Compared to five years ago, the number of Harford County public high school students who took at least one Advanced Placement exam shot up by 377 students in 2011 to a total of 1,525 students, an increase of nearly 33%. The increase over the five-year span came as the population of potential AP test-takers, students in grades 10 through 12, declined by 1% to approximately 8,780 students. The average number of AP tests taken per student remained steady at 1.5 tests per student.
AP exams are offered in a variety of subjects and provide an indication of college readiness, with some colleges accepting passing scores for college credit. The percentage of AP exams with passing scores dropped four points in HCPS, from 64.5% in 2007 to 60.5% in 2011, a 6% decrease.
Five-Year AP Exam Results: 2007 to 2011
The table below, provided to The Dagger upon request from HCPS, shows the number of exams given in eighteen different AP subjects every year since 2007, along with the percentage of exams earning passing scores. AP exams are graded on a five-point scale, with a grade of 3 or higher generally considered passing. Data for 2011 also include the national passing rate in each subject.
AP Exam Results for 2011
Among the AP subjects with at least 99 test takers in 2011, the highest percentage of exams with passing scores were in English Language (87.2%), Statistics (74.3%) and Psychology (72.6%) and English Literature (67.9%). The lowest passing rates were in Biology (33.3%), World History (41.4%), U.S. History (47.2%) and Calculus AB (54.8%). Fewer than 99 exams were taken in Chemistry, Physics, Computer Science, Environmental Science, Calculus BC, Government & Politics, Spanish, French, German, Art, Music Theory and Human Geography.
Also in 2011, the number of AP exams taken was flat compared to the previous year, but a total of 1,525 students took an AP exam in at least one subject, an increase of 98 students over last year, according to an earlier press release from Harford County Public Schools.
Disparities Among HCPS High Schools in Number of AP Subjects Offered in 2011
AP exams in three subjects, English Literature, Calculus AB and U.S. History, were taken by students in all ten Harford County public high schools in 2011, but not all schools offered AP exams in the same number of subjects.
Among the factors influencing AP offerings are the number of AP teachers within HCPS, the distribution of such teachers among schools and the student demand within schools.
Of the 21 AP subject exams taken by HCPS students in 2011, the least number of subjects was offered at Harford Technical High School, where students took exams in four subjects. Harford Tech is a magnet high school for career/technical education that admits county students based on academic record. After Harford Tech, exams in the least number of AP subjects were offered at Joppatowne and Havre de Grace, where students took exams in seven and nine subjects, respectively. The greatest number of AP subjects was offered at C. Milton Wright (18) Aberdeen (17), Bel Air (17) and Fallston (16).
2011 School-by-School AP Performance By Subject
On a scoring scale of 1 to 5, with a score of 3 considered passing, performance in 2011 ran the gamut in HCPS, with some schools showing 100% of exams in some subjects earning passing scores and others showing zero. AP results for 2011 are broken down by school and by subject area in the tables below. All data was provided to The Dagger upon request from HCPS:
The data provided by HCPS is incomplete. In some schools the seat time for AP courses is double the seat time in other schools. One such example is chemistry where in some schools the same set of students enrol in another related course, say Biochemistry on alternating days. This information was privately confirmed to me by an administrator several months ago. For example the student may have AP Chem on A days and then Biochemistry on B days. During the year as the exam approaches, this allows the teachers to prepare for the AP test in the “Biochemistry” course. This is great for kids who love chemistry and great for public relations when the scores are released, but when the results are listed as they are above and incomplete picture is provided.I would encourage the author of this article to dig a little deeper to determine which schools are encouraging this practice and in which other courses besides AP chemistry.
At my daughter’s private school, they finished the curriculum in the first three quarters and spent the fourth quarter prepping for the test. Additionally, she took honors physics junior year and then took AP Physics senior year continuing with the same textbook. I don’t see how that is any different than doubling up with chemistry and biochemistry. At her school and my son’s private school (different schools), you have to be recommended for AP classes. You have almost no disinterested kids in the top classes and the scores reflect that.
However, when you look at those ridiculous education rankings, they use number of kids taking AP tests as part of the ranking. Using that for ranking only benefits high-income states like Maryland.
TP – Please help me understand – I think you saying that class time in Biochemistry is being used to prep for the Chemistry AP exam. Is there overlap between these two subjects?
Yes, my evidence supports the assertion that in some of our high schools a biochemistry class is being used to provide additional seat time to AP chemistry. A former AP chemistry teacher, now retired, confirmed privately to me that he/she began this procedure at one of the high schools sometime around 2006-2007. The effect on scores was, of course, very good. It is not clear whether that same practice continues at that school since that teacher has now retired and a new principal has been appointed. However, a HCPS administrator confirmed to me privately that there was a “difference in seat time” for AP chemistry in some of our schools.
In the last two years, the Dagger has published a report on AP scores including results on AP tests at individual schools. The report published which included the 2008-2009 results showed that one of the high schools posted an overwhelming advantage in AP chemistry scores. It was almost a “give away” that something was different there. My suspicions about this were confirmed last summer when a college student who is an alumni of this school informed me that she in fact had AP chemistry on one day and that the “same class” was enrolled in Biochemistry the alternate (A/B) day and that class time in fact was used in the Biochemistry class to supply additional time for the AP chemistry content, which is overwhelming. That is when I called the administrator asking for a clarification. He would not provide any other information besides the fact that he confirmed a “difference in seat time in AP chemistry” in some schools.
