either. There have been years I applied for transfers and didn’t even get interviews, that typically means no openings.
Lastly most who complain teach at the rt. 40 schools. Those are without a doubt the toughest schools to work at. I hate to say it but you typically have less parental support, tougher kids which means more discipline issues, which leads to more unhappy teachers. Whether you know it or not administrators have to follow a protocol when dealing with discipline issues, they can’t just throw every kid out. Also as was posted earlier, principals don’t typically deal with referrals.
I won’t lie I used to complain a lot about the admins in the buildings I had work in, until I had to opportunity to work as a fill in admin. It changed my view completely. They are not admins, but firefighters, because that is all they do. Kids, parents, teachers, and the list goes on of those complaining about something. I recommend you walk a little in their shoes before you spout off. After a few days I was more than ready to go back to my little classroom and just deal with the kids I had to teach.
Some of you know very little about how the school system works. First when students register at a school, they must provide documentation (bge bill) of residence. Harford County has a kind of transient group where students will switch schools several times a year. If a red flag is thrown up the pupil personnel worker actually goes to home to check it out. Can they check every student? No, I hate to say it you have to rely on some honesty. Is it the principal’s job to verify residence? No.
Second a teacher applying for a transfer cannot be blocked by their current principal. It all goes through central office. Now central office can block them. I have been teaching for a long time, and have taught in several locations, and there have been years I applied for transfer and got no interviews, or got the letter saying no openings.
Lastly most of the complaints on the tell survey come from the rt. 40 schools because as we all know they seem to have the most issues. Personally I think it would be good if the county made teachers switch schools every 10 years or so. If someone is a great teacher at bel air middle, let them go to edgewood middle and vice versa.
I will add this as well. I used to complain about the admins in my building a lot. Then I had to opportunity to be a temporary admin when one went out for a long-term absence. There is a whole lot more to the job than teachers think. I would get referrals (I couldn’t actually do anything because I wasn’t an offical ap), and I would think throw them out. I found out their are strict protocol, and laws especially for the kids on IEP’s that prevent the just throwing them out.
Let us be honest there are some principals who are so chummy with HR that it seems like thye can get what they want and it is very odd that it is almost impossible to get transferrred off of route 40.
I have got a transfer from a 40 school, and so did one of my friends. I was not chummy with the admin at that building. A lot is based off of the interview, and who you know. I think all will admit is you know the person interviewing you it only helps.
It is no coincidence that teachers find it hard to get transfers away from Rt. 40 schools. It is the same in every school system that has schools with tough (poverty, lack of parental support, disruptive students, higher percentages of students with IEP’s, lower test scores, crime) student populations. It is also no coincidence that these lower performing schools generally have larger numbers of new teachers. The public stigma associated with these school populations and their surrounding communities also rubs off on teachers in those buildings. Unfortunately the stigma associated with the teachers does not come from the community or students they serve but from within the school system. So it is difficult to get transfers to other schools unless you are extremely exceptional, teach a specialty subject or happen to know someone. The truth is that 50% of new teachers leave the profession within the first five years and near 70% in the first ten. Of the 50% a significant number will have their first assignment be to one of these tough schools. These bright people who wanted to teach far too often find themselves dealing with students with classroom behavior/discipline problems and a multitude of other issues which are beyond a teachers control. It is the grind of teaching in these types of environments that drive new teachers out of the profession. It is easy to become very disheartened when far too much of your time is spent on matters other than teaching. Many teachers in these situations feel like they are raising other peoples children because the parents will not do their part. Add to this frustration the inability to get away from this environment through transfer and newer teachers are faced with making difficult decisions – either quit teaching altogether of try to go to a different school system with the chance of being assigned to a better school. As unfair as it may seem a new teacher’s success and longevity in a particular school system or staying in the profession has a great deal to do with where they are initially assigned.
let me first clarify that i do in fact value teachers’ input on their work environments. however, it is human nature to believe that one is doing well in whatever their endeavor may be, and that failure to excel or meet certain expectations is the fault of someone/something else. That being said, I truly believe that the majority of teachers in HarCo are good at what they do and that they care about the kids.
Ryan asked another reader what he, as a parent, would do to support him (Ryan, the teacher). I would offer that until Ryan removes his head from the Union’s backside, he is beyond help. Ryan is of the belief that throwing money at a ‘problem’ is the only way to fix it. Harford County has met MoE requirements every year since the legislation passed. Mr. Burbey seems to believe that CE Craig is waging some sort of war on teachers, and that simply is not true. Keep in mind that the CE cannot act unilaterally. There is a County Council involved as well. I advise Ryan to speak with his councilman.
Teacher stated: However, after having a child of my own, I did have to look at that paycheck and wonder if I was sacrificing my own child’s well-being for those of others? Is it fair to expect me to educate future engineers, doctors, etc., while denying my own child the right to those things by freezing my salary for 4 year? Being a 2 teacher household, it is a loss of $10,000 a year in our overall salary.
I take issue with 2 points here. One, you imply that your child is being denied the right to those things (i assume a quality public education). Who is denying it to your child? Is your child for some reason not eligible to attend HCPS? Or is your lack of a step increase keeping your child from enrolling in a private school? Are you saying private schools offer a better education? Second, you say you’ve lost $10,000 in annual salary. really? since when is not getting a raise considered a loss? When I managed a restaurant, I expected a 1-3% increase every quarter, but I didn’t view it as lost salary if my boss decided I hadn’t earned it.
