Teachers at North Harford High School were instructed late last year to grade several students only on the work they had completed, and to exempt those students from all other course work. The process was termed “grading out” by the school administration, which told teachers to override the Harford County Public Schools grading system if necessary. The grading system automatically records zeros for missing work, which would have dragged down the students’ final grades.
A source familiar with the situation told The Dagger that “grading out” at North Harford was applied to students who had been on long term suspension and that the free ride included both final exams and work assigned after the students were suspended.
As such, “grading out” would seem contrary to Harford County Board of Education policy, which requires students to complete make-up work following a school suspension or any other legal absence:
The source said the process of “grading out” was a way to get students to pass their courses and that it was likely in response to pressure to raise passing rates; pressure that the source said had been put on all Harford County school administrators by Superintendent Robert M. Tomback.
With at least one Harford County high school instructing teachers to engage in the practice of “grading out”, The Dagger contacted HCPS, asking the following questions about why a student might be graded only on work submitted and exempted from all other work:
Under what circumstances are students eligible to be “graded out”?
Who makes the decision to grade a student out?
What is the purpose?
Teri Kranefeld, manager of communications for HCPS, responded in an email as follows:
“…this has to do with one student with some disciplinary issues. I cannot discuss the details of case with you but there is no concept of “grading out” – you are referencing an individual student and issues that surround them.”
But that response from HCPS is at odds with an email sent out from the North Harford High School administration on June 9, 2011, days before the end of the last school year. The email outlines the procedure for “grading out” and reads in part: “We have several students on our rolls that are to be ‘graded out’ for the year.” Widely distributed at the time – to teachers, staff and administrators – the email goes on to provide instructions for altering students’ final grades.
A copy of the email was provided to The Dagger and appears below (identities of the sender and recipient have been removed):
Sent: Thu 6/9/2011 3:33 PM
To: Dist.Teachers.NHHS-080.HS;Dist.Staff.NHHS-080.HS; Dist.Admin.NHHS-080.HS
Subject: Grading Out Students.We have several students on our rolls that are to be “graded out” for the year. Below are the guidelines for doing so.
“Grading Out a Student”
Grade on the work that the student has completed for you. They should be exempted from all other work.
If need be, override the final grade and enter the grade the student has earned. If you are unable to override the grade please e-mail me the grade that needs to be entered.
Excellent reporting Cindy! Based on my past experience with upper level administrators from HCPS HQ, they will not give a straightforward answer unless legal remedy is mentioned.
I wish I could get this kind of treatment. I have worked hard for my high gpa and I find this as a slap in the face to me and the students that come to schools and do there work
sorry – but you need to work a little harder on your grammar – “their” not “there” work! 🙂
sorry – but you need to work a little harder on your grammar – “their” not “there” work! 😉
I work for another HCPS school and we are “encouraged” to not give 0’s to any students who fail to hand in assignments. Those students are to be given a 50% and students who earn a 50% still get a 50%… Also on tests students can not earn less than a 50%. Pretty pathetic b/c you can earn a 50 without even putting forth effort.
This is the policy of Cecil County elementary schools as well. It absolutely blew my mind. This much be a widespread policy throughout the state.
same policy in HCPS elementary schools…no assignment grade to be given below a 50%…then the teacher can issue a ‘bump up’ grade to boost the student for whatever reason they choose…amazing!
please take a cue from Wisconsin and destroy the teachers union
Not too bright, are you? It’s the ADMINISTRATION pushing these policies. The fact that the Dagger has a copy of the e-mail suggests that it was a TEACHER who sent it to them, likely out of disgust for what they were being told to do. The administration has its own union, wholly separate from the teacher’s union.
Keep drinking that Limbaugh/Hannity Kool-Aid.
Destroy the teachers union? What do they have to do with this article? Did you even read it? It is the administration who pushed the policies.
I suppose, if the public schools are responsible for your education, or lack there of, perhaps the union should be destroyed.
It seems a little odd that you should be pointing your finger at teachers in anyway in regards to this issue. I suggest instead that you should have serious questions about administrative practices. If you don’t understand the difference between teachers and administrators, then maybe you should have payed a bit more attention while you were in school. I would also suggest that you keep the nightmare called Wisconsin politics out our business in Harford County. Move back to Wisconsin and clean up your mess. Perhaps, you can encourage more recalls and protests or elect more inept politicians who pass questionable legislation. Yes, I am employing some sarcasm but trying (although unsuccessfully) to be nice.
What is questionable about the Wisconsin legislation? It has helped turn the financial status of the state around.
I must have confused C-SPAN coverage and viewer comments pro and con for a made for TV movie. I guess the government in the “cheese” state is so wonderful that taxpayers are endorsing politicians with 100% approval ratings. I just wish that our politicians here would produce such superb legislation and policy. I really love those new bridge tolls and the in-state tuition deal for those not here legally. Yes, I am being sarcastic. I stand by my use of the word “questionable”. I made no claim as to how “effective” the legislation was. I would not anyway, as unlike yourself, I do not live in Wisconsin and therefore would not speculate. You do live in Wisconsin? Please don’t disappoint me and tell me that you really live here.
The teachers union has NOT implemented this policy. Your hostility towards teachers is pathetically misplaced.
That’s not the only school that happened at (and I know of instances where teachers were instructed to excuse particular students from their finals because they missed so much school due to suspensions, etc at other schools.) I wouldn’t be surprised if something similar occurred at virtually every high school in the county.