I do not particularly find fault with this procedure. I think it is a great opportunity for the small number of students who actually love chemistry beyond the public relations advantage it brings to the school or the school system. I find fault with the fact that HCPS allowed this data to be provided to you for publication without being truthful about the fact that there was a difference in seat time allowed in different schools. Furthermore, it raises the chorous of those who continue to sing the song “blame the teacher at that school” for the lesser scores when that teacher in fact has had an unfair advantage in the time allowed to actually teach the content.
The block schedule was implemented about five years ago. It meant that students would need to take 32 classes to fill out four years versus 28 classes with the prior schedule (this is for Bel Air’s seven class schedule). Schools were not prepared with enough classes to fill that many class spots with relevant classes, so students took (and still take) things like library helper or English department helper to fill out their schedules. Adding biochem along with AP Chem is brilliant in my mind. I would rather have my kid doubling up on a science–regardless of the motivation–than helping out in the library to kill time during the day.
I would also argue that time spent on these classes varies enormously from school to school. Schools that run on a modular schedule are able to add in extra mods for classes that call for it. I say good for [assuming it is] C. Milton Wright for doing something that benefits students. Such a rare idea in HCPS.
Not sure I understand the issue here. Why would it be bad that AP students are getting extra teaching time on a subject? In fact, typically the smart kids don’t get the extra help because the focus needs be on the students at risk of being left behind.
Sounds to me like an administrator finally figured out that the block schedule doesn’t give sufficient time to prepared students to pass AP tests. So they use additional time. Yes I can see how a biochem class could be used to add material on organic chemistry that the chem teacher didn’t have time to cover. I don’t see this as being different from schools that have extra tutoring time for AP classes. The AP chem test is notoriously difficult, sound like a good use of resources to me.
The problem with your argument is that any of this would have to be done “under the table”. I’d be surprised if anywhere in the biochem curriculum guide there was a section on preparation for the AP Chemistry test. If this is being done at one school and not at all schools, then it adds bias to the data that the school system is so proud of.
My concern is why there is such a big self-contratulations for raising the number of people who take the test when the pass rate is falling. To me, that data says that we are encouraging students to take the test that we as teachers know are not prepared for it. My daughter took three AP classes in high school, and in two of the three classes she was told that if she took the AP exam she was exempt the final exam even though she would not have scores back until well after school ended.
I can tell you many counties do this. PG has schools at which AP science classes take an extra lab course. The AP Bio class and Bio lab course have the same enrolled students back to back so they get 2 credits for the class and meet 90 minutes a day.
How many students take the class but dont take the test. It looks like a lot of students are not taking the exams? Surely these schools are not allowing a class of 5 to run at the school just to say they offer x number of ap classes. I think we need to see the enrollment numbers in the class and then compare that with the test scores to judge the effectiveness of each program.
Many students take the classes with no plan to take the test. The class jacks up their GPA. An A equals 5 points on a 4 point scale, a B equals 4points, and on and on.
My child at Aberdeen took 4 AP classes last year as a junior-Calc A/B, US history, Eng language and lit, and pysch. An A student in all those classes, he received a 5,4 and 4 on the AP tests, respectively, but did not take the pysch test. Why? Because even with a 100% in the class he said he felt he would have only gotten a 1 on the AP test, as the teacher did not prepare them at all. Not worth the $80 to fail the test.
This is where the superintendent and central office put spin on the numbers. They should post all the numbers, including the numbers of those students in each class that do not take the test. A lot of times that will be more than half the class. Not a very good number which I am sure the superintendent does not want published. Especially since he has made AP “enrollment” numbers such an important part of his resume just like his soon to be departed counterpart in Baltimore County.
THANK YOU once again for posting these scores. After just looking at the top chart, it is shocking to see that just 10 students in all of Harford County passed an AP language test (Spanish) and only 9 passed physics. This is pitiful.
How many schools offer AP physics? Some schools don’t!
I am not sure what your point is, CDEV, but let me count that for you. It looks as though five schools offer AP Physics. I stand by my statement that it is sad that only 9 kids passed the test in physics. Even if the five schools had 10 kids in each class, it seems as though more students would pass the test.
My point is that at many schools they do not offer the class. SO the one or two kids there who could take and handle it get sterred to other things. I also agree part of the problem is AP courses are getting watered down with average kids who do not belong there. Further making it worse is when the teacher is presured to give out higher grades because “my kid always gets A’s and B’s”
The five schools who do offer physics do a poor job (and foreign language education is shameful). And when you have a school that has between 200 and 400 in a class, there are many kids who are bright enough to handle physics, but the word gets out quick that the classes are poorly taught and we see scores like those published above.
As a teacher one important thing to realize is now they push as many kids possible into these classes! I’d say at least 25% of the kids taking these classes are more suited for average placement but it makes people “look good” to say things like “we have 20% of our students in AP classes” even though they don’t belong there.