Many people in the private sector have seen their wage/salary stagnate or even actually decrease. Times are still tough. The economy still sucks. Just because there’s a little bit of extra money in the county coffers doesn’t mean it needs to be spent. CE Craig is aware of the turmoil in state and federal spending (where a lot of county funding comes from), and also of the not-yet-recovered housing market (where the rest of the county funding comes from). would you rather get a raise now and face potential layoffs in 3 years, or suck it up for a little while and know that your job is secure?
It seems that a lot of teachers, and county/state employees in general have lost sight of where their paychecks come from. Here’s a hint: Taxes. using simple math, one can deduce that if county income (taxes) doesn’t increase, neither can your salary.
just some observations for y’all to ponder for a little while.
you’re welcome.
Jeffery Beck
Oh believe me, I know that the council is involved to. I have contacted Mr. Slutzky. As to Mr. Craig’s war on teachers, I don’t think he is at war with teachers. He is just myopic and continues to underfund schools even in the face of evidence that he must increase funding to just maintain status quo. Mr. Craig has continuously talked about how state aid has been cut. What he does not discuss is the fact that his underfunding is causing cuts to state aid. As far as where my head lies, it is with my students, my children and my union. We are all getting the shaft. Look at the budget. Why have capital expenditures on schools dropped to 10% of the county capital budget? Why despite opening multiple new schools and adding multiple programs has county funding remained static? Why is it that last years budget was significantly lower yet the schools are not getting a proportionate share of the increase? Why are we continuing to borrow money to build new projects if we can’t afford to fix our schools?
The CE has put tens of millions of dollars in new school construction in his Capital Budget over the next few years. My question is if things are so bad that the county can’t fund projects now how is it possible to anticipate funding availability for new schools in just a couple of years?
Why would we build any new schools until the ones we have are fixed? Why should the kids in Aberdeen, Edgewood or Joppatowne go to a deteriorating middle school so more kids in affluent neighborhoods can go to a shinny new school? Why should the kids at WM. Paca have to deal with mold?
TO be fair the physical plant at MMS is not horrible the problem is that basicc preventative maitenence hardly ever gets done. The same issues in my room have not been addressed over the last 10 years. The work orders are put in EVERY year by the building custodian and somehow facilities NEVER gets to them.
Maybe funding has remained static because school enrollment has dropped over the last five years.
Mr. Burbey – you continue to spew the lie that Mr. Craig is underfunding schools when the data clearly shows that Harford County has consistently met MoE requirements. Why is that? Meanwhile, at the state level, per-pupil funding has just dropped by about $100 per student because the Assembly couldn’t come to a consensus on, well, anything.
I also do not doubt that as a teacher and as father you give above and beyond what anyone would ever ask or expect from anyone. My concern lies with your blind devotion to a union who’s job, by its very nature, is to screw the taxpayers. Whether or not your union truly has the interests of its members at heart is a discussion for another day. But the fact remains that everytime your union leaders go to the negotiating table, their mission is to suck as much money out of the taxpayers’ pockets as humanly possible.
I think there are 2 major issues in the public school system, in HarCo and elsewhere. #1 is parental involvement (or lack thereof). Sadly, that cannot be mandated or legislated, only encouraged by teachers and the community. (For the record, I know that teachers are constantly encouraging parental involvement, and I thank you all for that.)
#2 is in the basic structure of the system. Simple changes can be made that would open up vast improvement potential. For starters, implement a pay for performance salary structure that rewards classroom innovators that get results. (that one won’t happen if the unions have anything to say about it) Also, school choice, and with it, vouchers for lower-income families. multiple studies have shown this to be an effective way to improve quality in jurisdictions that have taken the first steps. Give school-level administration (principles) a little more authority over their teachers. similarly, give teachers more authority in their classrooms. too many parents have tried to hand off their job as a parent to the teachers, but get mad at the teachers when they try to correct poor behavior. Teachers seem to have their hands tied in their own classrooms, and that should not be.
Oh, and one more thing: de-centralize education. there is absolutely no need for a federal board of education, and the state level is 10 times bigger than it ought to be.
To be clear, I appreciate everything that teachers do. many of you are vastly underpaid, IMO, and certainly under-appreciated. Thank you for tolerating all that you do!
Jeff
Jeff,
I will address you comments one by one.
While Craig has funded the minimum required by law, it is not even possible to argue that schools are underfunded. Mr. Craig’ current proposal is 1 million more then MOE. However, MOE is just that maintaining current efforts. When the effort is sub-par, it just says that it will continue to be poor. Harford COunty is among the wealthiest counties in the state yet it is 16th in school funding. Shouldn’t school funding be proportionate to relative wealth? Harford County is at risk for losing state subsides due to its continued pattern of underfunding, which to be fair, started before King Craig was elected but has become dramatically worse since.
I do not have “blind devotion” to my union. I can also assure that unions are not trying to “screw the taxpayers” or “suck as much money out of the taxpayers’ pockets as humanly possible”. In fact, most of the bargaining is in regards to working conditions.
I would agree that “parental involvement (or lack thereof)” is a problem. However, when parents are working 2 or 3 jobs to make rent or when they must work second or third shifts, it becomes difficult. Sadly, that cannot be mandated or legislated, only encouraged by teachers and the community.