It is important that more students actually pass, however they should pass because they actually completed their work satisfactorily, not because they were such screw ups that the administration says “Well, we’ll give these kids a pass so our numbers don’t look bad.” If a kid fails then they fail and if mommy and daddy want to complain, then go ahead, but don’t change the grade. Tough shit. The parents should’ve made sure their kid was doing the work.
It’s an insult to every other student who actually shows up, studies, hands in their work, and behaves to do otherwise. It also cheapens whatever achievements other students earn.
I just hope that whoever sent along the e-mail was careful about it. The county can see who sends/forwards e-mails with their HCPS account. Hopefully the whistle-blower was smart enough to print and mail it or some other method that isn’t track-able.
hey iLeft, printing IS trackable. taking a photo of the screen is not.
Anyway, I have mixed feelings about this one. If this student fails, does that mean that they come back next year? How does that work w/ NCLB? There is a reason the student that is on an extended suspension. What is the net result of keeping them around? If I’m in line with my family at an event and a belligerent drunk cuts to the front I feel it’s best to let them move out of my path asap. Depending on the situation I look at it as either empathy for unknown circumstances, or letting karma and natural selection do it’s job. I know that the other students are working very hard but ultimately I’d rather just hand this one the diploma and let everyone else that wants to be there feel safe and get back to work.
This ‘grading out’ option is intended to protect the overall success rate for the school and protect “No Child Left Behind” dollars.
News flash…The System is broken!
Good students reared by good parents can still get a good education, but a dysfunctional family environment is going to hamper any chance that the educational community can be successful.
This grading policy is duct tape on a train wreck. They get the train to the station…no word on the condition of the passengers.
“this has to do with one student with some disciplinary issues.”
So Teri, you’re implying that it’s OK to engage in such practices because it only had to do with “one student”?!?
Wow, I’m really happy to see that HCPS has such a HIGH DEGREE OF ETHICS when it comes to acting on principle! I’m so, so happy to know my kids are being educated by such a fine system.
And we wonder why our country is going to hell?!?….We can’t even get school administrators to DO THE RIGHT THING!
Sounds like this is top down from Superintendent Robert M. Tomback, time to fire this fellow.
This is unbelievable! I have a student who, because of a documented disability that was beyond his control, was often not able to complete work. Not only did he get a zero grade on it but I had trouble getting HCPS to even recognize the disability and give him a 504 plan to allow for flexibility in his assignments. And now kids who did something deliberate and got suspended don’t get penalized on their grades for it????? Totally annoying.
It is not about teaching, it is about the administrators keeping their jobs and getting the money/$’s associated with “No Child Left Behind.” Like the famous phrase from the movie ‘All the President’s Men’ – follow the money.
Totally agree. I am going to allow for the possibility that some of these instances are for medical reasons. If that’s not the case, and your situation is a valid one, then this is pretty despicable.
I highly recommend you contact MD Disability Law Center if you continue to have problems getting the school to recognize your child’s disability and plan accordingly. They have education specialists who intervene in these kinds of situations on a regular basis.
i join your frustration. my daughter got sick at the end of a marking period. i was single parenting at the time, and the grade slipped by unchecked until next marking period. i approached admin to see if she could make up and was told no.
And people wonder why the Chinese and Indians are cleaning our clocks with educated workers. There is no accountability for student actions in this policy. In the end, the country suffers.
@Proud….based on your username I can see we likely don’t have a lot in common politically, but your comment is right on.
This is the beginning of understanding, tolerance and eventually cooperation. Encourage it wherever you see it materialize.
What does that comment have to do with this discussion?
You are on every comment site but do not really contribute anything except confusion!
I thought he was saying that, only by giving people a chance and listening/reading what they have to say, can we begin to understand each other and make progress.
Then perhaps your pseudonym should be “Confused” instead of “Concerned”
I would try to help you understand the point I was making but I have a feeling the effort would be wasted.
We do not need to get derogatory which is really juvenile. I just meant that your quotes really does not stick to the discussion. Let’s try to civil!
Corrections on my previous post.
I meant quote instead of quotes
Let’s try to be civil.
Concerned: I’m afraid I have not had the experience of David A. Porter being civil. He is a cyber bully who thinks his cute, cutting statements are a substitute for a thoughtful, serious answer.
PIZZLE: To know me is to love me. I know we would have a lot in common if everyone just stop to listen to the other guy.
When I said this: “This is the beginning of understanding, tolerance and eventually cooperation. Encourage it wherever you see it materialize.”
What lead you to the conclusion you arrived at above?
I don’t believe there has been a comment you have written that I have not supported in some moderate fashion. Then again, being in the middle only seems to inflame the ones at the far right of the spectrum to regard me as a socialist or the far left of the spectrum to regard me as being a fascist.
Cyberbully? Really?
David A. Porter: Well David I’m sorry if I misunderstood: “Then perhaps your pseudonym should be “Confused” instead of “Concerned” I would try to help you understand the point I was making but I have a feeling the effort would be wasted.” That sounded sarcastic and demeaning to me. If it wasn’t meant that way, I appoligize.
Proud to be a Liberal,
Thank you for stating the obvious about the cyber bullying by Mr. Porter!
Could you provide an example of somewhere you were demeaned for something you said that wasn’t objected to by anyone else but me?
You two seem to belong to a mutual admiration society. Sort of the kind of thing that has happened here before when people use different usernames to take an identical position. And yes, having to explain the meaning of what was said to someone that missed the point being made the first time is likely a waste of any additional time.
