From the office of Del. Pat McDonough:
Delegate Pat McDonough has officially formed a campaign committee that will lead the effort to defeat Senate Bill 167, known as the “Dream Act.” The referendum issue was placed on the ballot based on a successful petition drive that collected more than 130,000 signatures in a few months.
Although the petition is currently being challenged in the courts, Delegate McDonough maintains that the litigation is frivolous and will be defeated.
The campaign will be a non-partisan state-wide effort. Democrats, Republicans, and Independents will be asked to participate. A fund-raising program is already under way.
Supporters of the “Dream Act,” such as Casa de Maryland, the SEIU union, and other advocates for illegal aliens have already begun organizing and raising funds. Delegate McDonough stated, “The citizens of Maryland, in a bi-partisan fashion, have already indicated their strong opposition to the idea that taxpayers should provide benefits to fund college tuition discounts for illegal aliens. The historic success of the petition drive demonstrated the passion and outrage by the citizens of Maryland regarding their hard-earned money being used to underwrite breaking the law. They also are angry about the unfairness of their young people losing access to a college education by being displaced by illegal aliens. There will be large amounts of money poured into Maryland from out-of-state sources attempting to mislead the people and promote the ‘Dream Act.’ The people’s petition defeated the politicians in Annapolis and now the people must rise again and defeat the lies,” concluded Delegate McDonough.
If the citizens in Maryland don’t stand up against the Democrats and their support for the illegals, you will become just like California. How sad that the people you vote in office to represent you, turn their backs on you and support people who are breaking the law by being here illegally. And to add insult to injury, your tax dollars are paying for this, and your children could be denied a place in the very colleges that you are paying for.
I guess if the liberals prevail in Maryland, we’ll see more of the citizens moving to PA or VA. It doesn’t take much more time to get to your jobs from either state. That’s what happens when a state is as small as Maryland.
Cathy: Don’t let the door hit you on the way out! The Dream Act only wants all Maryland tax payers to get the same tuition break.
I don’t support the act, but does she even live here?
The Dream Act rewards foreigners who violate our immigration laws.
B.S.
Don’t make this a racists thing, it is about fairness.
Hey Proud,
Maybe I missed something, but I didn’t see anyone say anything about race except you.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul Mc: Don’t be naïve, the following are synonyms for Mexicans: “you will become just like California”, “being here illegally”. This is all about Hispanics. I have never heard anyone talk about illegal Russians.
Hey Proud,
That would be ethnicity, not race. Also, I have heard talk about illegal Russians, and illegal ‘Asians’ and illegals from the Middle East and illegals from eastern Europe. However, as the majority of the illegal immigrants are Hispanic, shouldn’t that be the focus?
Anyways, have a nice day.
Proud to be Liberal: Wow, you know what is on everyone’s mind whether they say it or not! Poor Cathy, she just didn’t know you knew so much about her. California has a significant problem with illegals (most of which are Hispanic) and both the legal and natural born Hispanics in the US know it. For all you or anyone else knows, Cathy may be an Hispanic, and if so, does that make Cathy a racist?
Proud to be a Liberal makes the most important point….the Maryland Dream Act only provides in-statue tuition to unauthorized immigrations who are ALREADY paying state income taxes. The truth is that until now those with legal residence have been freeloading off of the state taxes paid by these immigrants, a portion of which went to higher education. So spew out your opposition if you want, but get the facts right, please.
ELIAS VLANTON,
What are “unauthorized immigrants”? Are there “authorized immigrants”? If I’m “unauthorized” how can I become “authorized”?
If we now have “unauthorized immigrants” where did all the illegal aliens or illegal immigrants go?
Did you just solve the US illegal immigration problem? Can I now legally hire an “unauthorized immigrants”? Can I continue to pay them off-the-books?
“unauthorized immigrants” = illegal alien lawbreakers
That is incorrect Elias, the law says that they only have to file a tax return, not that any taxes were paid…
Proud,
This about all illegals and you know it. Don’t play stupid because I know you aren’t. If you are here illegal then you don’t get the same benefits as citizens. Period. End of discussion. The Democrats want them to have a drvers license so they can get a voters card and every other benefit legally reserved for citizens. Also, skip the taxpayer nonsense. You know this is not about paying taxes. I don’t mind you having a different point of view but at least have the honesty to let people know the real reason.
The illegal Russians need to leave, too. Same with ILLEGAL Irish. Illegal Chinese? Ditto! The key word here is “ILLEGAL”…what part of this word do you fail to understand?
It is fair to enforce our laws – all of them! Which one do you feel like breaking today PTBAL? Get the point – no picking and choosing. Fair would be to ship illegals home and allow them to come back in legally (which by the way is permitted in case you feel there is some great barrier stopping them from filing the appropriate papers).
You leftists aren’t the arbiters of fairness or anything else. You are OPEN BORDERS, INTERNATIONALISTS, that put American citizens last on a regular basis. Go spout your fairness b.s. off to one of your own, no doubt living in some up scale snotty community.
California has an illegal immigration problem like no other state with the vast majority of illegal aliens being from Latin American countries. There are also Chinese, Korean and Indian illegal immigrants in California as well.
Proud are there a lot of Russian illegal immigrants in Maryland?
I need to speak up for the DREAM act. If you read the Wikipedia entry, you will find that it sets up guidelines for young people who arrived in the USA as minors, have lived here continuously for at least 5 years and are “of good moral character” to gain temporary resident status in order to gain a college education or serve in the military. It doesn’t pay for their education, but it does give them the opportunity to get loans, and resident status in order to obtain the education needed in order to be contributing citizens. It isn’t a quick process, 5 years of residency, a 6 year temporary residency and then permanent resident status. It doesn’t guarantee citizenship – which would be another step.
I won’t necessarily voice an opinion about their parents who came here illegally. That isn’t their fault. However, I will say that the life of an illegal alien isn’t easy. They don’t have the protections of a citizen, their illegal status often prevents them from well paying jobs. Their employers often take advantage of their illegal status to pay them poorly, and their illegal status also makes them vulnerable to losing their employment and security, lack of health care, etc. Yet, they come, because the opportunities seem better here than at home. It’s not a fate that I’d want.
If we’re worried about a burden on society, I’d worry more about the uneducated children who are no longer a part of their home country, and are trapped here with no legal way to sustain themselves. I think that the DREAM Act is a practical solution to the problem. I think that it’s naive and idealistic to cry foul and demand punishment of these people. I’m very happy to be fortunate enough to never have to make the decisions that they have had to make.
A.
Angelique
I understand you support the Dream Act, but just a thought for you. It does not take a college education to be a productive and contributing citizen in this country. Getting an advanced formal education is fine, but certainly not necessary.
I would have to disagree with you that an education less than college level is adequate to provide the training necessary to make a living wage in this country. With a family of four making $40,000 or less defined as the poverty line in this country, working class careers such as a mediical assistant and warehouse worker fall well below that level, and that is with a two year level education. With so many jobs now in the service sector (which Americans are poor at performing). The former model of manufacturing jobs providing entry level for people who aspire to be middle class is no longer viable with most manufacturing going overseas.
David,
Angelique used the term “contributing citizens”. She (if she is a she), made no reference to earning ability.
My point to her, and to you, would be:
Most of our men and women in the Armed Forces do not have college degrees. Don’t you think they contribute?
Most of the plumbers, electricians, HVAC people, assembly line auto workers, and workers on other assembly lines don’t have college degrees. Don’t you think they contribute?
I spent a career in the US Military, without a college degree, do you not think I contributed?
Most of the police and firefighters that provide a public safety service to you do not have college degrees. Perhaps you don’t feel they contribute!!
If you do feel that all of the people mentioned above contribute, but for lack of a college education, they don’t make a living wage, then perhaps we should direct out efforts to providing them a living wage, before we start providing educational advantages to the children of illegals.
I agree with what you are saying about the military… but in that instance they are receiving training that roughly compares to technical training they would receive outside the military in either a technical school or a two year college or whatever. Your comments about auto assembly line workers are also valid. I had offered that manufacturing jobs have been on the wane in this country with a lot being sent overseas where the labor and environmental controls are cheaper. The HVAC people I know are trained and certified. The officers in law enforcement that I have met have also received training akin to technical school level. All of these things that you describe are not ready to employ out of high school. Additional training is required and if the military is willing to take on a non-citizen and train them as a path towards citizenship why shouldn’t a non-military avenue also be available? All of the employment you have mentioned requires training with the possible exception of assembly line work or warehouse work. And you can add landscaping to that as well or road work. Basically I’m saying if you want a living wage a two year degree or training in a skill or certification is required to get those jobs you describe.
David,
You are talking about ones ability to earn money. That’s why you referenced earning a living wage.
Angelique stated: …”in order to gain a college education or serve in the military. It doesn’t pay for their education, but it does give them the opportunity to get loans, and resident status in order to obtain the education needed in order to be contributing citizens.”
I take what she has said to mean that you need to have a college education in order to be a contributing citizen. Perhaps she did not mean that. Perhaps in her zest to support the Dream Act, she has said something that she does not mean. But it is what she said, and if she means it, then I don’t agree with her!!
Angelique also states that these people should not be punished. As for as I know, the children of illegals can go to college in the US, they just don’t get “in state” tuition price, but neither do the US citizens from VA, PA, etc.. Are we punishing those folks also?
The lady who cleans our house does not have a college education, but I can assure you, both my wife and I think the cleaning contributes!!
RETIRED: you asked, “but neither do the US citizens from VA, PA, etc.. Are we punishing those folks also?” You missed the point that instate tuition should be afforded to those who are paying MARYLAND taxes. The folks from VA, PA, etc. pay taxes in those states and get in state tuition. Believe me I know as I paid out of state tuition for years.
David,
Why do you feel that Hispanic-Americans are poor at performing service sector jobs?
Angelique: You have provided an eloquent and reasoned overview to the Dream Act and why it is in the best interest of this country to embrace it. Those who oppose it are only Tea Partiers who are frightened to lose their political power. All one needs to remember is how they unlawfully treated all people of Hispanic origins (some of whom are who are fifth generation Americans) in Arizona, then you can see why they are fearful. But do not worry, time will create a majority of Democrats who will represent the PEOPLE of the US rather than rich corporations and billionaires.
You’re full of crap. It was widely reported that about 1/3 of the signatures on the petition were from Democrats. I don’t think there are many Democrats that consider themselves members of the Tea Party.
Such a gross over simplification of the issue and shovel sized brushing of the opponents make exceedingly clear your own bias and corrodes the credibility of any otherwise sensible commments you make.
Open your mouth carefully next time.
Noble, congratulations. That is the most fire I have ever seen come from you on any issue. Keep up the good work.
I am a rule follower and cannot abide rule breakers. And in this case, I cannot abide deceit either. PTBL is educated, or possibly mis-educated, enough to know the facts and did not state them. Inflammatory labels foster nothing productive and my patience was breached.