There are structural problems in the educational system but implementing “a pay for performance salary structure that rewards classroom innovators that get results” is not the answer. It really is not possible to quantify performance in teaching. Those that work hardest would often be penalized due to factors completely beyond their control. You are correct in your assessment, “that one won’t happen if the unions have anything to say about it” but not just it would be bad for teachers. It also would be bad for kids, schools and our entire system of public education. It would result in massive personel and budgetary shortages in at risk communities.
Likewise, “school choice, and with it, vouchers for lower-income families” is not a good solution. Why not make all schools quality schools with quality programing and commensurate resources?. I defy you to show me “multiple studies have shown this to be an effective way to improve quality in jurisdictions that have taken the first steps”. For everyone you can produce, I can produce three that show the problems which these programs create. (See the above response).
School-level administration (principles) already have ultimate authority over their teachers.
No teacher worth their salt has “their hands tied in their own classrooms”.
De-centralizing education would result in even more problems then exist now. Simply harken back to segregation. Similarly, we must have national standards to move forward as a 21st century nation.
There is not national board of education.
Yes, we are under-paid.
Thank you for your appreciation
Ryan
@Ryan Burbey
You are as misguided as you are foolish. You believe federal bureaucrats and unions know better than local folks…are you insane?
I beg you to quit teaching and find something you are more suited to do. Your ideas and viewpoints are a danger to students, parents and taxpayers.
Patrick,
I think sometimes local folk are better decision makers and sometime not. Look at our County executive. He thinks that 10% of the capital budget is a reasonable amount to dedicate to schools and that underfunding schools to the point of deterioration is acceptable. It is essential that we have a nationalized approach to education. If we do not, we will fall further behind other nations. An interesting side point is that no state need adhere to national education policy. All any state must do is forfeit all federal education money. I also would very much appreciate if you left my family and job out of the discussion. My political views and advocacy are my right and have no bearing on the execution of my job. For you to imply this is reprehensible. In short, you are lout.
Ryan –
Over the last ten budget years, Harford County ranks 4th in local funding % versus required MoE levels. http://www.mceanea.org/pdf/MOETrendDataFY03-12.pdf The increase has dropped off over the last few years, but that is true of every county due to the recession. However, Harford ranks 13th in school funding from the state. clearly, that is a sign that O’Malley is ‘punishing’ us for not having the right go-along-to-get-along attitude in Annapolis.
As far as your union is concerned, you see it as advocating for you; whereas I see all public unions as bargaining for my tax money. I believe public unions at any level are an affront to taxpayers, as that is who funds them. We will never see eye-to-eye here, so I will agree to disagree. Though I’m not really sure what “work conditions” teachers would need so seriously addressed.
No sooner did you finish the sentence about Harford County being one of the wealthiest in the state, you contend that parental involvement is low because so many parents are working 2 or 3 jobs just to pay the rent. Sorry, you can’t have it both ways.
School choice is another topic on which we’ll likely never agree, so I’ll skip that one. Plus, i’m tired.
“School-level administration (principles) already have ultimate authority over their teachers.” So, a principle can fire a teacher? Or recommend discipline? Or transfer of a teacher? I highly doubt that.
Sorry, I meant Department of Education at the Federal level, not board of ed. my bad.
Sure, let’s give the Federal Gov’t control of everything, because everything they touch turns to gold. you know, like Amtrak, USPS, Medicare/Aid, SS, etc., I’m sorry, but that is not what the founders intended.
On a complete aside, I would like to acknowledge how many comments are on this thread. This is a true, honest, open, and CIVIL discussion. ryan and I rarely ever agree on anything on the Dagger, yet we (and everyone else on here) have engaged in a civil discussion. If we could expand and grow this discussion to the whole county, I bet we’d start to see some of the changes that we all agree on.
Jeff
Jeff-
Let me address your two comments.
First, I was not referring to public school at all, My child will go to HCPS, and I am very happy with the schools they will attend. What I meant is for the extras, such as trips, etc. that many of the students I personally teach have access too.
As far as “lost” salary, I am not talking about raises at all. Frankly, I do not think we should get RAISES right now and probably not for the next few years either. What I am upset about is the SALARY STEPS that are part of the contract. I just want my steps. I don’t need a COLA or a raise. I’m not greedy; I just want to be able to provide for my family without having to leave a job that I am really good at (based on OTHER people, including kids and parents) and I actually enjoy.
I agree that teachers do not get into it to make a ton of money, but I think, if education is as valuable as everyone says it is, then we have to value the people who actually deliver it. Finland and South Korea have two of the best educational systems worldwide. Each stresses different things (rote learning vs. creativity for example) but the common denominator is that in BOTH, teaching is a highly respected and honored professional. In fact, in Finland it is harder to get into a school of education than into medical school because of the demand.
Translate that to America. If everyone is so happy with the capitalist system, then if you want great teachers you are going to have to pay them accordingly. Isn’t that how capitalism works–if you want more of people then you have to pay them more? People on this board will abhor a teacher who wants to make money, but then praise the capitalist system that says the most successful make the most money. It is totally hypocritical. I am all for making it harder for teachers to enter teaching; I definitely see some people who are not all that intelligent standing in front of a classroom–kind of scary. I think people who become teachers should be at the top of their class. However, you will never be able to do that unless they know they can make a secure living.