This ruling shows the problem with letter grades. There should be one final test for all courses for all students taking the same course. You either fail it or pass it.
What would a driver license test be like if each person giving it could make up their own test?
Grading is too subjective. Some teachers give higher grades to most students while other teachers give lower grades in the same course in the same school or college. Sometimes the tests do not measure the objectives of the course.
The alphabetical grading system has so many flaws that it is not worth defending. What do we know about a student who got a “C”? What did that student learn or fail to learn? What were the questions on the test? Why is the gap between an A, B, C, and D usually 10 points on a 100 point scale, but an E is anywhere from 0 to 50 points? Wouldn’t most people be doing well to remember 50% of everything they learned? How can 50% be considered 0?
Am I missing something in the policy posted above? I do not see the word “grade” mentioned. I do not see “make-up work” mentioned. Isn’t there a policy on grading or is grading somehow implied in the policy above?
I disagree that this is good reporting. It seems to me that an article like this is at the same level as any I would read in the Aegis.
I’m going to regret asking…but….what grading system would you recommend?
For the record, I think “E” grades are a way for the school system to kick the can down the road with respect to issuing a failing grade. If I’ve misunderstood the purpose of an “E”, will someone please fill me in, as that is just my perception.
Glad you asked. For starters, teachers will need far fewer students and more non-teaching time in their schedules in order to evaluate students in a meaningful way. I know that won’t happen, so my thoughts on a fair system are probably meaningless.
But if it were to happen, students would keep a portfolio of their work and teachers would provide a narrative assessing that work and describing the student’s work habits.
You said you might have misunderstood the purpose of an “E”. I do not believe there would be a common understanding of a “B”, “C”, or “D” either and that is the problem with that system.
The portfolio system has been used in some schools. If I were to decide a student’s suitability for a job or college entrance, I would like to see that student’s work and read what the teacher has to say about it.
A Google search or Portfolio Assessment will give you more information. I regret that the bottom line is the bottom line, that is, not enough time for teachers to implement this well. Have any teachers in Harford County tried? I would like to hear what you have to say about it.
So, I don’t regret asking after all. Sounds like an interesting method. Unfortunately, it won’t happen. Still though, there seems to be a degree of subjectivity in that method. Not sure it addresses the problem of having kids just pass through the system (as is the problem reported in this article), since a teacher can still “evaluate” the portfolio as being adequate….and no…I have not googled the method to see what procedures/protocols are in place to avoid that issue.
In the end, whether using letter grades or a portfolio assessment approach, it seems that there is no substitute for people (including administrators, teachers, students and PARENTS) to step up and do the right thing as it relates to a kid’s education and discipline. Usually (however not in all cases), a punk-ass kid is the product of either punk-ass parents, parents that feel their little Jane or Johnny can do no wrong, so they don’t discipline or parents that just aren’t around and involved enough in the lives of their kid.
Hey there,
“The alphabetical grading system has so many flaws that it is not worth defending.” – All grading systems have pros and cons. I think the alphabetical system is fair, not perfect, but fair.
“What do we know about a student who got a “C”?” – We know they are about average in the subject matter, just like we know a student that got an A has excelled and a person that got a D or an E has done quite poorly.
“What did that student learn or fail to learn? What were the questions on the test?” – Obviously the student that got the C learned most but failed to learn some. In your portfolio assessment, yes, you do have the actual assignments. However, even in the alphabetical grading system, parents, teachers, and students have access to the assignments and can see what the student did on the assignments.
“Why is the gap between an A, B, C, and D usually 10 points on a 100 point scale, but an E is anywhere from 0 to 50 points?” – Well, if you learn only between 0 and 50% of something, you really didn’t learn much about it. If you learn 90-100% of something, you ‘mastered’ it. Quite a simple concept, really.
“Wouldn’t most people be doing well to remember 50% of everything they learned? How can 50% be considered 0?” – You seem to be confusing memorization with learning. Teachers don’t expect, in most cases, students to memorize everything 100%. They expect the students to learn the subject matter and be able to effectively utilize the material learned.
“Am I missing something in the policy posted above?” – Unknown.
“I do not see the word “grade” mentioned. I do not see “make-up work” mentioned. Isn’t there a policy on grading or is grading somehow implied in the policy above?” – The policy was on student attendance, as indicated by the block on the first page that says, ‘Policy Title – Student Attendance’. There is a policy manual on the HCPS website.
“I disagree that this is good reporting. It seems to me that an article like this is at the same level as any I would read in the Aegis.” – I disagree. I think this is good reporting.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul
What about the “other side” of the story? My elder son was failing most everything in his 11th grade year. His excuse … he was “bored”. He dropped out mid way through his junior year, took the GED, scored in the 98th percentile, and got his high school diploma. He is now carrying a 4.0 GPA in his second year at Harford Community College. Shouldn’t the county also implement an accelerated curriculum to keep students like him interested and challenged?
Hey there,
“What about the “other side” of the story? My elder son was failing most everything in his 11th grade year. His excuse … he was “bored”. He dropped out mid way through his junior year, took the GED, scored in the 98th percentile, and got his high school diploma. He is now carrying a 4.0 GPA in his second year at Harford Community College.
Shouldn’t the county also implement an accelerated curriculum to keep students like him interested and challenged?”