I had no intentions of getting into this commentary because it has been hashed out here before, but I couldn’t sit on my hands when I see people spouting completely wrong information.
Instead of opening his mouth carefully next time I would prefer that PTBL not open it at all if he can’t speak the truth.
ALEX R: I see that your argument is your usual ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM screed. Don’t you have anything else in your quiver?
Proud,
You’re beginning to shout in many of your posts. Did you have a frustrating morning watching Fox and Friends? Whats up with the shouting?
Hey Proud,
You have done the same as you are accusing Alex R of doing, ad hominem attacks. You have also done the same as you have accused Retired to have done, the ad populum attacks. You consistently call out people for various logic fallacies, yet you continually commit them yourself. Why is that?
Anyways, have a nice day.
Proud to be Liberal is a pseudo-intellectual adrift in a toxic sea of failed liberal progressivism.
PAUL MC: Touché, but at least I make an attempt to be factual.
Proud,
Thanks for using the word “attempt”. While you are not always successful in your attempts at being factual, it is nice to think you try. Good for you!
But you must see that I just act only as a counter attack. I give as good as I get and if one wants to start with me, expect my fire back.
And its great fun for you. Enjoy the back and forth.
Angelique states that the Dream Act says you must be of good moral character. Can you be a criminal (illegal) and be of good moral character? She also states that a minor has to live here for 5 years. Does that mean that any illegal minor who sneaks across the border and evades the authorities for 5 years will qualify? The law states that if you’re here illegally you will be deported. Shouldn’t the minors and their parents all be deported or should we just ignore the laws some people don’t like?
HYDESMANN: What we should do is revise our immigration laws to encourage MORE legal immigration. We must make it easier for these productive, law abiding people to become American citizens. I think the biggest impediment to immigration reform is the deep seated fear that white men (i.e. most of our law makers and 99% of Republican/Tea Partiers) will no longer be ascendant.
Is it difficult for productive, law abiding persons, to come to America? If it is, what is difficult about it?
Or do you mean we should make it easy for productive, illegals (whose only illegal and unlawful activity is coming here without approval) and otherwise law abiding to obtain American Citizenship?
PTBL: I agree that if The citizens of America want more legal immigration they should work to change the existing laws. However, the laws that are now on the books should be enforced, not ignored. That means punishing the lawbreakers (illegals) not rewarding them and putting pressure on Mexico to help their citizens. I believe there are plenty of productive, law abiding Americam citizens here already and we really don’t need to import any.
Illegal immigrants have decided they have every right to cross the border and seek a better life in the US instead of trying to fix the situation in their own country. They have decided they are entitled to treat US borders and immigration laws as a mere inconvenience. Folks like “Proud” are all for this… no doubt if they were all conservatives illegally immigrating from the island kingdom of “Republicana” he’d be outraged and demanding action. In order to really teach these law breakers a lesson, our brilliant Governor has decided the best course is to reward them… at which point, in my mind, the State will become complicit – fully aware of a person’s illegal status and choosing to ignore it. I am not prejudice. I am not in the Tea Party. Unlike most of the folks posting here, I HAVE invested the time and money to endure the LEGAL immigration process with my spouse; jumping through their absurd hoops and dealing with their bureaucratic nonsense and petty tyrants… which is why I fail to understand why illegal immigrants should be rewarded for any reason.
AMAZED: And you don’t want to reform the immagration process? I am amazed.
PTBL, you have to be one of the thickest headed persons I have ever read. Reply to people with some semblance of intelligence other than your Democratic Party liberalism and socialism.
And MONSTER: You are one of the stupidest believing anything on Fox and voting against your own best interests. Would you jump off of a bridge if Glen Beck told you to?
So you watch FOX most of time. I’m surprised.
RETIRED: One must keep up with the opposition.
PROUD,
Well no wonder FOX’s ratings are so much better than MSNBC. The opposition, in addition to viewers who are interested in a fair and balanced news outlet, are watching.
Retired: Are you trying to assert that because Fox is more POPULAR that makes it truer? I would call that the fallacy of ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM.
Proud,
It is easy to understand why you watch Fox so much, they are fair and balanced. I mean, who wouldn’t. I completely understand, you want to hear both sides of an issue. Good for you!
Proud, I would love to see the immigration process reformed. Start by closing the border as if it were an actual boundary so that immigration can be dealt with fairly – instead of geographically. I fail to see how rewarding illegal immigrants and thereby encouraging others to migrate to Maryland can be misconstrued as “reform”.
We also need to lock up the criminal American employers who hire them and provide a motive to come.
That said a minoir child can not be responsible for his parents faults.
Agree. Lock up the employers who hire them, and send all illegals back to where they came from. How is sending them back to their country “punishment”?
Agreed. Lock them up and if possible fine them all the proceeds from the activity. Minor children are not responsible, but who is paying for college? Rewarding them with a break rewards those who were responsible and encourages more to do likewise.
Are we forgetting what the Dream Act actually says? It only applies to those unauthorized immigrants who had paid Maryland income taxes for several years. No one is rewarding anyone. Their parents deserve the same rights as every other Maryland taxpayer, which include in-state tuition for tax-paying residents of the state.
So you think we should let them vote? That is a right of MD taxpaying citizens.
Why? So they paid taxes. I didn’t tell them to. I didn’t invite them. Paying taxes doesn’t make them legal. Why is someone who isn’t even supposed to be here entitled to in-state tuition? Just because you think its right? I don’t. Convince me. Like I said, I paid the legal immigration fees and ran all around between INS offices from Baltimore to Dover. Because of that, I reserve the right to look at illegals with contempt. Who is going to pay me back my time and money?
Wow, Amazed. You just don’t get it. You do not have the right to look at anyone with contempt. You look down your nose at those who can not use the current system because they do not have the resources and ability to negotiate the byzantine beauracracy that you did. Shall we punish a ten year old because his parents are not able to “run around between Baltimore and Dover”? No way. Not in my America. I stand proudly for the Dream Act and to advocate for those that deserve the same opportunity you had and I had. My contempt is reserved for the likes of you.
No, Billy apparently I don’t get it. You fail to understand it isn’t “resources and ability” they lack to do what I had to do, it’s the legal standing. No one is punishing a ten year old, we’re talking about college tuition rates. You stand proudly and advocate for those who are here illegally and encourage more illegals to move to Maryland to enjoy the sanctuary its liberal government is creating and folks like myself who disagree and object are simply contemptible. I’ll accept your contempt and raise you double. I have in-laws I have to meet in Hong Kong to take to Disney because our State Department denies them a tourist Visa… what a shame they weren’t born on this side of the Pacific so they could just sneak in and be rewarded by folks like yourself.
Forgetting a falsehood? Maybe you should ACTUALLY READ THE BILL you are talking about. It doesn’t say “paid taxes” is says “filed” a tax return. Here, I’ll help you out, it’s on page 4. Enjoy
http://mlis.state.md.us/2011rs/bills/sb/sb0167e.pdf
Filing tax returns with a Federal Tax Identification Number to illegally get an Earned Income Tax Credit does not mean you’ve paid taxes.
Elias,
If an illegal alien has paid income taxes in Maryland, that means they have committed one or more crimes by working in the state.
How ’bout we start with out politicians?!! They have facilitated the entire scam and continue to foster it regardless of the will of the people.
Unauthorized Immigrants. I know some of you love seeing how many times you can use the phrase “illegal immigrants” or “illegal aliens” in a post, but unauthorized immigrant is a more accurate description of people whose sole unlawful act may have been to cross the border without permission. A person who violated the speeding law is not an “illegal driver” he/she is just someone who drives lawfully and has violated the law once. What I find most hypocritical is that some rant about “illegals” and never mention their illegal employers, including the managers of WalMart, farmers through the country, and tens of thousands of small business owners, who have benefitted off of the sweat of these unauthorized workers.
Someone who drives without a license is an illegal driver, and is driving illegally. Someone who has a drivers license and is speeding, is legally operating their vehicle in an illegal manner. The penalty for driving illegally and speeding is significantly different than operating the vehicle while legally authorized to do so, and then speeding.
Illegal immigrant is a term that has been used since before many of those posting here were born. It’s unfortunate you find it offensive, but it reflects reality better than “unauthorized”. You are correct, someone that speeds isn’t driving illegally, but one who drives without a license – be it revoked or suspended or never obtained – is.
So… when does a thief stop being a thief? Is it only when they are theiving? Only for 24 hours after they stop theiving? Or is it until they are caught? What about when they serve their time? When they get out of jail are they still a thief, or not anymore?
Your semantics are pointless. The ever-present act of living illegally in a country in which you aren’t “authorized” to do so makes you and your actions illegal, and it should be called as much.
You can parse whatever you want if it makes you feel better, but it doesn’t change any facts in the matter.
Could my three “unauthorized immigrant” respondents agree that our first priority should be to apprehend, prosecute, and jail all “illegal employers” over the last 25 years, during which time they broke American law. Why should American citizens who broke the law, and there are hundreds of thousands of them, get a pass? Jail them first, all of them, including the farmers, the department store managers, the construction company owners, etc. and I will stop supporting the Dream Act. Until then, all the “illegal this, illegal that” is all a bunch of hypocrisy.
Go for it. Jail all the ones who hire illegals. I don’t see the connection to the Dream Act, but ok.
Ditto. You break the law, you pay for it. Let justice be done. I don’t care how much money you have, what color your skin is, where you are from, what language you speak, or any thing else. Illegal is illegal. Period. Consequences of our actions need to be a fact of life.
You can choose to support or oppose the law for whatever possibly misguided reason you choose, but your “argument” here clearly doesn’t have much to do with this bill or provide any real convincing reason for opposing it.
The greedy corporate masters out there deserve every inch of the baton they have earned.
Anyone else hear how the Walmart family’s personal wealth is equal to that of 30% of all Americans? How can that signal a problem to a rational person? But I digress.
You and I agree, but the federal government and the companies and elites who run this country have encouraged unauthorized immigration. NO ONE IS GOING TO GO AFTER THE ILLEGAL EMPLOYERS OF THE LAST 25 YEARS. As a result, the people who have been here for years and been model citizens (at least as model as the illegal employers who hired them) should get a path to citizenship. If you don’t like it, don’t eat Purdue chickens (illegal employer), don’t shop at WalMart (illegal retailer) and don’t drive on the road built by illegal contractors.
Hey Elias,
It is interesting that you call the illegal aliens ‘unauthorized’, yet you call the illegal employers ‘illegal’. A little biased perhaps?
Anyways, have a nice day.
Elias, they do have a path to citizenship. It’s called go home and get in line like the rest of the good folks who want to come here.
And I agree with Paul MC. Your bias is showing.
Elias aren’t you the liberal progressive socialist high school social studies teacher from the DC suburbs?