@Teacher
The answer for parents, students and taxpayers is competition with school choice which the unions and privileged teachers are against.
School choice is a false choice. it leads to a two tiered education system and socio-economic segregation. Those that have the means to transport their children move them those that do not watch their school be sapped of funding and resources.
Mr Burbey,
So? If a parent wants better for their kid they’ll go to the end of the earth to get it. Why should a family that can afford to transport their kid to Fallston or Bel Air (and might even have a job in the area, can afford before/after care or the kid can drive themself) be restricted to Edgewood solely because they bought a house there before the Section 8 crowd showed up and now can’t afford to move?
How much does it really cost to drive your kid 10 miles 180 days a year? Assuming two round trips a day, and $0.52/mi (IRS standard rate for car useage, including gas, maintenance, insurance, etc), that comes out to $3744/yr. Is that too much to make sure your kid gets a good education?
If a school loses too many students due to parents having a poor perception of it and transferring their kids, crying about loss of funding isn’t the solution. The right thing to do would be look at more innovation ideas, such as disbersing the entire staff to the rest of the school system, renovating the school and transferring teachers from other schools to kick off the new program with fresh blood. You might even be able to get a reality TV show out of it. High School Impossible? School Rescue?
You need to look at education as a business, not a taxpayer-fueled gravy train, and provide the best education for the dollar. HCPS practically has a monopoly on education (McDonalds vs Five Guys is a good comparison), but that does not mean it is acceptable to allow individual locations’ performance to continue to disappoint solely because of institutional momentum.
If HCPS is going to use magnet programs and parent-provided transportation to hide performance issues at AHS/EHS, any parent should be allowed to transport their children to any school they wish.
@Ryan Burbey
You know that the current public/union dominated education delivery system can’t compete when parents have school choice.
You sir are a disingenuous enabler of a failed public school model and you are hellbent on continuing to subjugate the parents, students and taxpayers. For you maintaining the status quo of poor government-run public school system results at ever increasing costs is your mission in life.
Shame on you! I reject you, Ryan Burbey and your ideology. I pray for your failure and defeat in all that you do to thwart the interests of students, parents and taxpayers.
Patrick the cost of the system has actually been stagnent the last few years!!!!!! That said Public Schools are mandated by the MD Constitution! The problem with school choice as I see it is how do you deal with the problem of everyone flocking to the same schools when they have no space?
Patrick- don’t you think that ALL of the children in HCPS deserve a quality education? What about those who don’t get their choice?
Any increase in salary or pay rate is by definition a “raise”. There are different types of raises (COLA, step, grade, merit,etc.). Therefore, a step increase is a raise.
Yes and it was also contracted as well but it seems following one of those is somehow unamerican now!
Jtowne Jeff
I happen to agree with much of what you say, but as a teacher wanted to address a few of the comments. I teach in Harford County and know nothing about the private schools around here, but when my daughter is of school age I will likely be looking at that as an option because I’m not convinced that everyone gets a quality education in our system. I can do my part to change that in my room, but my hands are tied on many instances and I can’t do what I would like, only what the county allows. Getting a step is a bit different from getting a raise, at least from my point of view, and here’s why. When you sign a contract with Harford County they show you a salary schedule that identifies what you will make over the course of your teaching career. At least for me when I signed on I viewed this as my salary schedule. I took into account that I would make this much at year 1 and this much at year 2 and so on. That all gets wrapped up as part of your pay, not an expectation of what you could make. This isn’t like the private sector where you can get a raise (when times are good) for doing a good job. There is not chance to get a raise as a teacher, you have the security of knowing that as you continue to teach your base pay will be adjusted. I know that some will still call this a raise, and I understand why they would call it that with a quick glance. When that schedule was provided for me as I made my decision to move from a different state to MD to teach I didn’t view that as a rate of potential raises, but as the whole basis for my income until reitrement.
Well said, absolutely!
Enrollment has not dropped significantly over the past four years
2007 = 39,172
2008 = 38,611
2009 = 38,637
2010 = 38,394
2011 = 38,224
That is a decline of 948 kids. Distribute between over 50 schools that is less than twenty kids per school. That is about a 2% decline system wide. Considering the increase in the number of schools and programing, that is a meaningless decline. That is not accounting for inflation and increased mandates which cost increasing $$$. The declining enrollment argument is a steaming pile of crap that the Craig administration uses to justify their elitist and exclusionary agenda.
Declining enrollment is not a ‘steaming pile of crap’. Fewer students means the need for fewer teachers, books, classroom supplies, etc. Do we have fewer employees than when the enrollment was pushing 40,000?
A 2% decline is significant. 948 students is whole school, yet seats have been added. Start coming up with ideas to make the system more efficient rather than just demanding an increase every year. You may have a more receptive crowd to increases if you also address the inefficiencies in the system.
Those figures sure don’t look like what the BOE was throwing at the County last year in their drive to “redistrict.” Another enormous waste of cash and energy!
Go back one more year and see in 2006 enrollment was 39671. Now the drop is 1447 or 3.6%.