First of all, I think it is awesome your son got his GED and is doing so well at HCC. Having a 4.0 GPA is fantastic. I hope he keeps it up.
Now, as for the rest of your post. Should the county put a student that is failing most of his classes into an accelerated program? Because the child is ‘bored’? Umm, seriously? I think maybe the parent of the child should put the child in his room until the child learns to do his damned work and get good grades. This really sounds to me like the parent and the child need to have a chat about expectations, goals, personal responsibility and consequences. Don’t blame the school system for your failing child when it is obvious he could succeed but chose not to. The blame should be placed on the child and the parent.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul
No, it your job to motivate him. You are the parent. You are in charge. He is neither the parent nor is he in charge. Do your job.
Bored? Cop out. He could have done extra then instead of nothing. He was in high school where there are ample opportunities to become a productive member of society. I wonder what kind of role models he had at home. When he sees that his parents don’t care, why should he? Shame on you. Your lack of parenting is evident.
That is what AP and honors courses are for. Why should he be put in a higher class when he won’t prove himself in the first place? Why should my tax dollars do a thing for anyone that won’t do it first for themselves?
People, the article is not about the grading system or the unions. Bring that in on another thread if you want. The topic here speaks for itself. This is good reporting to find this out via info from sources and to follow leads to uncover a totally wrong approach.
These kids who “graded out” will now go out into the world with an HCPS stamp of approval only to encounter employers and colleges that say you need remedial training (if they are lucky) or they will learn that they are “no longer eligible” from the college/tech school or “no longer needed” by the employer. So you put every one on a false premise by doiing things like this.
This should be rooted out by the Bd of Ed., (OK elected members now is the time to step up) suspensions handed out to administrators who did it against standing policy.
Stay on it Cindy – good for you and your sources!
Let’s face it. 3 years ago, our 100% appointed, arrogant, and gullible school board had a choice on who to hire as Superintendent. Among the options were a career educator from our county with an excellent reputation, several other qualified candidates, AND, a mediocre, Ensign Pulver-esque bureaucrat from Baltimore County who’s sole mission was to ride things out til his retirement. That’s right, they chose the latter. And for the umpteenth time, they had the wool pulled over their eyes (Another fine production brought to you by Wolkow and Company). And then, Superintendent Dr. Robert M. Peter Principle, brought in some more high-priced empty suits to surround and protect him, led by his second-in-command, who is clearly without a clue.
With this crew, it is not about the students….. its about getting by, and its about doing and disclosing as little as possible. The last job in the world that I would want right now is Ms. Kranefeld’s.
The tide may be changing with the makeup of the new school board.
OBSERVATION: I don’t think it will get better, but much worse. This is because an elected school board’s first interest is to get re-elected. They have become politicians and politicians seek to be compliant to their voters. If voters want high grades for their kids, even unearned grades, that is what they will get.
Proud to be Liberal:
I understand your point, but there are 2 important components of an elected school board that simply do not exist with an appointed school board, and we have paid the price dearly for that over the last 10 years with M. Wolkow and R. Rich, et. al.: ACCOUNTABILITY and DEMOCRACY. What possible problem could you have with that? Weren’t you listening while we were subjected to Mark Wolkow arguing against both of those principles for all these years, while he arrogantly ignored the facts? While he dismissively labelled any dissenters as malcontents? I’m hoping it disgusted you as it did me. Were you ever present for one of Tom Fidler’s malapropian rants? He made Norm Crosby look like a genius. Have you heard Alison K. speak? Wolkow and Rich served a 5 year term each, and then were re-appointed in a back room in Annapolis to additional 5 year terms; with no public review, evaluation, or input.
In a very well-stated earlier post, you yourself lamented the lack of students’ accountability. Should not the overseers of the school system also be held accountable by the stakeholders and/or their proxies? Those stakeholders are the taxpayers, the students, the parents, and the community into which our educated students will enter. The voters.
As Winston Churchill said, “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time”.
PTB: Your complaints sound like they are directed toward a very specific board. You are painting with a very broad brush. I have been opposed to an elected school board for the following reasons that have never been answered to my satisfaction:
• Elected members often get locked into an issue and may serve only their constituency. Since our board would be elected by districts, they would tend to only work for the benefit of the district that elects them to the detriment of the others. Also, they may be less likely to believe that they have a responsibility to listen to, weigh and balance all community concerns. How will this be avoided?
• Would an elected board develop a budget differently than an appointed board?
• It may cost the county $50,000.00 to run an election, who would pay for this election?
• School board elections have notoriously low turn-out and tend to be swayed by special interest groups (like unions and churches). How would this be avoided?
• Many desirable candidates will not want to run for office. It is costly to run a campaign. It takes a lot of time to meet the voters.
• With an appointed board people with a variety of skills are appointed. Typical board members have professional skills in education, finance, law, construction and human resources. How would an elected board keep a diverse membership?
• Each spring, the work of the elected board would be interrupted by the campaigning of members running for another term or supporting new candidates. Raising money and attending election rallies takes time away from the important issues the board faces, in addition to developing community support for the budget. How would this be avoided with this model?
• School systems nationwide are struggling to meet state standards. Boston, Cleveland, Chicago, New York City, and Washington, D.C. have all replaced elected school boards with appointed boards. The reasoning is that an appointed board can give the system stability in a way you can’t with two new school board members elected every cycle. How would an elected board provide this leadership?