Paul MC they are illegal because the employers are breaking the law. That makes them illegal.
Hey Cdev,
“Paul MC they are illegal because the employers are breaking the law. That makes them illegal.” – Yes, I understand why they are called illegal. I was commenting on the way one is called illegal as opposed to the way the other is called unauthorized. They are both illegal to me and should be called such.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Elias Vlanton,
So are you an “authorized” or “unauthorized” driver who violates the speed limit in an unauthorized manner?
Here is your problem Elias, you are a political correctness corrector. You preach tolerance when in fact you are most intolerant, especially when you go so far as to change standard definitions to politically corrected and sanitized terms to the extent that the new term is an obfuscation of the actual meaning.
In other words illegal immigrants are simply illegal immigrants and they cannot be “unauthorized immigrants nor is calling someone an illegal immigrant pejorative, it’s just factual.
Of course illegal is pejorative. Your imaginary “illegal immigrants”, do they live in illegal houses and eat illegal food? No, the act of crossing the border was illegal, not their entire existence.
Elias
Do legal resident aliens live in a legal houses and eat legal foods?
A guy a whole lot smarter than me but who is unfortunately anonymous said: “Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.” The attempt to call a criminal anything but a criminal is a great example of the PC police being in league with the Sharia cops.
The problem with your statement is that EVERYONE is smarter than you, Yensan.
VOTE YENSEN (TO LOSE WHATEVER OFFICE HE RUNS FOR) IN 2014!
Dave, did you notice that everyone loves to call their opponents “politically correct.” I find it a cheap shot with no substance.
Elias: That is because they use that term rather than “spick”, but it means the same thing to them.
Nice attempt to paint anyone who disagrees with you as a bigot… certainly not unexpected, but incorrect all the same. I don’t expect anyone who hasn’t been through the legal immigration process to understand my objections.
What really gores their bull is that ANYONE born here is a citizen.
Proud, I’ve seen you dive pretty low to justify your warped opinions but this one takes the cake. You sir are despicable.
“The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”
Elias, you are choosing semantics over substance. What term did you use to describe aliens that should not be here? That is what this discussion is about. Legal, not illegal, entry into this country. We are a nation of immigrants, but the law prescribes how that is supposed to happen- follow it. If the law needs to be changed, change it through the prescribed processes of a republic. Until then, the law stands, and I don’t often say this, but you are wrong.
Monster, here is my overall view: I am neither in favor nor opposed to immigration, the country can decide to open its borders completely or close them completely. I can live with it either way. But the country has been terribly hypocritical about immigration since 1986. Whether you or I like it or not, the country encouraged unauthorized immigration for last 20 plus years. Enforcement was reduced to almost nothing. No employer sanctions, and instead a lot of employers made out like bandits on cheap labor. For those people who have been hard-working for years, committed no felonies, they should have a path to citizenship and if they have paid state taxes their children should be eligible to in-state tuition. Anything less is not worthy of this country.
Elias,
You seem to love seeing how many times you can use the phrase “unauthorized immigrants” in a post, but illegal aliens is a more accurate description of these foreigners, many of whom have violated several laws and have committed crimes after crossing the border illegally.
Every illegal alien who has worked in the United States has committed one or more of the following CRIMES: ID Theft, Document Fraud, Social Security Fraud, Employment (I-9 Form) Fraud, and Conspiracy to Violate Immigration Laws.
Of course, you are an intolerant boor who lives to point out how we should speak in politically correct terms otherwise we are racists.
There is nothing imaginary about the term illegal immigrant or its variant illegal alien. However there is something deceptively euphemistic in your use of “unauthorized immigrant” as substitute for illegal alien/immigrant.
Hey all,
According to Black’s Law Dictionary, an alien is a person who resides within the borders of a country but is not a citizen or subject of that country; while an illegal alien is an alien who enters a country at the wrong time or place, eludes an examination by officials, obtains entry by fraud, or enters into a sham marriage to evade immigration laws.
Seems to me the correct terminology would be illegal alien.
Also, just to note, there is no specific mention as to race/color/creed/ethnicity/national origin. It appears that the Thompson/West treats all illegal aliens the same.
Anyways, have a nice day.
The reason I prefer “unauthorized immigrant” is because the government has not enforced its own laws. The US government….our government, Democrat and Republican…has tolerated and encouraged unauthorized immigration…that’s why is it not “illegal”, regardless of what Black’s Law Dictionary says.
Hey Elias,
“The reason I prefer “unauthorized immigrant” is because the government has not enforced its own laws. The US government….our government, Democrat and Republican…has tolerated and encouraged unauthorized immigration…that’s why is it not “illegal”, regardless of what Black’s Law Dictionary says.” – I am going to disagree with you on this. The government, both the Democrats and the Republicans, have enforced the immigration laws to a certain degree. Are they enforced 100%, no, of course not, then again, no laws are. to support this, since the year 2000, the amount of deportations, both criminal and non-criminal has increased every year except one. Also, in each of these years, there has been more than 150,000 deportations, with more than 250,000 deportations since 2006. Now, I am not so naive as to believe that every government official in every state enforces the policies equally. Some, typically the more liberal states,like Maryland, tend to make things easier for the illegal aliens, while other states, typically the more conservative ones, like Arizona, attempt to make things more diffcult. Also, as I am sure you are aware, some states wich to try to enforce the laws while the federal government attempts to block their efforts. Do they do this to allow the illegal aliens to have easier access or for some other reason, I don’t know.
I do have to agree with you that yes, it has been tolerated, and even encouraged by some local/state governments. But, I must also add that it is not completely tolerated and encouraged, and in fact, some states/political groups/people are opposed to these actions.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul Mc, thanks for the sane reply! I think enforcement has not been serious at all. After the federal government passed comprehensive reform in 1986, when it became illegal for the first time to hire someone not here legally, the government actually reduced the money for enforcement. How can that be? WalMart, which received the largest government fine, for a policy of hiring workers without papers that spanned several states, over many years, and thousands of workers, was fined less than 1/10 of 1% of their profits for one year. Is this serious? How many employers have been jailed for immigration violations in the last 10 years? I think the answer is 0. State efforts I find unreasonable. People already here, and for years, I think deserve a break, but the state laws do not differentiate between the person here who has been working 10 years and the person who just crossed the border. The problem is that the two major parties have tolerated the situation because it benefitted a lot of people, and now don’t have the political cohones to reach a permanent solution.
Paul Mc: Who has deported more illegal aliens in the history of this republic?
PROUD,
I hope/think its Obama, and just like his statements about the economy, where he has acknowledged that its improving but has a long way to go to get better, that the same applies to the number of illegals that get deported. May Obama be even more successful in that endeavor.
Elias,
Any act that is in violation of a law makes that act illegal.
I would simply like to state that I believe I have employed people who may have a questionable legal status in this country. They are hardworking, skillful and eager to work in many jobs that regular citizens born here are reluctant to perform for probably twice the wage. If I had the option I would legalize all of them and deport the girl that was born here with a sense of entitlement bestowed on her by her well to do aloof parents. She is currently into the state of Maryland now for $20,000 per year in support for food, power and medical care, and the birth of her last two of her four children from three different fathers. And this discussion has convinced me that my potential illegal aliens should probably be allowed to have their children go to MD schools at in state tuition rates since they do contribute to the community in more ways than simply taxes.
So you admit you could very well be part of the problem. The illegals are only here because of you. Were it not for you and others like you they would not come.
This insightful comment from the person who believes his cleaning lady contributes to this country simply because she makes his life easier. That is called solipcism. Your extreme egocentrism does not allow you to take the concerns of anyone other than yourself into consideration.
I take it you do not think the cleaning lady contributes anything to our country. Why do you dislike and belittle people who clean for a living?
I dislike and belittle those that determine another person’s worth only by how they impact their own life. That may be too difficult a concept for you to grasp, Retired, as you clearly missed my point.
I made a decision not to afford a cleaning lady Retired. I clean my own home for the little effort it requires. Do you also hire someone to do your lawn work? My son and I maintain mine. When I first moved here I looked around the neighborhood for someone to baby sit my son, and to a person each teenager I asked could not be bothered to babysit. More than likely because their well to do parents provided them with every material thing they needed. Likely they also had cleaning ladies and lawn services.
And you clearly missed my point in your earlier post. I was taking issue with Angelique’s post, wherein she implied that you would need a college education to become a contributing citizen in America.
Many citizens contribute in many ways, with and without a college education. The cleaning lady being one of them. I do not belittle anyone who contributes.
Good for you David, you clean your own house. I do maintain my own lawn, along with my vehicles.
The cleaning lady is a single parent trying to make enough money to raise her family. Yes, my wife and I could probably clean the house ourselves, but the cleaning lady is very good at her job, and she needs the work to support her family. She cheerfully shows up on cleaning day and goes about her work. I suppose she could choose to be someone like the lady you described in one of your posts. One who has children from several different men, who is living off the taxpayers, and who you would rather deport from our country than the illegals you feel you have employed. I am thankful that the cleaning lady wants to stand on her own two feet, and contribute even though she does not have a college education. I am also happy that in some small way I can help her do that.
RETIRED: Do you pay her minimum wage? Do you pay her Social Security? If not, then I would say the same to you: “David’s rationalization notwithstanding, is an example of how corruption creeps into this country. It is caused by greed (or saving a buck in his world).” Don’t talk about law and order if you can make an exception for your behavior. You are part of the problem and not the solution.
PROUD,
She is paid well above minimum wage. She provides all of her cleaning equipment and supplies, so we do not pay any Social Security. She is an self employed contractor, and we provide her a 1099, at the end of the year.
She is a native/natural born American. She makes her own way in life, without the benefit of a college education, and she contributes while not living off of the government. She volunteers at local charities,, and is very active in her church. I respect her, even if others do not. People like Billy Jack and Angelique seem to think that unless you have a college education, you are unable to “really” be a contributing citizen. I think otherwise!
Let’s not be so self-righteous. Anyone who has eaten American fruits and vegetables, driven on American roads, eaten in an American restaurant, or shopped in an American retail store has benefitted for the long hours for low pay work of unauthorized immigrants (which some people feel better to call illegal).
Fruits and vegetables can and are picked by legal documented migrant workers all over. Plus, the illegals know how to game the system. They all have documentation, no matter how obviously fake. Most employers check for government issued id which most can provide easily anymore. The solution is not as easy as you libs want to try and make it by going after the so called evil employers. There is no questioning someone as to their legal status when they can produce an id. The government doesn’t enforce immigration, then handicaps your ability to decide if a potential employee is legit. Wake up Elias, your bleeding heart is causing major problems for the workers of this county.