Most teachers did not enter the field because they thought there would be a millionaire’s salary. However, most of us did think that we would be able to expect normal cost of living raises and salary increases that were specified in the contract we signed. One thing about Harford County that stands out above many places is how vocal and how public the population likes to bash it’s teachers. I remember about 10 or so years ago, a politician that I can’t currently recall, stating in the Aegis that Harford County “gets more bang for it’s buck from teachers than most systems.” That sentiment still rings true today although it’s stated in more different ways-Harford county taxpayers love to be negative about their teachers. Everything that’s wrong is the teacher’s fault and rarely their child’s. It’s amazing the number of emails I get that blast me about failing their child that didn’t complete all the assignments because “they tried”. Really? So it’s okay if a surgeon “tries” to do a heart transplant but stops halfway through because it’s just “too hard”? I recently had a student that brought in a project obviously done by a parent and when I casually said “Your mom did a nice job” he said “yeah” and didn’t even look embarrassed or apologetic. Could I have made a big deal about cheating? Yes. But obviously the lesson the parent is teaching is that it’s okay to get what you need anyway you can-who am I to interfere with that lesson? Especially since the burden of proof will fall on me.
I have a reputation at my school for being “mean”-I’ve had students tell others to stay away from my class because you have to work the entire period and because I don’t excuse grades or curve them or give a student more points than they actually earned. To be honest, in my decades of teaching I have never had so many students appear to be so apathetic about doing their work. I blame a lot of it on the four period day. During our many in-service meetings we’re told that most of the learning occurs in the first 20 minutes and the last 20 minutes…so what did Harford County do? Put an additional 50 minutes in between! My students work so slowly I want to scream…they feel like they have all the time in the world during class and they definitely take their time doing work. The theory was that you would accomplish 2 days worth of learning in one longer period. But it turns out it’s really difficult to push the kids to do that when they lose their focus halfway through the 90 minutes.
Lastly, back on the subject of criticizing education…borrowing from a friend of mine….”I would never go to the dentist and tell them how to drill my tooth, or go to the pilot and tell him how to fly the plane, or tell a firefighter the best way to approach putting out a fire. Yet EVERYONE went to school and typically at some point had an experience that shaped their overall opinion of school, so EVERYONE thinks they now know how to fix our schools based on what they experienced…and most have absolutely no problem voicing those opinions loud and clear in the paper, online and my favorite of all…sitting in a parent conference about a child that’s not doing well and the parent tells me how I should teach because I’m doing it wrong…”
I’m glad to see someone else out there holds students accountable. I got so sick of parents complaining that their child got a 79 or 89 on an assignment or assessment and wanted me to bump it to the higher grade. My response was always the same, the student will just have to do better work or study more the next time. Parents didn’t like it and sometimes would go over my head to the administration to try to get the grade changed. Early on the administration would come to me but would get the same answer. It got me in the doghouse but they stopped coming to me because I held my ground.
There a phrase that you do not judge another until you walk a mile in their shoes. I love to read the assumptions of those who have never been on the inside of the education system. They make me laugh.
Have you ever seen the commercial on television, where the doctor comes in to play the violin for the orchestra, and it makes the supposition that you wouldn’t want your doctor doing your job, so why are you trying to do theirs? This is my thought on education. I wouldn’t dream of being an engineer, an architect, an artist, or a bank manager, so why would anyone who isn’t a teacher dream they understood the inner workings of education.
I taught for a year and a half at a wealthy private school in TX, where my challenge was dealing with children whose parents didn’t speak English, and I never learned Spanish. Hospitality goes a long way in that society so forming a parent/teacher relationship wasn’t a problem, but parents could not often help their child with homework. Then of course there were the politics of private school which I ran head on into my second year.
After coming home I spent three years in a Baltimore City Public School. I met some wonderful people who poured their hearts and minds into a broken system. Some stayed, some didn’t, it depended how much you were capable of withstanding.
I personally have an intense distaste for educational politics. Why? Because no one walked a mile in my shoes. No one spent money to make sure their students ate in the morning, no one watched them come to school soaked because they walked, no one paid $100 for there students to go on a field trip because someone stole the money and there was no getting it back. No one spent hours in meetings trying to get services for children who weren’t “behind enough,” no on heard the stories or read the records, to know just what they were up against. No one would have protected anyone of them with their life, and no one hoped that their life lasted beyond 18.
Maybe here some of the concerns are different but as a teacher you see them, you watch, and you do your best hoping at the end of the day, just a little bit of what you said got through. You watch some slip, you see children’s pain and frustration and your work week is always longer than 40 hours. Teachers accept that.
What I chose not to accept was its toll on my health. I give 115%, absolutely everything in me, to fight for a system that is concerned with image and not actuality. Our schools had best look good on paper, our teachers had best be churning out the numbers, but the people, the children, their needs, their talents, are lost in the mess.
Teachers on the whole just want to teach. They want to be compensated fairly so that they can raise their families and still do what they love. The unions advocate for the teachers. They have their flaws as I well know, but they also handled a problem or two for me when I needed.
I see all these silly comments about if you don’t like the way things are run, quit. Please. Don’t sit here and tell me every single one of you love the way things are done at your workplace. So you point out the flaws, and then hope/work for improvement. That’s the way things work. Is there a rule that teachers can’t be dissatisfied?
Honestly.