Just saying…
Think everyone knows that this is a farce but it appears that it is benefiting adults more than students. Specifically, I have heard that we have principals and people from school system going to China subsidized by College Board. Guess we wil find out. I bet those are the schools where unprepared and unqualified kids are pushed to take AP even though they shouldn’t be. I am not one of those parents who think all kids are equal either. I have 2 kids in college – one pursuing engineering and one nursing. My one child took an AP test and got a 1. It took 3 months for the principal at Patterson Mill to give that information to parents after repeated requests. I wouldn’t be surprised if he is one of the people going and parents should be outraged.
Not from Here: Son took AP Physics and the teacher had no interest in teaching the class. He gave extra credit for bringing in used printer cartridges. I blame the principal and his boss for not assuring that this person did his job. Son goes onto College Park and many of the Physics professors are old school/hard nosed teachers. Many of the kids fail physics (son was going to be one of those except he dropped it) but he did get an A in the class here because he brought in printer cartrdiges. We could have a whole discussion about kids who went to school here and got great grades and went onto academically rigorous majors/schools and found out they were woefully unprepared. This AP stuff helps the school system deflect attention away from that very fact.
“We could have a whole discussion about kids who went to school here and got great grades and went onto academically rigorous majors/schools and found out they were woefully unprepared.”
And thank you for reminding me again why I took my kids out of HCPS. And only this year left to pay high school tuition.
We have a system in this country were perception has been and is everything. We can’t offend parents or fail students. The problem is other countries weed out the less prepared students, and in a global economy, we are becoming less and less competitive. Less capable students force the bar to be lowered, and our best and brightest are not challenged. We use “social promotion” as our rationale for moving students to the next level. The result is the vast majority of students are not prepared for much of anything at the end of 12 or more years of taxpayer funded education. We need to prepare all students for careers. However, hard work, talent, skill, and competition should determine who moves on to the next level, and who gets off the education train at each stop. This country produces world class athletes using this very same system. Public education has become an entitlement. If you don’t pay for it directly, you don’t value it properly. Then, give each parent their child’s share of the educational funding, and let them make the choice as to where it will be spent. It is called competition and history has shown it produces pretty good results for both the consumer and country.
I think you will find that each childs share of funding is actually less then a top private school education cost. Who will make up the difference and what do you do with the kids who can not afford to make up that difference out of pocket?
@Cdev
You hate any solution that’s free market capitalism.
Steve Jobs to Obama –
Education is “crippled by union work rules, until the teachers’ unions were broken, there was almost no hope for education reform.” Jobs proposed allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit, that schools stay open until 6 p.m. and that they be open 11 months a year.
Conservative Dem
I did not say taxpayers should pay for private school nor would I advocate this. These same students that you refer to do not attend private school now. Private schools should remain private and not taxpayer funded. I attended both private and public schools. However, there needs to be some element of school choice for all. Remember, life is not a Disney movie where lions and zebra hang out together and chat about what the gazelle is doing. Evolution rewards the successful designs in nature and makes the ecosystem stronger. We should reward those students who want to work hard by providing them with opportunities and a high quality learning environment free of the distractions from those who lack the desire and motivation to learn.
Proud Dem I don’t dislike the free market coapitalism concepts. WHat I think most do not realize is that vouchers will not work if you give every kid the PPE because most normal kids require far less then that number. SO some say fine give them the smaller number. That smaller number is not going to get you a Gillman, LBA or MDSA education. It might equal 1/4th. IF you say just privitize all education then you will have new issues with a lack of seats to educate all kids which is provided for in the State Constitution!
Decoy that I can agree with. Maybe magnet programs at all schools.
What’s wrong with education is unions and Cdevers who think more bureaucracy is the answer.
Conservative dem,
I never said more bureucracy was the answer. Simply that this hairbrained notion of private schools for all will not work. It will cost taxpayers more in the long run.
Cdev all you want to do is protect the status quo of union monopoly of the education system. The unions are the problem and you are against competition. We need to give people school choice with vouchers.
I wouldn’t say unions are the problem, but more like big government itself and lack of local control over decision making. The politicians and the highly paid central administration are making decisions that are strangling effective educational reform. Yes, there are issues with union obstruction of some needed reforms. Those with the least knowledge about the needs of a school are making all of the decisions and have all the power. I agree with Rand Paul, we should not try to fix No Child Left Behind, we should dismantle it, repeal it and deauthorize not reauthorize it.
Hey Conservative Democrat,
“Cdev all you want to do is protect the status quo of union monopoly of the education system. The unions are the problem and you are against competition. We need to give people school choice with vouchers.” – There are far too many things wrong with education in the US to blame it on the union. Lets consider all the other factors such as NCLB, R2TT, teaching to the test, poor performing teachers, children not being brought up properly by their parents, children in poverty not getting food or sleep, parents not caring, parents interfering too much, kids not caring, government interference in the local school’s operation, low teacher pay and poor work conditions, and the lack of caring by parents, students, teachers and society as a whole. Yep, it is all the union’s fault.
Anyways, have a nice day.
COnservative Dem,
Youu are aware that in this state. Teachers Unions have next to no authority to do anything. The LEA is not even bound to honor the contract it negotiates, as if they are really negotiating because at the end of the day if they can not agree they do what they want anyway.
Decoy and Paul have both said it best. But to add you can have school choice without vouchers. If all public schools had magnet programs of some sort you would have a choice. Vouchers do not work. If you gave each kid the PPE of 9,000 to go to a private school that would still not cover tution at the top private schools. Not to mention there would not be seats for all kids. To still comply with the MAryland Constitution we would have to spend more money because the kids left require more then 9K to educate and comply with the law. This costs more money in the long run.