As the child of two working class parents, both life-time union members, I understand how businesses have used immigrant labor to depress wages. And it is wrong. As I stated elsewhere, I support legalization of people who have been here for years working and I support their children going to college, but after that I don’t care whether another immigrant is not allowed to enter for the next 100 years. Please don’t give me that silliness about the poor employers not knowing who is documented and who is not. I can think of a dozen places within 5 miles of my own home where employers hiring the undocumented. Do you not accept that the federal government has willingly encouraged people to come through non-enforcement and lack of employer sanctions? This is a non-brainer to me.
Elias,
All of the illegal aliens who did those jobs committed one or more crimes by doing so.
Yes, I guess I am part of the problem….. so what is my solution? I believe I outlined my solution… allow my potential illegal aliens (who I did not ask IDs from) that remodeled my two bathrooms with good quality and timely execution and a low price – a path to legal citizenship and deport the girl I mentioned previously who literally sucks the life out of society and provides nothing more than breeder material for the morally disadvantaged among us.
David’s rationalization notwithstanding, is an example of how corruption creeps into this country. It is caused by greed (or saving a buck in his world).
It was also compromised by others unwillingness to do the work. I will not beg someone to take my money no matter what their background is. And that was a point I made earlier: I find Americans unwilling to do many things. I have also found them lately to be lacking in honesty, responsibility and integrity. Who would you choose to associate with or do business with?
DAVID: You can rationalize all you want; I still feel it is immoral and illegal. Just don’t become derisive and condescending about “illegals” as have others on this blog (you know who you are.) The fact that you “…find Americans unwilling to do many things. I have also found them lately to be lacking in honesty, responsibility and integrity…” only reinforces my argument that we need to overhaul our immigration laws to make it easier for these hard working, honest workers to be “legal.”
I have stated the exact same thing about a legal pathway. While I choose to purchase goods predominantly made by Americans, buying American is a simplistic dogma. I also use some discretion in who I choose to buy a car from based upon quality and price; and my last car was Japanese. Don’t be angry with me because I didn’t choose to ask for IDs. They presented themselves well and have done good quality work for me in the past. Would it have been better for me to judge them upon their appearance and their language and then deny them the opportunity? The Americans I asked never followed up with me. it’s not a rationalization when you are dealing with the realities of people who will and who won’t perform work. It’s simple pragmatism.
DAVID,
Perhaps the Americans did not get back with you because of the low price you were offering for the work performed.
Seems that the most pragmatic thing for you was what you wanted to pay for the work required. That is the case for most people, and that is why the illegals come. They will work for less, and for the most part they will do a good job. You found that to be better for you. After all, the Americans would “probably” have not done it for twice the price! Those were your words in an earlier post. I understand value. In your mind, you are getting good value for what you want accomplished. You used the same people in the past and were satisfied with their work. That rational is nothing different from the chicken farmer/producer, to the fruit/tomato farmer, or home builder.
Are you the reason illegals come to America? Yes you are. Do I hold you accountable for them being here? Not really, unless you drove over the border and brought them here specifically to accomplish your work. But if there is no work in America for them, they will not come.
I didn’t offer a price…. they responded with nothing at all – no schedule, no price, no contact at all. Again, stop making assumptions about things you know nothing about. I will not beg people to respond to me. Keep digging the hole you are in.
David,
I understand. You wanted your two bathrooms remodeled, and you wanted the cheapest price you could get. You knew the people. They had done work for you before. Good work, but for a cheap price. They might be illegally in our country, but what the heck, you didn’t bring them here. And after all, they meet your needs. Hey it happens all of the time. You’re not unlike many Americans. Good work, cheap price, makes for good value.
Please don’t try and make me believe that if the Americans, as you call them, had returned a proposal to you that was twice the price as the illegals, that you would have given them the work. After all, you did say that the illegals had done work for you in the past, and they had done very good work. I understand you desire to keep them in our country. Good work, cheap price, meets your needs, keeps money in your pocket. Works for you.
I am afraid that DAVID and RETIRED are very typical of the followers that abound in Republican/Tea Party circles. On one hand they complain about “illegal” immigrants yet they hire them because it is “…Good work, cheap price, meets your needs, keeps money in your pocket. Works for you.”
They are the problem and not the solution; at least campaign to improve our immigration laws so you can hire these people legally and not under the table. Everyone would benefit with the inclusion of these “illegal” people into the American family.
Proud,
I have not had occasion to hire illegals. I did have my roof replaced by the Amish, and admittedly they did have the best price, and were very well recommended by my neighbors. They did excellent work.
I would not hire anyone who I thought or suspected of being in our country illegally. I do understand why David Porter does. He is looking for the cheapest price regardless of who is offering it. And of course he is angry with the Americans because they never got back with him with a proposal. I guess that is his justification/rationalization for hiring the illegals.
Hey, he should have contacted the Amish. They do great work for a very reasonable price. They are Americans, they will get back with you if you request a proposal from them, and they were very dependable.
Get it through your head: I do not establish price when asking someone to do work. And neither do you. I pay what the contractor tells me it will cost without argument. I had a budget and it either went up or down based upon the people who showed up that wanted to quote the work. You are misquoting me, putting words in my mouth to support your invalid assumption of how I had two bathrooms remodeled at separate times of the year. I am at a loss to understand why you are so dense that you cannot understand that unless of course the answer is simple willful ignorance, and PTBL, I am not member of the Tea Party, they scare me as much as zealots on the left. If you were truly interested in understanding you would ask questions and accept the answers instead of morphing them into something to suit your particular ideological bent.
David: Is that one vote FOR the Dream Act?
Now just to be annoying like PTBL and Retired on here… I’m curious if Retired asked for some ID from the Amish or did he simply go on the basis of how they looked? I didn’t ask for ID. The white caucasian that showed up never came back – I didn’t ask him for ID either. I went with my contractor on the basis they showed up and were interested in doing the work. The white caucasian guy had a really nice truck but that was the last I ever saw of him. No phone call, no checking back with a price. Typical American take it or Leave it attitude. And you wonder why corporate America ships their labor overseas. The work ethic in this country is repulsive to behold… and I have said this before if you will take the time to look at my consistent answers that you have conveniently ignored.
@David A.Porter
I don’t think you as an individual need to check if a residential contractor or his employees are in the country legally.
As a consumer you should check if the are a legitimate business, have liability insurance and if the work they perform requires a license and permits you should ensure they have them.
It’s not like you drove to Baltimore or DC and picked up a van load of day laborers and paid them by the hour without withholding for taxes or submission of a 1099.
PAUL: I must agree with you on this. “As a consumer you should check if the are a legitimate business, have liability insurance and if the work they perform requires a license and permits you should ensure they have them.” If that is done, then the company is legitimate. However, I doubt that David did check on that. Did you get a work permit Dave? Did they have a license? Those are things a consumer has every right to ask as opposed to an ID.
No, no and no. They were referred to me by another person who had done good work for me. Go ahead and pick this apart to the nth degree. The point is I could get no nice licensed white caucasian contractor to give me the time of day. I mentioned this to a co-worker today and he said he had the same experience from so called highly rated licensed contractors who couldn’t bother with a phone call to follow up. Now he’s going to look into the Amish. I’ll say it again for emphasis: the level of professionalism and consideration and customer service of your good Americans is sub par. Again, merit, not their complexion is what caused me to go back to them. Do what you like, it’s over except for your crying.
David,
I have had nothing but great experiences with the Amish. I am sure your co-worker will find them very accommodating.
I’m not sure what you mean in your post talking about “your Americans…”
Are they not “our” Americans, or are you other than an American citizen?
Dave: I also had remodeling done this year and did not have any problems finding licensed contractors to do it. I got seven bids, and got a good price, a work permit and satisfaction. So I know it can be done.
Us white rich Caucasian contractors are a lazy bunch. We only use our white crews on big jobs where we can overcharge. On the little jobs we sub-contract to illegal immigrant crews.
But things are getting bad for some white poor Caucasian contractors and there are some who are impersonating illegal aliens. I know of number who have even learned South American Spanish so they can infiltrate the Spanish speaking illegal alien community.
I have also heard that there are white poor Caucasian contractors who are studying Pennsylvania Dutch so they pretend to be Amish and steal their business too.
The ones pretending to be Amish are easily spotted. They are the ones with long beards, dressed in all black, but driving a big Ford 4X4 and more than willing to show your their drivers license as proof they are not here illegally!
Shouldn’t they have arrived in a horse drawn buggy? Or do you really think every guy that has a long beard and drives a 4×4 is Amish? Would you have hired ZZ Top to do your roof?
David,
You have difficulty reading. Now go back and look at my post, then study the word “pretending”.
And yes, if ZZ comes well recommended, along with his MD Home Improvement License, and references for his roofing work, he might just get the job!!
David A. Porter,
No I did not ask for ID. I had read about them in the local newspaper, and how their home improvement crew (a family actually) were third generation American Amish here in the US. Mr. Stolzfus probably didn’t have a drivers license, although I didn’t ask. He didn’t drive a motor vehicle (although he would ride in one) so I assumed he didn’t have a drivers license. What he did have was a Maryland Home Improvement License, which he was happy to produce.
David, I’m not mad/angry with you because you perhaps hired illegals. I have said in a previous post that I don’t hold you accountable for illegals being here, unless you specifically brought them here. I’m simply pointing out that if people in the US would not hire them, they would not be here. Hopefully people in the US don’t hire them because they are illegal, they hire them because they are inexpensive and for the most part do good work.
LEGAL IMMIGRATION—NOT—illegal immigrants? There is a vast difference.
Now that we have the results from the Iowa Caucuses, we must carefully peruse the issues as seen by the candidates and the ever present innocuous problem of the illegal alien occupation.
Mitt Romney during a campaign stop in Iowa on New Year’s Eve, the former governor stated that he would veto the so-called DREAM Act if he was president. And as governor of Massachusetts, Romney allowed state troopers to be deputized to help with the enforcement of immigration laws. He also opposed attempts to allow illegal aliens to pay the lower in-state tuition rates at state universities. Although he opposes the DREAM Act, Romney seems open to grant legal residency status to those who serve in the U.S. military.
Rick Santorum throughout his time as senator, Santorum consistently opposed bills that would grant amnesty or other legalization benefits for illegal aliens. He voted against a bill that would have produced a guest worker program with a path to US citizenship for certain illegal aliens. In addition he voted in opposition to a bill that would allow certain illegal aliens to participate in social security system. Rick Santorum also voted in support of constructing a fence along our Southern border and doesn’t believe in amnesty, although he opposes deporting the millions of illegal aliens already residing in the U.S.
Ron Paul has a similar attitude towards illegal immigration, that he opposes Amnesty, but does not support deporting the estimated 20 million plus illegal aliens currently squatting in the U.S. Paul introduced a bill that would amend the 14th Amendment to the Constitution so that children born to non-citizens within the U.S. could not attain automatic citizenship.