There is something we do to little of and that is dialogue. We think that like in the commercial we can pick up and understand everyone’s job. It just isn’t that simple. I have never taught in Harford County, and I do not know this system. I know what I hear from teacher’s, what I read, and I remember what it was like on the inside. So I make it a point not to judge and to hope that one day everyone remembers what teacher’s know, that education is first and foremost about the child.
SC – finally someone hits one of the key problems with our educational system – politics. Our educational system isnt’ struggling because of poor teachers, and Lord knows it isn’t because we don’t pump money into it. Look at the political insanity that drives our educational system. For instance – we have a County, State and Federal “Board of Education.” Look at the enormous waste of cash and dithering that takes place at all levels of the bureacracy. None of this actually pays the teachers or educates “Johnny.” The day we handed over our children’s education to the government, was the day we initiated our own decline. Unfortunately, this snowball has been churning down a long snowy path for decades and nobody dare get in its way – very sad for all of us, especially our children.
Take away the Federal component in education and keep it local. Save billions of dollars and make the decision making closer to the impact of such decisions.
I am with you on that one.
Without the federal government and state government setting standards, I shudder to think what folk like Mr. Craig would do to our schools.
@Kharn….your comment: You need to look at education as a business, not a taxpayer-fueled gravy train, and provide the best education for the dollar. HCPS practically has a monopoly on education (McDonalds vs Five Guys is a good comparison), but that does not mean it is acceptable to allow individual locations’ performance to continue to disappoint solely because of institutional momentum.
This idea surfaces periodically and isn’t really appropriate…Consider that if we are going to run education as a business, then that means that just like any business that wants to be successful, I will only choose the raw product that will give me an excellent end result. And if that supplier doesn’t meet specs, I can end my contract with them and find another supplier. So. How do you tell a parent that their child “doesn’t meet specs” and therefore can’t come into your classroom because there’s no way they will ever meet the level required? Will you give me permission to deny a child from my class because they won’t meet the level required to meet my performance objective in the evaluation model currently being written. If I’m going to be evaluated on student performance and we’re ‘running education as a business’, then I should have control over my raw product to increase my final product ratings and my earning potential. Why would I want the struggling student when they would affect my pay and ultimately MY family’s financial stability? I have a friend with a child that started the year reading on a 1st grade level in the 3rd grade. He’s now on a second grade level-his success of improving an entire grade level is tainted because the evaluation says “reading on grade level”. So instead of celebrating his growth-both he and his teacher have failed to meet the required performance. You can’t have it both ways-and children’s education shouldn’t be a business venture or a political tool.
The evaluation standards would be difficult to determine fairly (and I stated it should not be based solely on student performance), but your student complaint is definitely valid. I was in classes with inclusion students in elementary and high school. I say end the practice immediately, aptitude test every student during third grade and group them by ability. Give the teachers the power to bump students up or down a tier if they can provide sufficient proof the student did not perform within statistical norms for that ability level for the year. If the administration caves to a parent’s demands and allows a kid to remain in a too-high tier, that kid’s performance should be easy to show as an outlier and not count against the teacher.
Tangential issue, but social promotion needs to go. It is a disservice to all of the students and society as a whole because the teacher is stuck teaching at the lowest common denominator, holding back the students that could excel (or in particularly bad cases, even the kids performing at grade level). Kids should repeat subjects until they can pass each year’s curriculm, even if they’re 17 and taking 4th grade spelling/grammar with a tutor instead of a normal English class.
Kharn you are still not dealing with the problem; in one paragraph you say:
“If the administration caves to a parent’s demands and allows a kid to remain in a too-high tier, that kid’s performance should be easy to show as an outlier and not count against the teacher.”
OK but than you say:
“…..but social promotion needs to go. It is a disservice to all of the students and society as a whole because the teacher is stuck teaching at the lowest common denominator, holding back the students that could excel (or in particularly bad cases, even the kids performing at grade level).”
So which is it. I would agree the second is more accurate. The social promotion issue is a big debate. Studies show retention only works up to 3rd or 4th grade after that a retianed student is far more likely to drop out of school. I do think retention in Elemantary school should be a given for those who fall more than a year behind and the parent should not be the one making the decision.
I feel both are accurate. I use tiers to mean the difference between AP, honors, academic and basic levels, if a 10th grader is holding back an honors class, he should be dropped to academic for the 11th grade class and/or repeat the 10th grade one (if his performance is poor enough).
Having each grade’s classes divided by aptitude allows for a wide range of speed. The smart kids can learn extra, fun subjects, while the special kids get the help they need, and the regular students plod along with the normal curriculm.
My position is that such stratification should be used much earlier than high school. 3rd or 4th grade would be a good start.
Unfortunately the rush by school systems to look good has resulted in students being pushed into AP classes that do not belong there. Teachers have little or no say in which students take AP classes and poor past academic performance does not keep under-qualified students out of advanced classes. I know of students taking honors classes that have GPA’s below 2.0 whose only decent grades are in classes like phys ed, art, computed tech., and other non academic classes. This situation, while not as extreme, exists at the AP level as well.
When I was in high school (Calvert HS, 96-00), you had to meet several conditions to take an AP class:
1. The previous level’s teacher’s recommendation (there was no jumping straight into AP chemistry, you had to do well in Honors first)
2. You had to sign an agreement that you would take the AP test and give the school the $75 test fee the first week of school.