No on paper charter schools look good but the sad fact is most of them fail because the people who get in to them realize there is more involved then they think. Just like there is a high percentage of homeschoolers who return to public school after 2 years when the accountability piece roles around because the parents realize they bit off more then they could chew and the kids come back woefully behind!
Paul MC
No, you have a nice day.
Hey Conservative Democrat,
“Paul MC No, you have a nice day.” – You don’t want to have a nice day? Ok, that is your choice. I prefer to have a nice day and I usually do.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Also, HCPS has the habit of pulling students out of AP classes to participate in athletics, social activities, harford glen, etc. . . The policy is that the teacher will “just work harder to have them catch up” and if they can’t keep up, well. . . it’s the teacher’s fault
@Frustrated Parent – Several HCPS administrators are making the China trip you have referenced – for more on this topic, please see “China Trip” under The Dagger Forums
My North Harford DS took the AP Computer Science test yet there is not data for NHHS for that test. Why?
You all make me laugh with your million solutions to education! Until you realize you get what you pay for and decide to make teaching a respected, decent salaried option for our best and brightest you will get nothing but mediocrity- You talk of competition and capitalism, yet you expect one of our greatest resources to go largely unfunded; you don’t want to pay teachers competitive salaries, and yet you gripe about how poor they perform. At this rate, your investments will yield more mediocrity which puts even more pressure on those who are trying to over-compensate for the poor teachers –who we also have to deal with–and that leads to burn out from the best —
There are many wonderful teachers still working to do the best for your kids and wondering why they continue to bother. Altruism only goes so far when you give your entire life to this kind of service; you can’t afford your own families’ bills, and you are neglecting them from the ammount of work you bring home every night- for which you are NOT paid….Then you read public opinions like these and one more time- seriously think about throwing in the towel….THANKLESS- DIFFICULT– OVERWORKED-UNDERPAID-DISRESPECTED– and you wonder why education is not better??? One step would be to consider supporting your teachers; they are on YOUR SIDE!
SO if you really want to improve education consdier the following SIMPLE solutions: get rid of useless spending on solutions that will not fix the problem; hire more teachers; make teaching a position that the best and brightest college grads would WANT to enter; ease teacher burnout by allowing for quality professional development and planning time; ensure teachers have the resources they need, and allow for more one on one attention for students with smaller classes….
FINALLY QUIT DRAGGING TEACHERS THROUGH THE MUD! You would be amazed how much a simple thank you note for what your child’s teacher does can do to keep us motivated. Honestly- the majority of teachers are doing what they can in the trenches- far more for far less than you might realize….
To A Teacher,
Let’s try to put this in perspective.
Dis-respected? Probably but you need to take that up with your supervisors, principals and administration. Also, with the lib/Dems who are the darlings of your unions. Were it up to me any kid who continued to be a problem would be out of the school and their parents (or parent) dealt with in a way that would get everyone’s attention in a big hurry.
Underpaid? Not so much. Let’s not forget you work about 190-200 days per year not the 250 that the rest of us work. (Yes, I can multiply – I reduced it for 10 holidays). Your benefit package is a Cadillac plan by Obama’s definition. You contibute little to nothing for pension and medical and your benefits far out pace similar jobs in the private sector.
Draggin you thru the mud? Well you have to realize that your union is you, and you are your union. Teachers unions represent a lot of what is wrong with education. Not all, but a lot. What the union says and does is you saying it and doing it. They represent you. Guilt or innocence by association.
The other issue that works against all of you hard working and excellent teachers is that some of your colleagues are incompetent. You and your union protect them. They hurt our kids and in the eyes of many of us you (and your union) are fighting to allow that to continue. When you do that, remember that the searing pain you feel in your foot is a self-inflicted bullet wound. The really competent and hard working teachers should be the first to stand up and shout “get rid of them!” That would be the first step toward regaining some of the credibility that you have lost.
A Teacher,
Do you think there just might be a connection between the lack of respect many have for teachers and their union (what you refer to as ‘dragging them thru the mud)and the new position just advertised by the New York City Public School System? They are looking for someone to fill the position of Condom Coordinator at a salary of ‘up to $88,000 per year’ plus all benefits.
The position you mention is for the NYC Health Dept. not the school system. Yes their primary function will be to deliver condoms to schools but you must remember that in many areas of the country other agencies like the health dept, social services, parole and probation, police, etc. have space in public school buildings. Unfortunately schools are often the only place that kids can get access to these services. These people do not work for the schools they just share space which is often out of the control of school system officials.
The issue of declining respect is a societal problem. It is especially difficult to control students in an environment where there is no real consequence for disrespect for authority. The deck appears to be stacked against teachers as they are unable to get rid of students whose behavior disrupts the classroom and interferes with the rights of other students to get a quality education.
And their union who are unwilling to get rid of teachers who are incompetent and unqualified.