Rep. Michele Bachmann, has the best stance on illegal immigration, but sadly she has stepped down as a presidential candidate. Although Bachman has left the race, she will still carry the banner of the TEA PARTY. As Senators and House members are regurgitated so to speak for reelection. We must insist that they will follow the laws passed down to us by our founding fathers? Not the Socialist movement by President Obama and his rat patrol, assaulting the sovereign rights of individual states. Every politician should promise to uphold the U.S. Constitution, which is the promise to tens of millions of TEA PARTY members of freedom and liberty. To restrain a government out of control and shrink it; to rewrite the antique current tax code and replacing it with a fair and equitable tax for all and no special advantages for those in power; open up our abundant oil deposits and tell the environmentalists, ‘to put a sock in it.’
Former Speaker Newt Gingrich surprised his audience at a town hall meeting in Naples, Florida in November. He said, “I am not for a path to citizenship for anybody who got here illegally… But I am for a path to legality for those people whose ties run so deeply in America that it would truly be a tragedy to try and rip their family apart.” But Rick Perry, the Texas governor has not only granted illegal aliens to pay the lower, in-state tuition at state colleges and universities, he also proposed legislation that allows them to receive tax-payer supported state education grants. In August the Obama administration began a new policy that subject to the illegal alien apprehended, only those with severe criminal records would be deported. Perry at a campaign stop in New Hampshire told the crowd that under his administration, “I call this a horrific policy, but the Obama administration has a catch and release policy where non-violent illegal aliens are released into the general public today. My policy will be to detain and to deport every illegal alien that we apprehend. That is how we stop that issue.”
Just in California, L.A. County Supervisor Mike Antonovich States the illegal alien cost is $550 million for public safety and nearly $500 million for healthcare, the total cost for illegal immigrants to just Los Angeles County taxpayers exceeds $1.6 billion dollars a year. These costs do not include the hundreds of millions of dollars for schools. It’s a sorrowful situation when a news report states that the Democrats in Sacramento are looking for solutions in reducing their uncontrolled 16 to 20 billion dollar deficit? They should ask Mike Antonovich who knows the answer. He’d tell the simpletons in the state capitol—rescind Los Angeles ‘Special Order 40, stopping police for asking the nationality of persons caught. Remove the stigma of the states ‘Sanctuary State label and prosecute the Governor, Mayor, judge and prosecutors for not obeying immigration enforcement laws. Cross-reference people who apply for public entitlements and implement a mandatory state E-Verify until the ‘Legal Workforce Act’ finds passage in Congress.
Notably is the Liberal press using a different stance to promote the millions of illegal migrants and immigrants already here–saying that it’s good for the economy or asserting these people pay taxes. Yes many do, but they are using either stolen Social Security numbers from innocent citizens, or an IRS number known as an ITIN number. A substantial motivation is they have no alternative, if they want to get a payroll job? Then according to the ‘Heritage Foundation’ the amount of $113 Billion dollars goes to supplementing illegal aliens by hard-pressed taxpayers and every year that amount is rising. The liberal Progressives are also pushing the environmental position, elaborating the issue for no fencing, because it was detrimental to wild life. Of course nothing is said about the crisis situation for ranch owners, who live in fear from the criminals and illegal aliens passing through their land. These parties burglarize their homes, cutting fences and committing other crimes in the four Border States. Equally unappetizing is the mounds of human garbage left in the border regions, with animals caught up in the tangle of plastic bottle holders or other trash.
As released by the IRS, illegal immigrants are returned 4.5 Billion in child/parent tax credits on fraudulent documentation. Little known to most readers is that these foreign invaders send out of the country annually to foreign banks, between 40-46 billion dollars. Yes! They do pay taxes, but it hardly has any impact on the money that is extorted from federal and state taxpayers for children of illegal aliens and drains state treasuries, without compensation. Money going to educate, the massive health care deficit and an overpopulated prison system filled with drug dealers, killers, molesters, pedophiles and a growing proportion of hit and run propagation of drunken drivers; those that are caught.
The Tea Party doesn’t discriminate against any nationality or race, this is an offensive plan by the Democrats to undermine the alternative party who are strictly against illegal immigration, but openly welcomes those who patiently legally wait their turn, in becoming part of the opportunity that is America.
If Obama remains president and reigns supreme for another term, he will rescind the immigration laws that make us safe from drug dealers, drunken hit & run drivers and a whole mess of criminals reaching American soil. The Obama mob led by Eric Holder, Morton, Pelosi and Napolitano have divided American society after not only suing starting with Arizona, but have committed their Liberal agenda of using their mismanaged force to go after Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa county whose duty is to enforce his state law. Obama is complicit in not enforcing immigration laws and now suddenly become slack in deporting nationals. Demand your politician’s co-sponsor the ‘Legal Workforce Bill, known statewide, Mandatory E-Verify. Stop the occupation of our country from other nations, before it’s too late. You can by calling your Senator and Congress person in Congress at 202-224-3121.
Our countries laws are being undermined and our sovereignty trashed by Obama’s mules in the Department of IN-Justice. Join a constitutional-oriented TEA PARTY near you. Make sure Obama becomes a one term president, before his Liberal henchman erodes away the US Constitution. Join the non-profit pro-sovereignty organization. NUMBERSUSA. Be on your guard as illegal aliens have vote and will again in 2012, unless we institute that every voter posses picture ID–which can be authenticated. After the true double fence is built along the border, then at such times a uniform ‘Guest Worker’ program can be enacted by Congress. The TEA PARTY believes in an immigration ‘Point System’ like Europe, Australia and New Zealand, that welcomes highly skilled workers with exception background in Engineering, the Sciences and Mathematics. We must be more selective and enforce the laws as legislated in the 1986 Simpson/Mazzoli bill.
NO COPYRIGHT, EVER! DISTRIBUTE TO ALL HARD WORKING AMERICANS
A perfect example of Tea Party Propaganda Strategies:
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” George Santayana
• Propaganda must always address itself to the broad masses of the people.
• All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed.
• The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses.
• The great majority of a nation’s thought and conduct are ruled by sentiment rather than by sober reasoning.
• This sentiment, however, is not complex, but simple and consistent. It is not highly differentiated, but has only the negative and positive notions of love and hatred, right and wrong, truth and falsehood.
• Do not investigate the truth objectively and, in so far as it is favorable to the other side, present it according to the theoretical rules of justice; yet it must present only that aspect of the truth which is favorable to its own side.
• The receptive powers of the masses are very restricted, and their understanding is feeble. On the other hand, they quickly forget. Such being the case, all effective propaganda must be confined to a few bare essentials and those must be expressed as far as possible in stereotyped formulas. These slogans should be persistently repeated until the very last individual has come to grasp the idea that has been put forward.
• Every change that is made in the subject of a propagandist message must always emphasize the same conclusion. The leading slogan must of course be illustrated in many ways and from several angles, but in the end one must always return to the assertion of the same formula.
PROUD,
The people who adhere to the above principles best is the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
Proud to be Liberal,
Nice try, but you’re not fooling anybody. You simply copied that from the Democrat Party’s book of propaganda and then changed “Democrat” to “Tea Party”. Anyway, I’m sure some people will get a good laugh out of it.
@Proud to be Liberal
Way to go using leftist/progressive National Socializm ideology and pretend it is conservative.
Actually Roberto those are direct quotes that I copied from Mein Kampf. You see, those devices are the source of the Tea Party strategy for winning over the mind of the people.
@Proud to be Liberal
Way to go using leftist/progressive National Socialism ideology and pretend it is conservative.
Poor Paul, the truth hurts!
@Proud to b Liberal
There is no question that Fascizm is and was a progressive social movement. The progressive statists of the early 20th Century would have supported President Obama’s repudiation of Federal Bankruptcy Law and celebrated the takeovers of General Motors and Chrysler. Obama presided over the sale (giveaway) of Chrysler to Fiat, a great beneficiary of Mussolini’s Italian Fascizm.
As liberal’progressives, Democrats have much in common with fascizts, communizts and socializts.
Poor Paul: The only bankrupted argument he can come up with his usual Reductio ad Hitlerum card. Try a new trick Paul, this one is too old. He cannot reconcile himself to the fact that he is the water carrier for billionaires (the 1%) and is screwing himself for their benefit.
@Proud to be Liberal
You are doomed progressive ideologue.
You are trapped by your own liberal dogma and you have assigned your freedom to the state. You would have been right at home in the early 20th century hanging out with Upton Sinclair, Margaret Sanger, Woodrow Wilson, Father Charles Coughlin, Ezra Pond etc…
Dear PTBL, Your posts inspired the exact same thoughts in me. You seem to react with emotion rather than reason. Let all the FACTS provided by our Tea Party friend sink in. Facts can be very stubborn things. I do agree with you on one excellent point. We MUST revamp our current immigration policy, go after employers,enforce laws already on the books. Everyone gasped when Newt made his unexpected immigration suggestions during one of the debates. Instead of having a knee jerk reaction, consider the wisdom in that suggestion. Chances are we may not get much more wisdom from the fellow.
DEAR MOM: Are these the FACTS provided by the tea party you are referring to?
• Kicking off the national Tea Party convention in Nashville Feb. 4, 2010, Tom Tancredo, the one time GOP Congressman, Ripping into Obama, Tancredo announced that the president had won his office because “we do not have a civics, literacy test before people can vote in this country.” He then stated: “People who could not spell the word vote or say it in English put a committed socialist ideologue in the White House — name is Barack Hussein Obama.” He still had to point out that America’s problems are the result of the nation’s “cult of multiculturalism.” Tancredo basically did everything he could to make his racist point short of handing out copies of “Mein Kampf” and carrying a sign reading, “If you ain’t white, you ain’t right.”
• Tea Party darling, Jules Manson, called for the assassination of President Obama and his “monkey children” on a Facebook thread. Manson stated “Assassinate the f—– n—– and his monkey children.”
• Mark Williams, the outgoing chairman of Tea Party Express called the NAACP “professional race baiters” and a “vile racist group.”
• Grady Warren, proponent of the “Teahad” movement – an arm, apparently, of the Tea Party movement – filmed a video indignantly defending the Tea Party against accusations of racism – by liberal use of racism. His “non-racist” propositions include deporting all Muslims, rejecting the “nigras” who call the Tea Party racist, criminalizing the “nigra race pimps,” such as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, and preventing Blacks from voting because “they have not been educated enough to vote” and they “vote skin color.”
• Lloyd Marcus: “Contributing greatly to America’s new “gimme” mindset is President Obama, preaching his gospel of “spreading the wealth around”, confirming blacks victims of racial inequality, promoting entitlements and demonizing achievers.”
-“Conservative educated English speaking blacks are trashed for trying-to-act-white.”
-“The liberal media and the left also appear to hate any suggestion of standards, character and honor.”