3. You and your parent(s) had to speak with the guidance counseller to make sure it was the right fit for your post-HS plans
4. The principal had to approve your request
At the time, the school offered less than ten AP classes because they did not feel they could adequately teach any others for a number of reasons. I’m sure that has changed now, in every school’s bid to have the highest number of AP students to look good on the school’s website for prospective students’ parents, but I’ve noticed not many publish what percentage of their AP students get a 5 or how many declined to take the test…
@KHARN HCPS has this information but they choose not to release it because the numbers would be discouraging.
Many colleges no longer accept any AP scores of 3 and if the course you are trying to get credit for is one from the major you have declared many colleges will not even accept an AP score of 5, they want you to take the course from their professors.
There are different reasons for this but from the college professors and counselors I have talked to they say that some of the material they want students to know is not covered deeply enough in the AP courses, this is especially true in subjects of a declared major, but most frequently they say the AP courses offered in high school simply are not rigorous enough.
Another reason many students do not take the AP exam is because the entire score is based on one final exam. After taking over 180 college credits I have never taken a college course where this was the case. Your grade was built on a body of work you completed over the entire semester not one exam. This is not the way colleges do it so why for AP? Realistically AP should be for the academically gifted and honors classes for those above average students. The only ones making out on the AP rush are school system wanting bragging rights and the company that sells and administers the AP exams is making a boatload of money.
there is no social promotion in high school you must earn your credits to advance.
Elementary and Middle school has tiers but the problem is rarely are kids held back once they are behind in elementary school and you end up with 8th graders reading on the 3rd grade level.
Kharn – Good call on ending social promotion.
Actually Dagger posted the AP test data last year for all Harford County high schools.
At MMS we fear retaliation if we complain “out loud”. It will be denied, of course, but it is real.
A letter was sent to every member of the Board of Education of Harford County listing the issues and concerns regarding MMS. If the Board members would look at the responses from the teachers on this survey, they would understand that the letter was not “false accusations” and be worty of some investigative merit.
The students are the ones who are losing out.
A friend forwarded me an article that speaks to some of the discussions here..
This piece was inspired by a heated discussion I had with a man who believes that teachers have an easy job. Please feel free to share it with others if you agree with the message.
I used to be a molecular biologist. I spent my days culturing viruses……Today, I’m a high school teacher. I spend my days culturing teenagers. Sometimes, my students get disruptive, and I swear to myself in frustration. Acquaintances ask me how my work is going. I explain how I’m having a difficult time with a certain kid. I can’t seem to get him to pay attention in class.
Acquaintances smirk knowingly. And they say, “well, have you tried making it fun for the kids? That’s how you get through to them, you know?”
And then, they explain to me how I should do my job….
I realize now how little respect teachers get. Teaching is the toughest job everyone who’s never done it thinks they can do. I admit, I was guilty of these delusions myself.
……………Maybe that’s why teachers get so little respect. It’s hard to respect a skill that is so hard to quantify.
So, maybe you just have to take our word for it. The next time you walk into a classroom, and you see the teacher calmly presiding over a room full of kids, all actively engaged in the lesson, realize that it’s not because the job is easy. It’s because we make it look easy. And because we work our asses off to make it look easy.
And, yes, we make it fun, too.
Full article is here: http://www.musingsonlifeandlove.com/2010/09/13/the-hardest-job-everyone-thinks-they-can-do/
@CDV: I just wanted to comment briefly on your comment about social promotion in High School. I know someone who is student teaching at a High School in BCPS and he has stated as the end of the year is approaching, that they are told to promote some students, and that the students are well aware that they will be passed. It may not occur everywhere but it apparently is occurring some places.
Social promotion is a touch issue. The idea of keeping students behind, for more than one year simply isn’t practical. However having sat in meeting where promotion was debated it was something teachers took very seriously, but administrators did not always. At the end of the year teachers would discuss promotion, who belonged in what class, and sometimes at the beginning of the year, much of the teacher’s thought and efforts were ignored. It is a broken system.
If parents protest retention, if IEP’s are involved, and if the child has already failed once, retention can be difficult. The problem is once a child is retained, unless and IEP can be implemented, there are no services to help them catch up. According to the rules of the federal government, you must be two years behind to get an IEP. Thus if you’ve been behind since kindergarten, you have to get to second grade before you can be considered for services, unless another circumstance exists. I had a child who wasn’t enrolled in school until second grade because her mother was on drugs. She couldn’t read in second grade. She couldn’t get an IEP because she hadn’t been in school for two years, because she wasn’t two years behind. A statistic waiting to happen. One morning she came to school, after being given back to her mother, and said her mother had told her she didn’t need to go to school. She told her mother I said it was important and came.
I worked with people who poured their heart, money and lives into these children. Social promotion is a problem, but the bigger problem is that the system is fragmented. They fail twice and we promote them, and then what. 30 other people are in the room. Everyone can’t have an IEP. We have all these breakdowns in the middle of the system, and then the pipes burst and everyone else is at fault.
Parents can help by being involved, teachers do their best and at the end of the day you hope to teach as many as you can. As I said before until we value our children, and decide that we are about education and not image, is the day that change will be visible.
That is not social promotion…..that is people putting pressure on teachers to issue passing grades that the student did not earn. Social promotion is when it is decided that you failed 8th grade but we are non academically promoting you to 9th grade. Once in high school you must earn credits by passing classess to be promoted to the next grade. I believe you need 5 credits one in English and one in math to become a tenth grader. If you earn 4.5 credits but pass english you will take english 10 but still be a ninth grader until you earn the .5 credits you need. You can not earn a HS diploma without the minimum number of credits!