Frankly I think your analogy to NY is ridiculous though I do agree with the point that there is MUCH wasted spending in education- spending on the wrong things- like standardized tests versus competitive teacher salaries or hiring more teachers. Harford County is one of the least competitive counties in the state- HCPS does not compete with neighboring counties or PA, for example- and yet we expect to attract the best and brightest to this county to teach?? How, if we do not value teachers or do not strive to even compete with the next county over?? If you pay only for medicority- again- that is what you will get! If I were graduating now I certainly would look elsewhere first. In fact, if I were graduating now, I would likely not go into education at all considering the way our society continually devlaues education and scapegoats those who deserve, for the majority of cases, our upmost gratitide and respect. And I love my job with my students-why I stay! It is the rest of it that wears you down- day after day- comments like these on this site, for example. Trying to pay your mortgage when you know with your education and qualifications, there is a lot more money to be made. If you want teachers to be motivated to do more, more, more, and better, better, better- how about an incentive or maybe even a pat on the back occasionally?
Our union actually does very little for us in case you haven’t been following the news lately; it has very little power at all, so I don’t buy into that either.
I do agree that bad teachers are like shooting my own foot- I have to make up for them at times, and it makes my job much harder. I am angered when someone who doesn’t care or work hard like I do-or has burned out on the system gets the same treatment as I do- same salary- and mad that I get lumped into “those teachers” based on the few there are in existence. That being said- those cases are VERY few and far between. The great majority of the teachers I work with are highly educated and qualified, intelligent, dedicated, hard working, caring, and TIRED of taking the blame for a faulty system that is widely out of their control. And, those teachers tend to shut the door and strive to do what is best to teach all of their students the best they can under the perameters and circumstances that are dictated —which actually make the job more difficult- because it is the right thing to do- and because we hope someone is doing that for our children.
To deny the need to support teachers and education- to deny the need to INVEST in our children- is criminal and negligent. In the words of Robin Cook, “Education is more than a luxury; it is a responsibility that society owes to itself.” When we realize that showing RESPECT to the PROFESSION of teaching is the first step in improving education then we are starting down a better path for our future.
@A Teacher – The taxpayers have over-supported the education system here in Harford County and the country and we have gotten a terrible return on our investment.
Hey Porter,
“@A Teacher – The taxpayers have over-supported the education system here in Harford County and the country and” – What do define over-supported as? Is it the low pay, the mediocre benefits, the constant lying to by the government, the daily dealings with uncaring, uncooperative parents and students? Just curious as to how you define over-support.
“we have gotten a terrible return on our investment.” – What return do you feel we have gotten and what do you feel is needed? Also, how do you blame the teachers when there are so many other factors that the teachers have no control over?
I am not saying the teachers are perfect and that every one is effective, however, I would say the majority do their jobs very well.
Anyways, have a nice day.
@Paul – Obviously you can’t read so give it a go again –
“The taxpayers have over-supported the education system here in Harford County and the country and we have gotten a terrible return on our investment.”
Harford County spends over $11,500 per student per year.
Most private schools in the area cost considerably less than $11,500 – particularly up through 8th grade before all the sports nonsense really takes hold. The education system in the US is a government monopoly. Nothing good ever comes from a government monopoly. All the things that have had great advances like computers, phones, cars, medicines, etc. have done so because of competition. Vouchers have done great good in D.C. which is no surprise since it’s schools are practically war zones. The fault is not with the teachers (although there are some that would be culled) but with the system.
Wrong the PPE is that but Harford County does not provide all that money some is federal and some is state. Additionally the average kid costs far less then that but factor in tuition at Sheapard Pratt for a severe case at 120K a year and that skews the average!
Amazed most private schools are not spending money on special education, providing books or transportation for those costs or a myriad of other services either.
@CDEV OK, some is county, some is state and some is federal… I’m not sure what difference that makes to the total. Do you feel that government monopolies are an efficient way of accomplishing any goal? If the numbers are skewed, what are they in reality? Does anyone know or attempt to find out? You needn’t tell me what private schools provide. I have had kids in private school for ten years now.
AMAZED: Every parent has the right to send their child to a private school. Every private school has the right to limit students. Private schools do not teach to a standard curriculum, do not have to pass State mandated tests, nor hire fairly compensated certified teachers. The parents of these students have a monetary interest in their child doing well, not so in public schools.
Public schools, on the other hand, must accept every child no matter how dysfunctional and must main stream them. Special needs children must pass the same tests as non-special needs children. Special education is extremely expensive and because of NCLB skews results on mandated tests.
You are comparing apples and oranges. I will say this, however, about our public schools: they are excellent. When I compared the colleges that seniors were accept to at John Carroll and Bel Air High School, the public school kids did much better. This was in 2002. I do not think there has been much change.
Our constitution clearly states that education is free and a local responsibility. I do not call it a “government monopoly” but the reason our country is great. No it is not “efficient” in a factory sense because of the reasons I stated. At least everyone has a right to a good education, not just the rich who can afford a private school. An educated public is a productive public, which is why I support the Dream Act.
I’m not actually familiar with the Maryland Constitution. This must be the one that states “that education is free and a local responsibility” since it doesn’t seem to appear in the US Constitution. The government controls the public school system and there is no competition allowed except for a few voucher system and charter school experiments here and there. If you want schools to be better, allow competition. The Dream Act is a reward for law breaking. I don’t expect anyone who hasn’t paid with time and money to go through the immigration process legally to understand that.