-“Bottom line, we tea party patriots MUST take our country back; back from politicians who demonize achievers; back from politicians who promote entitlement to enslave as many voters to government as possible; back from bottom feeding parasites seeking freebies from Obama’s stash; back from those who hate moral standards of any kind; back from those who hate our military; back from those who seek to divide us along racial lines for political gain; back from those who celebrate and sympathize with the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. And most of all, back from Obama who upon entering the White House toured the world apologizing for America’s greatness and has vowed to “fundamentally transform” her. You sir, are unworthy of our extraordinary legacy. And with God’s help, we will take our country back from YOU come November 2012.”
Elias,
David A, Porter thinks he is a big part of the problem. He says that he feels he has hired the illegals. Don’t know what business he is in, but he thinks that he has hired them.
Retiredawhile, he has great company! There are tens of thousands of employers who have done the same. The only serious course of action is for the government to take the steps–immediate confirmation of SS number plus serious employer sanctions, on the one hand, and secondly to legalize those who have been here for years, to resolve the issue permanently.
Elias,
What should be done with David Porter? What kind of sanctions should be leveled against him? Should we put him out of business? Take all of his assets, and put him in jail? One can only guess how low a wage he paid his illegals. Mr. Porter said that the average American would probably not work for twice the wage he was paying. Must have been really low.
They remodeled my bathroom Retired. Get over your invalid assumption and misperception.
Elias,
Amnesties don’t solve the problem of illegal immigration. Amnesties perpetuate the problem of illegal immigration.
Amnesties are not meant to solve the issue of future immigration, an amnesty is meant to solve the problem that 10+ million people have been encourage by our government to come here and work cheaply. Amnesty solves this problem; serious enforcement of the laws will ensure that this problem does not reoccur.
Elias, i sympathize with you and am inclined to agree with you. I am caucasian and also grew up with two working class parents. Mom, in meatpacking for 35 years, Dad a diesel mechanic. I have nothing but the greatest respect for people of all kinds,that do hard work. However, giving blanket amnesty to millions upon millions of people,also includes “chain migration”, where those amnestied may bring in all of their relatives. Not only will this increase the number exponentially who can come to the U.S. but how does one prove they are their relatives? It’s a horrible problem, that both democrats and republicans have only exploited rather than trying to fix. One thing is clear to me, any “fix”, must give priority to the long suffering American citizen, who has supported with their taxes much of the dynamics of illegal immigration, education, medicine, and so many other things. It’s not fair to keep taxing Americans for problems nations like Mexico, for example, keep pushing onto Americans. Mexico is among the nations of the world, far from poor, and could even be classified as rich, because of its vast resources. But the corrupt politicians of that nation, create policies that impoverish their own people, kind of like what is happening in the U.S. Peace, brother.
Bobby, we have a lot of common ground. The government and businesses have encouraged immigrants–authorized and unauthorized–to keep down the wages of US citizens. If 10+ million immigrants had not crossed the border, some businesses would have increased wages (and some would have shipped even more jobs abroad) So I am not saying the immigration was good, but that once people are here for years and have been working, it is unAmerican just to throw them back over the border. The other problems you mentioned can be solved…there is no reason that an immigrant has to be able to bring over other relatives or, if you think perhaps children or parents, then you can use DNA tests. Give people here for a while a chance at citizenship, resolve the issue of chain migration through science and law, be extremely strict about employment verification with legal penalties, and I think the issue can be solved…everyone knows what needs to be done, there just is not the political will to do it.
Elias
We don’t have to send them back. Just take away their jobs and they will return on their own. It’s happening now. With unemployment high and jobs scarce, many illegals are leaving. If we can get the border secured, we can prevent them from returning as illegals. Let them return via the legal process.
I agree with Elias Vlanton, he makes a great case. However let’s go a step further and faster by giving our citizens the right to vote. People are here paying taxes and participating in our society. It shouldn’t matter if people are authorized or unauthorized to be here, they are here and we owe them basic rights and dignity.
Super P,
They already vote, along with all the dead people in Chicago, Baltimore, and Washington DC.
Engineer for the DoD. I don’t have a business. You can stop making an ass of yourself now if you wish.
Honestly,haven’t citizens in Maryland ever heard of the once powerfull state of California? And if they have, don’t they believe in drawing lessons from its inglorious downfall? This once SUPERSTATE, CALIFORNIA, is but a shell of its former self, racked by the highest crime in the nation, the lowest achieving schools(49th) and IS TOTALLY BROKE WITH A 0 CREDIT RATING. It has by far most of the illegal aliens of any state in the union. They drain the state of approximately 20 billion dollars a year. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.
BOBBY: You really must do some research instead of repeating Fox propaganda. California’s problems were caused by Propostion 13. While it holds house values for those on fixed incomes but shifts unequal tax burden to newer home owners and caused a lack of property tax which funds school districts, police and all public services. Without revenue a state is dead in the water and that is what happened to California.
What happened in California is that the majority of the people spoke via the democratic process (not sure of democracy and majority rule has any meaning for you) and they said “We are tired of the ever increased spending by the state government. Stop!”
The state government flipped them the bird and said we will spend what we want to spend on what we want to spend it on.
ALEX R: It is not so simple. That is known as PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM. (BTW RETIRED, I capitalize Latin as I was taught.)
The entire history of the “Democratic” Party has been one of corruption. From civil war reconstruction to FDR, it was a coalition of southern rednecks controlled by the KKK, and northern big city political bosses including Tammany Hall. Now, they’ve found a new constituency: welfare cheats, public-sector unions, and illegal aliens. When you’re founded on corruption, nothing changes except the cast of characters. If we ever deported the 20,000,000 or more illegal aliens, the Democrats just would find a new cesspool of corruption to breed in.
VivaLaMigra: What you say is correct. Except now the GOP has taken on this role. The GOP/Tea Party is “…a coalition of southern rednecks controlled by the KKK and northern big city political bosses (i.e. banks, and insurance, oil, etc)….” The GOP/Tea Party is controlled by these big businesses and billionaires as were the old Democrats. This combination of both plutocracy and oligarchy , called a plutarchy, uses propaganda strategies to dupe uneducated and frightened white people to vote against their own best interests for the benefit of corporations. They understand that ONLY a government, freely elected by the people, can curb their greed and abuses. That is why the tea party is always harping on “less government” and “less regulations”. They do not want the people to awaken and cut off their vast wealth (400 families have more wealth than 150,000,000 regular Americans.) Unfortunately, the results will be a polluted Earth, all our wealth transferred to China and even richer masters. You and your ilk are unwittingly enabling this to happen.
Typical delusional Leftylib talk……how is the current regime’s creation of a myriad of uncontrolled government agencies ruled by Czars “…government freely elected…”
The Left/Democrats are just as funded by big interests as the Republicans. They are the tools of the Communists/Socialists/ One Worlders, who are just as enslaving as any corporations. At least corporations provide jobs so that folks can live. Your cronies would have us all under government control wearing one color outfits, like Mao’s China…living in bare concrete hovels, and driving pies of junk like Russians do….
As for the Dream Act….one dollar saved by an illegal alien is one dollar taken from Americans. If you have illegal parents, and are old enough to go to college….you know exactly what the deal is…you know what is right and wrong.
Actually giving them student loans will be the best way to get rid of them….they will run away to their own country, leaving the American public to pick up the defaulted loans. If Mexico, or where ever wants a bunch of young folks educated in America, why don’t they help them get student visas, and pay for the education?
It’s also morally wrong for us as a nation, to steal these young folks from their Mother Country anyway. Every country needs it’s educated youth to grow and progress as a country. We are denying these other countries of the flower of youth, and it is wrong.
“Under gov control wearing one color outfits, living in concrete hovels, driving piles of junk” sounds very much to me like the military as described to me by those who have left. Yes?
Proud,
While I totally disagree with the Dem/Lib talking points you cut and paste I guess even if I agreed with everything you say (and you very well know I don’t) then I would have to say that given the choice between Obama, Pelosi, Reid and all of their ilk compared to the future you describe I would have to reject Obama, Reid and Pelosi, et al.
All are arrogant,conceited Lib/Dems who will do anything and say anything to get themselves re-elected and advance their agenda. At the same time they have made themselves part of the 1% multi-millionaires (insider trading, anyone?)at the expense of all others while they decide which laws they will enforce and which they will ignore. At least the big business Wall Street and Banker types have a good friend in the Treasury Department under Obama’s fair haired appointment Geithner who just can’t bring himself to get any of his former and future buddies indicted for the current mess. Holder will enfore the laws he is told to enfore and ignore the others which is exactly what this country so desperately needs in an Attorney General (sarcasm dripping). Meanwhile they all have good jobs, have made millions in the service of the government, made great investments with their insider knowledge, live in fine homes, eat well, send their kids to privcate schools and sneer at those of us who have to exist day to day in the economic chaos they refuse to fix.
As I have told you before, they are the ‘more equal animals’ in Mr. Orwell’s prophesy that predicts them so accurately.
ALEX R: You have described Republicans to a T. I am so sorry you do not have the sense to understand how billionaires are using people like you to get richer, pollute the world, and enrich China. If your beliefs didn’t harm us regular Americans so much I’d say you are pathetic, but as it is you are tragic.
Right on Proud! You really got Alex with that one. Unfortunately you forgot to end with “nanny nanny boo boo.” Your arguments lack anything cogent and are a stuck needle. You are so quick to toss pejoratives about TEA party folk and Fox news, but obviously you get the daily talking points fax directly form the DNC. PITIFUL.
DAVE: Your comments are as insightful as one would expect from a ditto head. You are digging your (and our) own grave. Your input is worthless.
Proud,
There are many people in this country that look at all government handouts that are offered to folks so that they become dependent and continue to vote for the entrenched politicians and say “No, thank you. I don’t want that and I don’t want to pay for it. I would prefer to have some freedom instead.”
Then there are those entrenched politicians that want buy their next election by making everyone dependent on them. One of the reasons I am against that is that they want to use my money to pay for it while they amass personal fortunes. You don’t care and are actually happy to support them and what they do. They don’t care for you any more than the Chinese you mention care for me. The difference is that I know it and you don’t.
ALEX R: What I know and you don’t seem to is that “…those entrenched politicians…” you refer to are, in most incidents, Tea Party/GOP politicians that live off the tit of special interest lobbyists and corporations. Now that the Republican Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are people (Citizens United v. FEC ) they can and will pour unlimited funds into elections to support Republican storm troopers. That will corrupt the democratic process where politicians, who once represented the people, will now only represent special interests. (BTW, this is what real Republicans such as Theodore Roosevelt fought against.)