This is not about grading systems, teachers unions, “No child left behind” or even parents not doing a good job. It is one more example of a school system that is out of control, whether it is “grading out” students at NHHS or missing money at PMHMS. Dr. Tomback has no control over the operations of our schools! It is time for Dr. Tomback and the principals responsible to go, not demotions but out of the system completely!
Sadly, many of the things you mention have created this lack of control. NCLB calls for progressively higher achievement rates up to the eventual goal of 100% proficiency. Money is tied to whether or not schools meet those numbers. Can you imagine telling a doctor that his/her pay would be dependent on making sure that 100% of his patients were in good health? NCLB sets an impossible mandate, which leads to administrations pulling this kind of nonsense.
Parenting comes into play as well. You can even see it in this thread. Some parents aren’t outraged about what happened–they are outraged that their kid didn’t get the same crooked grading deal. The number of parents who demand accountability for their children is sadly dwindling (though I can say that NHHS does still have a good number of such parents).
The system is, as you say, “out of control” because it prioritizes making people happy over providing an education.
What ever happened to summer school? Wouldn’t a student who missed considerable time during the year that was not made up during the school year be required to attend summer school to complete the year before being promoted?
Although I am probably an old fart and spent most of my years (but not all) in non-public schools, I do remember students attending summer school when they failed courses or could not catch up after an absence regardless of the reason (discipline, health, other). If grading out is as prevalent as the article and comments seem to make it and it’s motivation is the NCLB, then this falls into the same category as “teaching to the test” has become. When the objectives are passing tests and promotion rates without regard to the methods, you get what we are getting – the lower half of the school system just being passed though without an adequate education.
This is similar to a manufacturing shop that has been ordered to reduce its scrap/reject rate. They can do this the right way by fixing problems and creating better product thereby reducing the reject rate. However, this will require more work and thought and possibly short term money. But in the long term, it should be more cost efficient with a better product and happier customers.
Or they could relax the standard and pass things that had been rejected in the past. This will show results quicker and cost less in the short term, but eventually it catches up with them. The customer ends up with an inferior product and eventually the system collapses as the business goes elsewhere.
Which way do you want to go?
JJ: You have answered your own question, “However, this will require more work and thought and possibly short term money.” Many people in this county refuse to spend any money on schools and then complain that they do not serve all children.
Hey Proud,
“Many people in this county refuse to spend any money on schools and then complain that they do not serve all children.” – This is definitely true, though we mist likely disagree on who refuses to pay and who complains.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul
PAUL: What are you (the royal we) disagreeing with? As far as I can tell, the people who live in this county are complaining and it is they who pay taxes.
Hey Proud,
“Many people in this county refuse to spend any money on schools” – Yes, those that are on public assistance and in the lower tax brackets that don’t pay taxes are the ones that I think refuse to spend any money on schools, in many cases.
“and then complain that they do not serve all children” – The same people.
Now, forgive me if I am wrong, but based on your ‘name’ here, I would assume you are liberal, and would have a different political viewpoint on this. That is where I get the ‘we would disagree’ from.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul
Paul: I stand corrected. You rich folks are willing to fund the government in order to have all the services demanded. Here I thought the tea party wanted no government! Little did I realize that you were so generous.
Hey Proud,
“You rich folks” – I’m not rich. I am middle class at best. I work, pay my taxes, and get by.
“are willing to fund the government in order to have all the services demanded.” – I would prefer the government not have some of the services.
“Here I thought the tea party wanted no government!” – I’m not a member of the tea party, far from it. I want ‘some’ government. I am happy to contribute my fair share. I am not so naive as to think the state and federal government could get by without taxation. I also believe there are far too many programs that are not needed and far too much waste at every level of government.
“Little did I realize that you were so generous.” I’m not, unfortunately, the local, state, and federal government taxes me like I am. I know most people pay taxes. I also know that the ‘rich’ pay the majority and that a large percentage of the population pays little. I also know that everyone pays certain consumer based taxes.
Your original assertion was the most refuse to spend money. Again, I believe that the people that refuse to spend money (at least their money, I think they rather enjoy spending the money of others) are the those in the lower tax brackets and those on public assistance.
The second aspect of your assertion was that they then complain that not all the children are served. Again, I believe those with lower income are the ones doing the majority of the complaining.Yes, there are ‘rich folks’ that don’t contribute and there are ‘rich folks’ that complain.
We seem to have a difference of opinion as to who spends (or refuses to spend) and complains.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul
Paul
Paul: You said, “I think they rather enjoy spending the money of others) are the those in the lower tax brackets and those on public assistance.” This is based on what? This is such a loaded statement. It sounds racist although I am certain you did not mean it that way. If you did not mean it to be racist, then it came across as elitist (“The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.”) You know taxpaying middle class types.
You also said, “I also believe there are far too many programs that are not needed.” Which programs? We can start with corporate welfare and tax loopholes for billionaires. Since you are not a billionaire, why would you want to support these loopholes? Why should billionaires pay only 15% tax rates while I pay twice that? Why should big business be allowed off shore holdings so that they not pay their fair share? You do know how much GE paid?
You have a nice day.
Hey Proud,
“Paul: You said, “I think they rather enjoy spending the money of others) are the those in the lower tax brackets and those on public assistance.” This is based on what?” This is such a loaded statement. It sounds racist although I am certain you did not mean it that way.” – Not racist at all. There are people of all races and ethnic groups that enjoy spending the money of others. I wish I could. There are also people of all races and ethnic groups on public assistance. You do know that there are more ‘whites’ on public assistance than any other race or ethnic group, right?. As for you thinking it sounds racist, you are the one that brought up race, not I. Perhaps you are the racist?