Hey Amazed,
Article 8 of the Maryland constitution states, in section 1, “The General Assembly, at its First Session after the adoption of this Constitution, shall by Law establish throughout the State a thorough and efficient System of Free Public Schools; and shall provide by taxation, or otherwise, for their maintenance.”
Amazed,
I know the numbersexist. to tell you what certian services cost per kid. They are in the budget. Private schools are actually expensive when you consider the myriad of services they do not provide which public schools MUST provide. In some cases the public school system provides the services for a kid in private schools. At my wifes school she says the speech teacher sees 4 kids from John Carrol. You mentioned sports and activities which cost money. The same things are not availible to ES school kids here but they have the same PPE. Why is it important to differentiate between Federal, State and Local? This is important because MOE requires Harford county to provide the same PPE amount each year or more. If the feds cut back Harford county does not have to compensate for that.
AMAZED: This country invented free public education and was one of the reasons we are a great country. “American public education differs from that of many other nations in that it is primarily the responsibility of the states and individual school districts. The national system of formal education in the United States developed in the 19th century. Jefferson was the first American leader to suggest creating a public school system. His ideas formed the basis of education systems developed in the 19th century.
After the Declaration of Independence, 14 states had their own constitutions by 1791, and out of the 14, 7 states had specific provisions for education. Jefferson believed that education should be under the control of the government, free from religious biases, and available to all people irrespective of their status in society. Others who vouched for public education around the same time were Benjamin Rush, Noah Webster, Robert Coram and George Washington.”
Wow, thanks. Those are impressive names. So the public school system is perfect the way it is and cannot be improved via competition. I’m glad to have been corrected.
amazed: You are welcome. It is amazing but I guess one is never too old or entrenched in beliefs to learn. I am happy to have been of help.
A TEACHER: I have noticed in my forty year career in education that there are three types of parents.
One cannot be bothered and expects the teacher to be both mother/father and do their job for them. They are the ones who say, “I can’t do a thing with him/her.” They are the ones who expect society to do everything for them and they just take.
Another, who is usually well educated and successful, considers the teacher as hired help and they understand how to educate as they, after all, are educated and how hard could it be? They are the ones who consider teachers as “failed” professionals. They look down on the profession and expect to get their way if they complain enough.
The third are the ones we wish we can work with. They are the ones who want to be our partners and work with us for their children. They are supportive and volunteer. It is a pity that there are not more like that!
You forgot the ones who are so concerned with being their child’s best friend and reliving their childhood they refuse to parent and will not let you discipline them either!
CDEV: Oh yes, I did forget that one. There are four types.
Hey Porter,
“@Paul – Obviously you can’t read so give it a go again -” – Way to address the issue by insulting someone. I did not insult you one time, I responded to your assertion with a reasoned response and you resort to insults. That was a bit uncalled for, don’t you think? This seems to be the typical way things happen around here. People can’t discuss things so when someone responds and they have no counter, they resort to insults.
““The taxpayers have over-supported the education system here in Harford County and the country and we have gotten a terrible return on our investment.”” – Again, how have the taxpayers over-supported the education system? Please, give something more than your word as the gospel truth.
“Harford County spends over $11,500 per student per year.” – DC spends 14324 per student per year, New York spends 15981 per student per year, Maryland as a whole spends 11724 per student per year. The US as a whole spends 9,666 per student per year.
What data do you have tha supports your statement that the education system is over-supported and that the return on investment is poor? I eagerly await your response, Porter. Maybe without insults this time. Lets discuss this in a polite manner.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Hey Porter,
To counter your argument, I have uncovered the following:
Maryland ranks 11th in the US in money spent per student per year.
According to CBS, Maryland 4th graders ranked 8th in the US on the 2009 National Assesment of Education progress.
According to US News Maryland ranks 9th in the US for best high schools by statistics.
According to an article on Huffington Post (Yes, I know Huffington has a huge liberal bias), the results were obtained from the Science and Engineering Readiness Index, Maryland ranked 7th.
I am sure I could find more statistics if I spent more than a minute actually looking.
Do I think the education system in Harford County is perfect? Nope. In Maryland? Nope. In the US? Nope. I would like to know what you consider to be over-supporting, a good return on investment and well, proper support.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Educational Success = (student effort² * native intelligence) + (curiosity * joy of learning) + (parental support + study habits) + (excellent teachers + appropriate resources)/TV + video games + poor diet + absenteeism + teen angst
“Education forms the common mind. Just as the twig is bent, the tree’s inclined.” – Alexander Pope.
Education is tangential to learning: education being the time in a school, with a teacher and textbooks. Education can only give you the tools for learning. Learning is only achieved by the individual, at his own pace, by his own will. Schools and teachers cannot force a student to learn, that is only accomplished through one’s own efforts.
Some have complained that our schools have failed our students. They base this belief on results from the standardized tests administered in schools to measure achievement. The results from those tests seem to indicate that America is losing the war to educate our youth and compete in the world market. While our mean expenditure per pupil is $11,152, second to only Switzerland at $11,334 , we rank twenty-first out of twenty-nine of developed nations in science and fifteenth in reading literacy .
Some believe poor teacher preparation and inadequate execution of lessons are the reasons for this decline, while others blame the lack of resources. I feel that the fault lies much earlier in the life of our children. It begins before one ever sees the inside of a classroom. It begins with parents that use the TV as a means to quiet children; a home without books, newspapers and magazines that are read and discussed; a life without imagination and wonder.