Corporations are not interested in you, the environment, American jobs, and human rights: they are interested in profits. To amass them they will poison the environment, ship our jobs overseas, bankrupt our country and steal public funds. You and your tea party followers just allow this to happen whistling “America the Beautiful” as our once great country becomes an annex to China. The ONLY force able to protect you from the excesses of big corporations is the GOVERNMENT. But you, and your tea party minions, just bend over, as the last man in a human centipede, and willingly accept the excrement of corporation greed as if it were the finest Sirloin. They accept this because they are frightened that the days of the superior white man are ending and can’t abide that thought (oh my God! there is a black man in the White House and stop immigration before they vote Democratic). You may claim you are fighting for your “freedom”, but all you are doing is supporting the 1% while they screw you. Now that is pathetic.
I will, however, admit that big government has its own, built in, problems. But the Democratic process of voting by informed, conscientious voters will counteract this. The key word here is “informed” and that means wide ranging reading of many sources and not getting all one’s information from FOX (the propaganda arm of the Tea Party.)
Proud,
That’s just a bunch of Bovine Scatology. And by the way you probably watch more FOX than most conservatives.
Obama will not run on his record, its terrible. He will run against whoever his opponent is by trying to paint his opponent as a bigger loser than he is. Obama is like the coach of a team that consistently losses by 30 points per game over a period of four years, but wants you to believe that if you replace him with a new coach, you will lose by 50 points per game. Wow, what a message Obama has!
If you are better off today than you were four years ago, then put Obama back in office. If you are not better off today than four years ago, then its time to look for a new leader, especially given Obama’s record.
RETIRED: I know that the truth hurts but you and your ilk are the reigning champions of “Bovine Scatology” if you do not realize we are much better off today than we were under the disastrous leadership of the last president and the Republicans. Name one thing the last administration did that improved life in these United States. But you seem to be the quintessential ditto head that believes whatever is fed to him by Fox and corporations.
To suggest that someone votes primarily because of the handouts they receive from the government is absurd. First, when someone is that irresponsible what makes you think they even vote at all? Second, I watched people at Yuma Test Center talk about how they were going to vote Republican to keep their jobs. Crusader was the biggest program we had at the time – and when Dick and his pet chimp arrived they cancelled Crusader. Imagine the disappointment from the people that vote on the basis of personal needs. In 2008 I was lectured by a co-worker that his impression of my choice would lead to the layoff of him and his fellow contractors. I told him his views were inappropriate – and if I chose to do so I could have probably had him disciplined for being such a tactless idiot. I do not vote my pocket book, I vote for what I believe is in the best interest of the country. Anything else is simply selfish.
David,
I will be voting to significantly reduce handouts from government. I hope you and many others will do the same. Government handouts to individuals have significantly increased the past three years, if I am wrong about that, then prove me wrong.
RETIRED: Allow me to remind you what your concept of Republican/Tea Party politics gave us: the financial meltdown we are just now beginning to recover from. I recently read a book by Niall Ferguson entitled Civilization where he stated: “. p. xvii The major components of the international financial system had been disastrously weakened by excessive short-term indebtedness on the balance sheets of banks, grossly mispriced and literally overrated mortgage-backed securities and other structural financial products, excessively lax monetary policy on the part of the Federal Reserve, a politically engineered housing bubble and, finally, the unrestrained selling of bogus insurance policies (known as derivatives), offering fake protection against unknowable uncertainties, as opposed to quantifiable risks.”
You are advocating more of the same. Why would you perpetuate 1% of the population paying less than ½ of the tax rate most middleclass Americans pay? The billionaires and mega-corporations are the only one who benefits from “handouts from government.” However, I do not have much hope that anyone can prove anything to you as you have swallowed FOX kit and caboodle.
RETIRED: BTW I am still waiting for you to tell us one thing the last administration did that improved life in these United States.
PROUD,
I don’t watch FOX very often, as you seem to do. You must watch it a lot since you accuse anyone who has a different view than yours of swallowing anything said on FOX. If you don’t watch it often, then you don’t have much credibility when accusing others of getting their opinions from FOX. You also call them names such as Ditto Heads, etc., if they do not fall right inline with the BS you are always spouting.
You have no idea what my concept of politics is. What you do know is that I am for a change in who holds the office of president of the US. You have no idea who I support. All you know is that I don’t fully support your ideas, and that upsets you. You assume that just because I do not support the reelection of Obama, that I somehow supported Bush. You can’t find a single post of mine wherein I am supporting Bush.
I do not intend to vote for someone who is trying to make people believe that the only reason they don’t have millions or billions is because those who already do are crapping on them. Any President of mine who is trying to create class warfare in America is not worthy of my vote. I don’t have millions, but I sure as hell don’t blame others for that.
RETIRED: In other words you cannot provide a single example of how the Republicans improved life in this country. That does not surprise me. Most Tea Party/Republicans can never furnish hard facts and reasoned opinions for their talking points. That does not surprise either. Their beliefs are usually borne by emotions conceived in fear or hate. Your use of the term “class warfare” is an example of this strategy that the right wing uses to recruit their followers. Yes, I do know “what my (your) concept of politics is.” They are blatant and all too obvious. At least I am honest that I am PROUD TO BE LIBERAL.
Proud is Obama running against President Bush again?
Obama certainly has done some things, unfortunately for our country they are negatives such as Obamacare, increased unemployment and unprecedented massive increases in deficits and national debt, a failed economic policy, a failed energy policy, failed foreign policy and an increase in entitlement transfer payments.
Obama did do a good job and extend the Bush tax cuts.
PROUD,
I don’t have talking points that I repeat. Name what my talking points are? I’m not satisfied with the current direction of our country. I intend to vote for a change in leadership, unless between now and Nov. 2012, something or someone is able to change my mind. Name calling, and yelling by you and others like you will not be the enabling force to change my mind.
You keep demanding that I provide anything that Republicans have done which made our country better. OK, here are some things I think made our country better, done by Republicans:
Freed the slaves
Transcontinental Railroad
14th Amendment guaranteeing Due Process
15th Amendment granting African Americans the right to vote
Passed the Civil Rights Act of 1957
Established Federal Highway System (proposed by and signed into law by Eisenhower)
Repealed FDRs orders that Japanese Americans could be held, without habeas corpus in internment camps
In my opinion, those things among many other accomplishments by Republicans and Democrats alike have improved life in the United States of America. I am not continually traveling along a one way street as you seem to be.
You tout the name you use here, “Proud to be Liberal” as some sort flag you have wrapped yourself in. In my opinion, all it really says about you is that you have a closed mind.
RETIED: At least you have proven that Republicans have not improved this country IN OUR LIFETIME.
PORTER: Just because you think these policies have failed, does not, in fact, prove they have. Nice try though. BTW the President may not be running against Bush (not that he ever has) but is running against the policies of the GOP/Tea Party which, and I hate to repeat myself, only benefit the 1% and not you nor me.
Proud to be Liberal you can proudly where your Occupy Wall Street asshat if you like, but it won’t make your bankrupt ideology any less false.
You preach an anti-liberty big government doctrine of hatred, envy, racial discord, wealth redistribution and shared misery. Thankfully most Americans have already rejected your screed.
PROUD,
Don’t be to sure there young fella. I was around for some of those accomplishments. That’s why I use the handle Retiredawhile.
So you’re a youngster, who grew up in the I’m entitled, not responsible or accountable for anything, its everyone’s fault but mine era. Many of your contemporaries have your thought process. Hard for you to understand why us oldies don’t want to just roll over and give you what we have earned. Well, go have yourself another temper tantrum, and scream and shout, it will make you feel better!
RETIRED: You again make assumption devoid of facts. I am probably older that you at nearly 70. I am willing to share what I have earned, which is substantial, with the next generation just as my elders were willing to share it with my generation. That is called selflessness, a concept that seems to have alluded you.
PORTER: Try presenting a logical, reasoned argument rather than your usual bullshit for a change. And for your information most Americans have accepted my “screed.”
PROUD,
If you are really almost 70, then the Civil Rights Act of 1957, the Federal Highway System Act, and the repeal of FDRs internment of Japanese in our country, all happened in your lifetime. I take it your position is those accomplishments by Republicans did not improve life in America.
RETIRED: Don’t play stupid (and I’m giving you the benefit of doubt on that) but you know I’m referring to the last administration. Now name something the Bush administration did that improved our life.
PROUD,
Part D, Medicare Prescription Drug Plan. And why are you up so late?
RETIRED: The part d Medicare prescription drug plan is one of the worst ideas for seniors and one of the best for big drug companies. Haven’t you ever heard of The donut hole: “Once your annual drug costs exceed $2,840 in 2011, you will get a 50 percent discount on your plan’s covered brand-name prescription drugs. By the design of the program, the federal government is not permitted to negotiate prices of drugs with the drug companies, as federal agencies do in other programs. The Department of Veterans Affairs, which is allowed to negotiate drug prices and establish a formulary, pays 58% less for drugs, on average, than Medicare Part D.”
That costs us seniors billions while drug companies reap windfall profits. Here is an example of how this came to be: “President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and Republican members of Congress dined Wednesday with their most important donors. They netted in excess of $30 million for the party’s congressional campaign committees. Pharmaceutical companies were among the biggest underwriters of the gala….” (ABC News)
Got any other “benefits” the GOP gave us as opposed to big business?
I don’t need much sleep at my age.
PROUD,
Why didn’t Obama and the veto proof congress he had in the two first years of his administration get rid of part D if it is not a good deal?
It was not a veto proof majority. It was a super majority and did not last 2 years but less than that.
RETIRED: Don’t try to shift the blame for the absence of policies or legislation favorable to the Middle Class on to Democrats. It was, and is, the GOP/Tea Party that consistently works for billionaires, corporations and the 1% at the disadvantage of us middle class blokes.
All the advantages that you did mention were accomplished by moderate Republicans who voted for the benefit of the country as a whole. That is quite unlike the Tea Party Republicans of today who would, and have, destroyed the middle class for the benefit of their masters. If you don’t believe this one need only to listen to the crap coming out the would-be Republican candidates. A bigger group of disjointed yahoos have never run for office in these United States. It would be the end of life as we know if any of them would take the highest office in the land: anyone who would vote for any of them is uninformed.
PROUD,
No one is shifting any blame. I asked a question. If Medicare Part D, is such a bad deal for millions of senior Americans, as you say it is, then why didn’t Obama and the Democrat controlled congress get rid of it? Even Obama and the Democrats realized it was a great program for seniors, and made it even better by reducing the doughnut hole costs.
The real “Dream Act” will be when this socialist has been defeated. Just when you thought a President couldn’t be any more out of touch with reasonable thinking Americans-along comes this bone head. In case there’s any doubt, I STRONGLY disagree with his policies. He has done more to destroy America in three years than that amiable dunce Carter could have ever thought of. We will, using the rule of law, work to send him back to the stink-hole of politics that he crawled out of—Chicago. Isn’t the “Dream Act” prejudiced against white anglo saxon Americans, btw?
He may be out of touch with you but I suspect you are actually out of touch with him.