“If you did not mean it to be racist, then it came across as elitist (“The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.”) You know taxpaying middle class types.” – I am aware of what elitist means; and if I didn’t, I would be able to Google it. Also, btw, youur defining elitist for me came off as a tad bit…assholish, I hope you didn’t mean it that way because I have tried to be completely civil and respectful to your opinions and statements here. I don’t believe any class ‘deserves’ anything other than what they earn.I am not superior to any other human. Never said I was. I also never said any group should get favored treatment. I also don’t see how any tax paying middle class type could be elitist, as well, they aren’t elite..:)as for what I base it on, well, my opinion, what I have personally observed. If you have proof to the contrary, please show me. I enjoy reading and am not above stating I am wrong about something.
“You also said, “I also believe there are far too many programs that are not needed.” Which programs?” – Parts of the welfare system, heck, parts of most programs.
“We can start with corporate welfare and tax loopholes for billionaires. Since you are not a billionaire, why would you want to support these loopholes?” – I don’t, never said I did. In fact, I said there are rich folks that don’t contribute and rich folks that complain.
“Why should billionaires pay only 15% tax rates while I pay twice that?” – Why should the majority not pay any taxes at all? I personally think EVERYONE should pay the same percentage. Lets put everyone at 20%…25%, get rid of the tax breaks, the welfare programs and call it a day. You know, fairness..equality..an ideal and unique concept, eh?
“Why should big business be allowed off shore holdings so that they not pay their fair share? You do know how much GE paid?” – They shouldn’t, again, I never said they should.
“You have a nice day.” – I usually do.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul
Paul: You said “I think they rather enjoy spending the money of others…are the those in the lower tax brackets and those on public assistance.” This is based on what? “…as for what I base it on, well, my opinion, what I have personally observed.”
Sorry Paul, What you have personally observed is hardly conclusive. Have you observed every single person who is in the lower tax brackets and on public assistance? What you are guilty of is a SWEEPING GENERALIZATION or an OBSERVATIONAL SELECTION. You may have observed that action among some people and you have extended that all people in that group. It is illogical and must not be used as proof.
As far as taxes are concerned, do you realize that 400 families control more wealth that 150,000,000 people? They can afford to pay taxes at the rate they did under Reagan. Do you really feel a person who makes less than $20,000 should pay the same rate as someone who earns $100,000,000?
People who do not pay income taxes when they DO NOT EARN any money. If you want to know why consider how big business ships most of our jobs to China (who are better educated BTW) If you expect people to earn enough to pay taxes (and that’s all they want too) then you must demand that the Tea Party/GOP stop allowing those jobs to go overseas. Also, getting back to this thread, to provide the education to our children that will allow them to compete for these jobs (and, allow me to add, to demand that they learn).
As far as the definition of elitist is concerned, complain to Webster’s.
Hey there, Gary,
“Sorry Paul, What you have personally observed is hardly conclusive. Have you observed every single person who is in the lower tax brackets and on public assistance? What you are guilty of is a SWEEPING GENERALIZATION or an OBSERVATIONAL SELECTION. You may have observed that action among some people and you have extended that all people in that group. It is illogical and must not be used as proof.” – Yes, I know they are logical fallacies. However, I also stated it was some of a certain group, not all. I know it is not every single person in the group that wishes that. However, I stand by my statement. My opinion is also based on the fact the the liberal politicians seem to favor the “tax and spend” ideaology. If you have prrof to the contray, please provide it. I would love to read it. (and I mean this sincerely.) What I stated was my personal opinion based off of my observations over the years. I know it is not a scientific study and I don’t have any ‘facts’ to back it up. I imagine I could research it, if I really believed it would help. However, I think the liberals would disagree with me while the conservatives would agree. Anyways, I still think I am correct.
“As far as taxes are concerned, do you realize that 400 families control more wealth that 150,000,000 people? They can afford to pay taxes at the rate they did under Reagan. Do you really feel a person who makes less than $20,000 should pay the same rate as someone who earns $100,000,000?” – Yep, I have read that in a number of places. And yes, I think everyone should pay the same tax rate. My idea of what is fair is everyone paying the same rate. To be honest, I actually think everyone paying the exact same amount would be most fair, however, I realize that is not possible.
“People who do not pay income taxes when they DO NOT EARN any money.” – Well, if they don’t earn anything, 20% if 0 is 0. Of course, some of these people are capable of earning money and choose not to. That is a shame.
“If you want to know why consider how big business ships most of our jobs to China (who are better educated BTW) If you expect people to earn enough to pay taxes (and that’s all they want too) then you must demand that the Tea Party/GOP stop allowing those jobs to go overseas.” – I hate sending the jobs overseas. Were I in charge, I would tax the hell out of companies that utilize overseas workers and also tax the hell out of imports. I understand this is against the ‘tax an equal rate’ philosophy that I have preached, however, that philosophy is for the United States, and if the jobs are overseas, then the aren’t in the United States.
“Also, getting back to this thread, to provide the education to our children that will allow them to compete for these jobs (and, allow me to add, to demand that they learn).” – Education should be provided to all on an equal basis. Which, btw, it is not. The per student funding should be equal.