This problem is compounded and multiplied by our blind faith that measuring students’ knowledge with standardized tests and holding teachers accountable for poor results will somehow compensate for the lack of thinking. We demand teachers be held accountable for students’ poor performance. This concept is based on the premise that students will improve their test scores if only the teacher tried a little bit harder. It fails because it demands teachers’ accountability for student behavior without real authority to change it. Only parents have this authority and many of them refuse to participate in the educational process of their children.
Education, and by extension, thinking, is a labor intensive process that requires hours of rigorous and intensive work ON THE PART OF THE STUDENT. One cannot pour knowledge into someone’s head. Only the student can master knowledge and skills through his own efforts. Without knowledge, thinking and creation is difficult, if not impossible. Without a workforce that can think and create, we will lose our place in the world marketplace.
Gary,
Great response.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Gary,
In fact, we have already lost our place. We are slipping more each year. We have imported some highly educated people who are willing to come legally thru the immigration process because of better financial opportunity compared to where they are coming from, plus a higher degree of freedom and opportunity. We have also ‘imported’ illegals who are, for the most part, unskilled labor desperate to escape their country of origin.
We have created a private school industry where parents with the economic means can obtain a better education for their children in a better educational environment. It is no accident that they number of students in private schools has skyrocketd over the past 25-40 years. Our public schools, as a result of ridiculous policies and liberal biased court rulings are left with the remainder. Good teachers are frustrated beyond words having to spend time teaching farcical subjects in an atmosphere that can be circus like at best and violent at worst. They are held accountable to a standard that often can’t be reached by an educational establishment that is focused on getting more dollars at any cost, even sometimes fraudulently changing test scores.
I’m thankful my kids didn’t have to endure the public school fiasco and my grand children, when the time comes, won’t have to endure it either. The rest of you can put up with it or try to change it. Good luck!
ALEX R: I am grateful that my daughter did go to Bel Air High School where she had a first rate education and was accepted into a first rate public university and has a first rate government job. I guess it is all a matter of perspective.
Gary,
Of course I can’t argue with that and I’m glad she did. Unfortunately that is not always the case. And when a parent/child experiences something less than what your daughter experienced there is little to no recourse inside the public school environment.
Here, as they say in poker, is the ‘tell’. When families move to Harford County, or move from one place to another within the county, their absolute top priority is public school district if they expect to send their children to public school. Even if they don’t expect to send their children to public school they know that public school district alone is a significant factor in how desirable their house will be if and when they resell.
ALEX R: You stated that “when a parent/child experiences something less than what your daughter experienced there is little to no recourse inside the public school environment.” I beg to differ. There are many interventions found in a public school not usually found in a private school, many of which are for profit or have a religious predisposition (I have a strong belief in the separation of church and state). Public schools, conversely, have whole staffs devoted to helping students succeed whereas the usual action for troubled students in a private school is the door.
You also stated “that (the) public school district alone is a significant factor in how desirable their house will be if and when they resell.” Exactly! That is why all should support our public schools, both financially and morally. The better our schools are, the better our community is. Also, the better our teachers are, the better our schools are. We should insist that we have only the best teachers by paying them at least what surrounding counties pay and supporting them. A private school adds nothing to a community. I have cautioned several young teachers to NOT teach in this county as there is not the support necessary to sustain a thirty year career.
I hope our different points of view are converging.
Gary,
Very good point about the religious disposition. My wife got an influx of kids this year from a closed private school who had serious deficiets in science and math. They knew every times table, divisior etc but could not do word problems and had a curriculum which included teaching how the dinosaurs and people co exisited in the same community. They had a course called math of the bible but could not measure in metric units.
CDEV: Could they measure in cubits?
She said that and the english system was all they knew
I’m glad I graduated from the AP/Honors classes at CMW with a great SAT and got into multiple Ivy league acceptances and ended up at a top 10 engineering school with nearly a full scholarship and graduated with a great job and minimal debt.
I have been more successful than my 6 cousins who went to JC, and I laugh at those who look down at us who went to public school in Harford County.
“…ended up at a top 10 engineering school with nearly a full scholarship and graduated with a great job and minimal debt.”
With nearly a full scholarship, why would you have ANY debt?
Not all HCPS are created equally and certainly CMW is at the top in most categories. I would also argue that the public schools have gotten worse since we moved here 15.5 years ago.
NOT FROM HERE: “nearly a full scholarship” when one gets “nearly” a full scholarship, he has some debt by defination.
What criteria do you use to claim that “public schools have gotten worse since we moved here 15.5 years ago?”
“What criteria do you use to claim that ‘public schools have gotten worse since we moved here 15.5 years ago?'”
Well, Proud to Be Liberal, my most important criteria for this comment is that my children are no longer in HCPS.
My children both have a wake of retired elementary and high school teachers behind them and those experienced teachers have been replaced with recent grads. I do not have the numbers, but I know that the number of teachers with less than five years of experience is a big number in HCPS. The block schedule has been implemented, which is according to College Board the schedule that has the poorest pass rates for AP testing. More and more kids take AP classes, which waters down the curriculum for the kids who should be taking the classes.