@ Retired. And while I am an American, Eagle Scout with three palms and 36 Merit Badges and all, DoD Engineer and lover of all things Grumman, and a fierce moderate who manages to tick off the left and the right when I mention the absurdities that occur here, I do try to distance myself from the other ones who enjoy the label but cannot manage to live up to the concept. Please review the person I suggested we deport somewhere else.
David,
I had no idea. No wonder you are always correct, and everyone else, both left and right, are always wrong. And for those who enjoy the label but can’t live up to the concept, I bet you give them a good piece of your mind, just before you distance yourself from them.
Everyone who is not like you must be one of those lazy, worthless, white nice Americans you speak about in one of your previous posts. I am beginning to see why they never got back with you for the work you wanted done. They could probably see that you were an Eagle Scout, with multiple merit badges, and a DOD Engineer. They felt you could do the job yourself, you didn’t need them.
PTBL, you should have your own site where you can spew your worthless propaganda. You can whittle the facts to fit every misguided socialist idea you support. You can use Latin all day, you know it is similar to socialism, it is obsolete. Maybe, next year for Christmas, we can take up a collection and buy you a copy of Utopia, I know you would like it. I could also send to you a free a bibliography of objective political and economic information. This way you won’t have to rely on the biased media.
MONSTER: I don’t “…rely on the biased media” as I don’t depend on Fox but I know you do. Get back to me when you have something intelligent to say.
@Proud to be Liberal
It’s quite obvious you are an unhinged progressive/liberal statist who is economically and financially illiterate and you’d like nothing more than to firmly establish a Western European Socialist system in America.
PORTER: …and it is just as obvious that you are naive and cannot see beyond the clap-trap propaganda on Fox. Why can’t any of you tea partiers give me an example of how Bush and crew improved middleclass life?
PTBL, having something intelligent to say has not stopped you from responding over and over with the same hackneyed expressions. You remind me of an old hippy who repeats himself with the same misguided rationale, and doesn’t really care what the facts are. In fact, when is the reunion for Woodstock?
How is Latin similar to Socialism?
CDEV, only in that socialism and Latin are both obsolete. You aren’t too bright are you? Are you PTBL or just a friend?
My goodness people.
All entities, whether governments, corporations, or individuals, generally act in their own self-interest primarily with a sense of immediacy.
You are delluded if you beleive that businesses make most of their decisions based on anything other than maximizing profit, or that individuals (liberal or conservative) will vote any other way than what they pocket tells them.
I know a good many “Republicans” who have benefited from food stamps or energy assistance or unemployment programs in the last few years because they were out of work through no fault of their own. Nobody should be surprised when they suddently don’t feel motivated to go out and support Ron Paul et al who want to cut government programs by 25%.
You can call that hypocritical possibly, but I don’t think you blame them for looking out for their family and wanting to keep food on the table for their house.
I totally understand the drive to destroy big government. I get it, I really do, I have always had a distate for it and have a personal belief that the bigger anything gets the worse it becomes, but I just don’t believe that people are going to rush out and vote Republican when their wallets are telling them otherwise.
Point fingers whatever way suits your personal ideology, but be realistic and be prepared to point the finger down the aisle once in a while rather than simply across it.
Well said.
PROUD,
Remind again please how many of the Wall Street executives and mortgage bankers who have been the main cause of our current economic woes have been indicted by the Obama Administration. I am scratching my head to remember them. He was fast on the trigger to condemn the Cambridge police department and ended up shooting himself in the foot. But I am still struggling to remember how many indictments and convictions we have had under his administration. Oh, yes, now I remember. NONE.
Obama, Geithner and Holder are the best friends they have. Business as usual, bonuses as usual. Insider trading, anyone? Proud, perhaps you recall how much Pelosi made on those inside deals that are illegal for you and for me. And how many companies in her district that she secured an exemtion from Obamacare. And, yes, I know it was not just her. She is just the poster child for hyprocisy.
ALEX R: You mean the REPUBLICAN “Wall Street executives and mortgage bankers who have been the main cause of our current economic woes?” Don’t worry we will get them before 2016.
Proud,
Republican or Democrat. I don’t care a fig. No, you won’t ‘get them’. Not now and not before 2016. The window is closed. See, Proud, I do worry. I worry that the behavior of the current Democratic administration tells me a far, far different story than what they say and what you say. I suppose, based on the lack of names in your response, that your answer to my question is that NONE of them have been indicted or convicted. Very true. Well, Proud, since Obama and Holder and Geithner are going to let them skate then you need to stop trying to tell me how great the Libs are. Shame on them and double shame on you for supporting them. I wouldn’t be proud to be associated with any of them. It’s bad enough to have committed the crimes. It is even worse to wink and nod and bless the crimes and the criminals when you have been elected to do something about it.
RETIRED: Your answer has made two things obvious: You did not read CDEV’s post where he explained why Republicans would kill reform of this money cow for pharmacy companies; and you are either too young for Medicare or you have private insurance if you think Part D “…was a great program for seniors.” Why would you think that paying 58% MORE for drugs is a good thing?
You still have not been able to name anything the Bush administration has done that has improved the life of a middle class family. Remember, perks for big business and billionaires do not count.
PROUD,
And you still have not answered why Obama, and his Democrat controlled congress made no attempt to terminate the part D program, and in fact have enhanced the program by reducing costs associated with the doughnut hole aspect of the program. Why would Obama and the Democrats continue a program that is as bad for everyone as you say. Is Obama in bed with the drug companies?
If you think the part D program is so bad for seniors, try taking it away and see what they have to say about it!
RETIRED: Your answer has made two things obvious: You did not read CDEV’s post where he explained why Republicans would kill reform of this money cow for pharmacy companies; and you are either too young for Medicare or you have private insurance if you think Part D “…was a great program for seniors.” Why would you think that paying 58% MORE for drugs is a good?
You still have not been able to name anything the Bush administration has done that has improved the life of a middle class family. Remember, perks for big business and billionaires do not count.
PROUD,
PROUD,
There are over 30 million seniors who have willingly enrolled in the Medicare Part D program. They don’t agree with you that the program is not a good deal for people.
Obama had a Democrat super majority when he was elected. You have not answered my question about why Obama did not terminate the program if it was such a bad program. Not only did Obama think it was a good program, he took action to enhance the donut hole costs for program participants.
RETIREDAWHILE,
Proud isn’t ignoring you. He is smart enough to know when the folks he supports are caught in the big lie. What is the big lie? It is when the Dem/Libs pretend that they care for a constuency group and talk like they care but their actions tell a different story. Their favorite constuency group is themselves. Followed closely by whatever group is gulible enough to be ‘bought’ by sweet talking political blandishments and handouts of money and favors. You have already caught on. Don’t listen to what they say, watch what they do.
What did the Bush administration do that was good for a middle class family? Why the TARP bailout! How do I know that? Why Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama and Joe Biden told me so when they helped push it down my throat and applauded when they passed it and Bush signed it rather then vetoing it. Based on those people endorsing it I’m sure it must have been good for me and I thank them for their support and I thank Bush for signing it and making my life so much better. What baloney!
More Kool Aid, Proud?
ALEX R: Are you serious? You are trying to blame Democrats for BUSH’s TARP. The one he signed into law with all the GOP/Tea Party support. Don’t talk to me about Kool-aid; it is a Tea Party drink. You people will never acknowledge that the Republicans sold you down the river to benefit the 1%. But just remember this: VERITAS VOS LIBERABIT. However, you will need to learn it first and it is not found on Fox.
Proud,
Blame the Democrats for TARP? Heck, no, I don’t ‘blame’ them. I APPLAUD their efforts to get it passed and to stand before the TV cameras smiling and celebrating their victory. I applaud their press statements and their interviews and their web site postings that explain in detail how they all saved America. It was certainly a joint effort with their Republican colleagues and they all went to great lengths to elbow each other out of the way to get in to the spotlight and take their full share of the glory. I heard it on NPR and saw it on public television as well as ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, and C-SPAN. I read it in the Baltimore Sun. All are great bastions of conservative thought, are they not? Even Keith Olbermann was slobbering on himself saying what a great thing it was. You remember good old Keith? I don’t recall he was a fan of Bush but he certainly liked the TARP bailout so maybe he was. I’m sorry you thought TARP was a bad idea because it kind of puts you at odds with all of your Dem/Lib heroes. Nancy pushed it thru the House. Harry pushed it thru the Senate. Obama and Biden spoke in favor of it. It was such a hit that Obama even stole the idea and did it again early in his presidency. What is with you, Proud? You seem to be the only one out of step here. Well, I did hear that maybe some folks on Fox did have some serious reservations about it. Not sure because I don’t watch Fox. Why goodness, gracious me. Proud and Fox both against TARP. Better not let your Dem/Lib friends find out you have been fooling around on the sly with the enemy.
The funniest and saddest thing I have read here in months is you, Proud, trying to tell me TARP was a Bush idea and no one in the Dem/Libs had anything to do with it. You might want to read the Congressional Record and see the glowing remarks from your heroes in support of it even after they did their ‘revise and extend’ thing.
ALEX R: So your point would be…? Or is this just an excuse for your comedic musings. You (and Retired) really need to get a handle on how laws are passed and why. The Senate, unless a party has a 60 member majority (which we have not had), can pretty much control legislation with just the hint of a filibuster. The President can veto a law. Therefore, the Republican President signed TARP and Democrats signed on to it. It was felt by everyone that without it, the mess that Republicans caused would sink the country. I don’t think they had a choice and I agree that was the best of a bad situation.
However, that being said, it was largely the Republicans, with their love for all things business, which got us into this mess by deregulation (and I will acknowledge Clinton’s role in this.) Moreover, after the government saved their asses, they returned the favor by either using that money for bonuses, buying up competition, sitting on it or shipping it offshore: they did not use it to create more jobs. Now all one hears from Republicans, and I use that term loosely as they are not real Republicans but tea baggers, is JOBS, JOBS and more JOBS (and I don’t mean Steve.)
You see ALEX R it is only the government that can protect us from the greed of big business. That is the Ying and Yan of American life. We have to have a balance between the two. Big business cannot regulate itself, as has been done under the Republicans, nor can the government run businesses: each to its own.
Lastly, Alex you must not put words into my mouth in order to make your argument: that is called a STRAW MAN fallacy. You also must stop using PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM arguments to make your points as that does not work well. I am on to your little tricks. What I can’t understand, though, is why you support the very people who consistently work against your best interests.
I think we have exhausted this topic for now Folks!
Alex R. 1 and Proud to be Liberal 0…game over.
We are wining and will prevail through the plan laid out by Rich Cloward and Fran Piven in 1966.
“The ultimate objective of this strategy—to wipe out poverty by establishing a guaranteed annual income—will be questioned by some. Because the ideal of individual social and economic mobility has deep roots, even activists seem reluctant to call for national programs to eliminate poverty by the outright redistribution of income.”