“As far as the definition of elitist is concerned, complain to Webster’s.” – I never complaied about the definition. I basically stated there was no need to state the definition, unless of course, you consider me to be uneducated and not capable of figuring it out for myself.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul
You two fine fellows need to take your duel elsewhere as you have destroyed the dialogue and the subject matter with all this other good and timely and interesting policy talk. But stay on the subject guys, you dissuade others from commenting on the subject Cindy presnts for in-depth consideration. Thanks.
This is a serious concern to many of us parents!!! My child is a B-C student but loves to play sports. He could easily drop down to an E student if as a parent, I didnt stay on top of him. This new idea of altering grades is in no way going to benefit any child. I have used the old rule of “dont pass, dont play” to help encourage my child to do well in school and that education comes first. There are rare situations wher possible home life or sickness may be an excuse for a child not passing, but most of the kids I know of are just being lazy, partying and know there will be an exception made for them just b/c of sports! What good does this do for any child? What happens if they go to college and their professors dont follow this policy? When they get a job and they dont complete the tasks, will their boss make the same exceptions? One of my favorites is when a child has failed at least 1 subject every quarter but is a starter in 2 different sports every year. He will not make it in college but wow…he can say he was a stud athlete in HS!! And to make it worse, their are kids who will go to college, have a chance to play sports and barely see the field! All coaches ego and what about what is best for the kids??? I thought you had to earn a spot on a team, whether grades or athletic, not BS your way through and come up with lame excuses!!
Thank you Cindy from so many parents,for making people aware of this serious county issue!!! Please keep it going!
In the end, our education system will not change until parents change. Parents’ priorities are huge houses, huge cars, gym memberships, $5 dollar coffees and eating out every day of the week. They spend thousands and thousands of dollars on sports starting at the age of 5 on their children. These same parents send their kids to public schools because they are FREE. Until parents put education first, no one has to be held accountable. You get what you pay for!
This is a pretty offensive comment. I do pay for my kids to attended school, its called high taxes! I do not chose to pay an additional 15,000 – 30,000 per child per year for High School using the private school system where people can buy their kids grades and athletics. No I do not have a gym membership, huge house or any of the things you speak of.I chose to give up my career, along with all the perks so I can stay at home and be involved in my kids schools and interests. I have taught my kids conquences and how we follow rules. I have tried to teach them that education is their priority and a responsibility. My point is that HCPS has rules and they need to be follow in every circumstance! No Parent, Staff Member, Coach or amount of money should change them! If you do not pass, you do not play! If on a boundary exception and fail or cause problems, you go back to your old district. If you do drugs/drink, you will be punished! If you have fight, you will be suspended! Is it really that hard to teach these kids that they need to follow the rules?? It is not easy to teach you children to do the right things when the bad kids are finishing first and come up shining! This is not only in the public schools…I know of several situations in private schools that similar things have happened but money talks. Seriously, what are we teaching these kids? How is preparing them for their future? How as a parent should I tell them to follow rules when nobody else does and its ok? What about the law?? Should we teach our kids that they can pick and choose which ones they feel like following?? How much more as a parent can I do when I am fighting the peer pressure and the school system!!!!!!
After reading your post and judging from the composition (lack of coherent thought) and the many grammar errors – I think it is best to leave the education of your children to others.
MACG: Talk about a bitchy statement. We get it; you are so superior to all of us. What you are doing is ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM, attacking the speaker instead of what she said. This is a real mother who is trying to do the right thing for her child when the country is being torn apart by tea party politics who rather destroy the president (and the country along with him) than save the economy. Try having some compassion and understanding.
“Adjustments’ to a grade happen throughout the system due to meeting required percentages by a school. I know of a high school teacher that had a student that wasn’t going to graduate because of their class.
Parent went to the principal. Teacher was asked to let the student ‘make up’ all their missing work from 3rd quarter…during 4th quarter! Student graduated.
The teacher’s opinion-“it’s well known that when you are asked to do something of that nature by a principal, the option of saying no can have subtle or sometimes obvious repercussions for the teacher. It really comes down to deciding whether you want to have that battle with an administrator who thinks it’s a legitimate request and a parent who is comfortable with the lesson they are teaching to their child (scream and yell and you can get what you want, even if you didn’t earn it). In the end, it can only turn into an attack on your teaching instead of the accountability of the student to do the required work”
My observation over time is that there are many (but not all of course) parents who have long work hours or two jobs (or even a social agenda of their own they pursue) which makes them a mostly absent parent, specially at the high school level when a child is declaring their independence. Then when it starts falling apart and their child won’t graduate or has gotten into trouble, they come roaring up to school to make things right. Not to teach a life lesson about consequences, just fix the problem according to their satisfaction. In my most blatant experience I have had a student say to me that they “want their grade changed to a higher one and if I didn’t change it now their father would go to the principal and it would be changed then”. I stood firm on the grade but not without withstanding an intense attempt by the parent to change it. Some days it doesn’t seem worth the battle.
My daughter failed to graduate by .10 on a math final. How do you think this makes me feel? There were attendance errors by the dozen because she had to attend two different math courses to enable work study – their schedule. Parents were never informed of “attendance” issues- so many situations the school caused, but she paid dearly by .1! And now this, it makes me sick. Seven years later she refuses to get GED because of the foul taste she was left with. Thankfully, she’s very bright and well employed but still…
@PROUD TEACHER, while I respect your comments being “well employed” is no excuse for not to at least getting your GED. There are plenty of “well employed” people (pass tense) who suddenly were unemployed with MBA’s in recent years. At some point in time in her life she will need something showing at least HS equivalency whether it be for personal or professional accomplishment.