When my older child was a student at Bel Air Middle School, they eliminated the foreign language program for the top language students, something that is available at some, but not all HCPS. And though there was the promise of gifted education from the time my older child was in elementary schoool, I do not think that it has materialized (sorry, folks, enrichment that is open to all doesn’t count).
I could go on, but I won’t. My kids are both out of public school and I am happy about everything but the cost. However, the cost was worth it.
Oh, and my daughter has “nearly a full ride” at her top-ten public research university and she will graduate debt free, so that was why I posed the question. If a student has nearly a full ride merit scholarship, summer earnings and financial aid should pay the balance. If the student doesn’t qualify for financial aid, the parents should be able to foot the bill for the balance. Just sayin’.
Not From Here: You stated that “…my most important criteria for this comment is that my children are no longer in HCPS.” That is not a reason but a result.
“I do not have the numbers, but I know that the number of teachers with less than five years of experience is a big number in HCPS.” Usually criteria are quantifiable. I personally think young, fresh teachers that are still in the flush of idealism are better teachers.
“More and more kids take AP classes, which waters down the curriculum for the kids who should be taking the classes.” How do you know that the students that are taking these courses are “watering down the curriculum?” There are quite rigorous standards for these courses that are independent from the HCPS.
“…they eliminated the foreign language program for the top language students.” Does that mean they kept it for students who were not “top language students?” Why would they do that?
I am sorry you are not happy with the HCPS, I am and it costs me nothing.
Your daughter is awesome, but so are many who graduated from Bel Air High.
Not from here.
The piece about new teachers….That is happening everywhere. Teachers are retiring. In the mid to late 80’s we had a surplus of teachers. The teachers are now reaching retirement age and our top heavey teaching staff is being replaced with new teachers. To further complicate this Harford county treats its teacher’s like crap when it comes to pay and people are leaving in droves. Harford County no longer gets the pick of the crop from Towson. They mostly get former students, who are fewer and further between and those who not primary bread winners! Add to this the errosion in respect that good teachers are given by the community, well you can see what will happen eventually. My main point is that many school districts are top heavy, Harford county is just more so.
Let’s not forget the only people who have school choice are ones who work for the school system. There are schools in this county overcrowded because of Boundary Exceptions of school system employees. They tell parents and the community that certain schools are okay/good or acceptable for their kids but not good enough for someone who works for HCPS. The public should have the same option if they want to send their kids to another school and they DO NOT even if another school has a program or classes that a particular school doesn’t. Look up cases that have been brought to the Maryland State Department of Education by parents in this county …
not true. If you go to Magnolia MS or William Paca you have a choice. In HS you have many choices, Aberdeen, Edgewood, Harford Tech, North Harford. Boundary exceptions are availible to anyone who applies with a real reason and you provide your own transportation!
correction Magnolia ES
Sorry CDEV not so easy. Lots of kids apply to Harford Tech and get rejected because their grades aren’t as competitive . Aberdeen is also competitive. Boundary exceptions are not based on GPA. Bel Air high school has a “signature program” that kids who live in that district have an advantage. If you think it is that easy to get a boundary exception in high school for programatic differences in schools, go look at the MSDE website and cases where parents have tried to get their students in another school.
It is fairly easy if you have a good reason for one. Not I prefer that school. I never said Bel Air. What about North Harford and Edgewood? You can get one if you want a program like that is not availible at your school if there is room. Like Cisco at Joppatowne.
There was a recent recommendation put before the school board to move the CISCO program out of Joppatowne HS. “Choice” options from Wm. Paca/Old Post Road and Magnolia elementary schools are only because those schools are considered failing schools under NCLB. The choice given to parents/students is limited and specified by the school system. Also, boundary exceptions are not as easy to acquire as many might think.
TIm they are if you have a real reason. If your say it is social or you just want a different school you will not get it. It is very easy to get into a school like Havre de Grace and Joppatowne which are way under capacity!
Hey Frustrated,
There is a difference between a boundary exception and being accepted to one of the magnet programs, such as Harford Technical High School, the Math and Science Academy at AHS, and the others. The magnet programs require a special application and considers such things as grades, test scores, comments, etc. These seem to be very competitive. The boundary exception is much more flexible and can be obtained for a number of reasons, including child care, curriculum, hardship, etc. There are also limitations to the boundary exceptions, such as school capacity, staffing, course of study, etc.
Anyways, have a nice day.
A few comments: I agree with Not from Here, the schools are worse than they were 7 years ago when we moved here. I’ll add to the list, Everyday Math, and career clusters as 2 bad ideas in HCPS. As to the comments about religious schools, let me point out the in Catholic schools they teach evolution, something not all public schools can boast. My kids, now in Catholic schools, had to retake Geometry in High school because the Geometry they had at Patterson Mill Middle wasn’t sufficient. My daughter said that what they learned in Public school was “geometry lite.”
I know Catholic schools teach evolution. They generally do a good job at teaching the sciences, particularly Jesuit schools. That said many religious schools that are not catholic in faith do a poor job at teaching honest to God science without attempting to interject issues or that are either patently false or contridictory to the nature of science. Career clusters where not a Harford County concept. The state requires a career completer (cluster) or 2 years of the same foriegn language and a fine and practical art. By offering career clusters to the kid who is not good with foriegn language.