HCPSTeach…don’t try to convince the Dagger Lemmings of anything here. The same loud mouths post here, patch, aegis…everywhere. It’s the same bunch of crazies who complain about everything.
Many students can not be retained in elementary because the parents fight against retention. Also, some children are not retained in K because of their height. If they feel the child is going to be too tall compared to the other new K kids, they will pass him/her on to the next grade level.
So I open up the email today to see that my health insurance won;t be going up this year thank goodnees. Also, the mandatory prescription program was passed to offset the costs. then I read down further and saw the following:
Currently, HCEA has chosen not to accept the mandatory generic drug program which was being offered to offset a possible increase in healthcare premiums. By taking this position, HCEA members will receive a slight rate increase in order to preserve the premium name brand prescription coverage for employees who use those medications. At this time, we must move forward with our scheduled annual open enrollment period for benefits. The Board will continue to negotiate the generic prescription plan with HCEA and will keep you informed of the outcome of those negotiations. HCEA is the bargaining representative for all teachers regardless of membership status.
So now I am screwed again by the HCEA!!!!
Sorry about the spelling above. I hit send before I proofread it.
The county is just playing games….again. They were just refunded millions and millions due to premium overpayments. In fact, you will be getting a premium holiday very soon. They did not have to increase teacher health insurance premiums. But in this current era of “bash the teacher,” they might as well stick it to you while the climate is right.
Exactly Reggie- and try to pit the teachers against their union in these divisive politics. After all- We should be thanking HCPS leadership for cutting our health care once again as well as not even considering going to the table to reneogiatei the fulfillment of ur contract. HCPS was “pleased to announce they won’t be increasing health care unless you are teacher- then the backlash goes to the union which is exactly what they WANT….” Thanks- thanks so much!!!
Was writing quickly and in my anger over this latest debacle also made some spelling errors- forgive me…
This is ONE more example of more cuts and more attempts to turn teachers against the union- who are the only voice we have. They are the ONLY ones fighting for teachers- like it or not. Let’s consider the ramifications of this new plan- while in most cases it may not matter if the drugs are generic or not, in some critical ways it might. My mother- a breast cancer survivor- would not have been able to afford the cutting edge, not generic drugs that saved her life under this plan. And I know all too well just how easy it is to appeal to the insurance company (NOT!) having attempted to and despite doctors orders and letters of request prior to the procedure- got billed for the entire cost of the mammogram that was deemed medically neccessary due to my family history. I guess the insurance company would rather pay for the more expensive treatments in undetected cancer versus preventative measures and early detection.
And the most infuriating aspect of ALL is that the tone of the email we received this morning acts like increasing our costs or switching our plan is something we should be so thankful for. I guess that’s HCPS for you. I feel like on top of not going to the table to seek a way to fulfill our frozen contract after three years this is the straw that will break many a back- mine included. I am completely disheartened and can hear all of the teachers now, as already demonstrated, blaming the union for this, which is exactly the type of divisive politics that will leave us no voice at all. Recognize who is on your side, teachers, or we will just see more and more disregard and cuts until there is nothing left at all. Yet the price of milk goes up- the price of gas goes up- the cost of living goes up- and now the cost of health care goes up…..
Have you compared the two fee structures?…HCEA members will be paying either from 68 cents to $1.22 more bi-weekly to NOT be forced into a mandatory generic prescription plan. Personally, I think it’s the other unions that got screwed for a dollar.
The unions attitude about cost savings is exactly what has led to their demise in the mid-west. The vast majority of teachers are getting generics including myself. So I have to pay $20 or $30 more a year so that a few teachers can have a much more expensive brand name drug with the same ingredient for no medical reason.
pissing in the wind over $20
If you need a single name brand during the year you will pay that $20 and then some.
You must be one of our exceptional union leaders.
Those who go to the generic plan may save a few cents…until you are given a drug with no generic compliment. Then, you will lose hundreds of dollars. I know…I am currently on one of those wonderful generic plans.
You are not well informed about our plan. If there isn’t a generic available you do get the brand name at a copay. Sorry to hear your plan didn’t address that issue.
I hope, for your sake, that you are correct. On my plan, if I need Drug X and there is no generic counterpart, I have to pay the difference between the copay and the actual drug cost. That is costly. Be vigilant! I would not be shocked if that is the way your board is leading you.
Here is what I received – “The mandatory generic prescription program will not impact a vast majority of HCPS employees as they are currently utilizing generic medications. In addition, name brand medications will still be made available for those drugs that do not have a generic counterpart and/or the name brand drug has been deemed medically necessary through an appeal process with Carefirst.”
Yeah, I’ve been through an “appeal process”! What a nightmare! Leave the health plan alone! Enough problems arise now as it is.
@CDEV: Thanks for the clarification. I see social promotion going hand in hand with what I was speaking of because there is so much pressure in some circles to make the grades passing enough so the student moves along. They actually did fail academically but on paper you must make it look like they passed. I believe my friend in High School is facing that type of quandary. The grades will be passing so the students can graduate or move along, but in actuality they have not passed. Paper vs. Reality.