HCPSTeacher10, the “squeaky wheel gets the grease” is typical of HCPS. Not just with parents, but teachers too. All a teacher needs to do is call and scream (or worse lie about) at central office staff and they get what they want. I’ve seen it time and time again. There are good, decent, respectful people working in central office being verbally abused by HCPS teachers on a daily basis. And, 99% of the time, the teachers get what they want. Again, because there is no accountability. It’s much eaiser for Lawrence to give them what they want, then it is to hold them accountable and demand they act like professionals. We would never tolerate that kind of behavior from our students!
@ WAKE UP PEOPLE – Given the structure and past reputation of the HCPS Central Office Administration, I find your claim hard to believe. However, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, if you are willing to provide us with specific details of several of these daily abuse cases of Central Office Administration staff by teachers. Also, how are you aware of this? If this is indeed happening, I would hope it is investigated. Harassment in the workplace should never be tolerated.
DecoyDude, two very recent examples: a health/PE teacher that was to be reassigned to Bel Air Middle that didn’t want to go there and a music teacher that was so disruptive she was removed from the school. The health/PE teacher was so verbally abusive to a central office staff member he literally brought her to tears, then he wrote a scathing letter full of accusations to Tomback. None of the accusations were true, there was no investigation and there was no apology to the staff member. Instead Lawrence referred to the teacher as “professional”, people were told to put him in an assignment where he would be “happy” and (you guessed it)he’s now at Fallston HS. Why wasn’t he placed at FHS to begin with? Because there wasn’t an opening until another teacher at FHS was reassigned from teaching health to PE and then “convinced” to retire.
As for the music teacher, she was such a disruption to the school she was removed mid-year. In the meantime, her teaching certificate expired because she hadn’t completed the coursework that was required to renew it. She’d had 5 years to take the courses, but her first response was to lie and say the central staff never notified her. Fortunately, CO staff was able to prove that she had indeed been notified a number of times. The proof was not the result of any investigation, but rather the need of CO staff to cover their backs against these accusations. There was no apology or accountability for the teacher. At that time, she could have retired. However, instead the union suggested a position be “created” so she could ride out the last 6 months of the year. Bill Lawrence, the teacher and the union agreed to a deal. Six weeks into the new assignment, the teacher changed her mind, costing the taxpayers thousands in legal fees and unecessary salary/benefits.
As for harassment in the workplace, there are no internal investigations because those that can do something about it are the very ones that have created the current culture of “keep the teachers and union happy at all costs”. The real investigations are typically done by the EEOC, the Maryland Commission on Human Relations or in response to civil suits. Care to guess how much that costs taxpayers?
If you don’t like how Lawrence handles things you can blame that on Tomback and the remaining members of the BOE that approved his hire. Based on public comments and observations it appears that not all current members of the BOE are supportive of Lawrence or Tomback.
I must have missed that memo on “keeping the teachers happy at all costs”, as a fifth year teacher in Harford County, I have gone without a cost of living step raise for 4 years and had my health insurance benefits decreased and the cost of the policy increase, basically I made 36,000/year 5 years ago, and now I net 38,000 after accounting for deductions. This for a job I spend at least 50-60 hours/week doing, and doing well. I have just described the situation of most of HCPS teachers. I am sorry you have experienced some of the spoiled, lazy and dishonest ones, but I truly believe they are the rare exception. How central office responds to them is the same way unfortunately that they respond to failing students and parents, forget accountability, brush it under the rug, make the numbers look good and keep the whiners happy. That is a problem of Central Office leadership, not the teachers. To our leadership, money is the bottom line, we need that funding, so we can continue to spend thousands of dollars on technology that teachers have neither the time or training to use, and continue to hire more levels of educational policy makers and administrators who know little to nothing about effective teaching. The newest solution to fix the the many eudcational problems created by NCLB is the “Race to the Top” initiative, which purposes to pay teachers according to how their students perform on standardized assessments, without paying any regard to the initial abilities of the students being taught. If you could find a more effective way to drive people out of the teaching profession, I don’t know what it would be. I feel saddened and disillusioned that we continue fail our students with an educational system that ignores the facts of life, and sets them up for failure when they leave our building. Our policies do nothing to reinforce the principles that honesty, hard work and initiative produce success and their opposites produce failure. We do not illustrate that education is a priveledge and is important for its own sake, not just as a means to get a job. And we do not acknowledge that not everyone will achieve at the same level in all areas, and that there is nothing wrong with that fact.
As the wise Saint-Exupéry once said, “A civilization is not made strong by what is provided for it’s citizens but by what is expected.” As a long time HCPS teacher I have witness the rapid decline in what is expected of our students. Students are not held accountable for their behavior or their grades. Instead of administrators of parents asking the question, “What can this student do to improve their performance?” the question to the teacher has become, “What are you going to do to improve this student grade?” While there are many hard working students who still make teaching worth the effort, the number of students who can do nothing, come late to class or not come at all is increasing. Teachers are feeling less able to deal with these issues because administrators often do not enforce consequences to support the teachers and correct student behavior.
The school system is missing out on the larger picture of teaching citizens responsibility, pride from accomplishing a task well done, respect for teachers, the importance to being on time and the incredible good fortune American have to actually have a great public school system. Instead the life lessons being taught many students are that you can do nothing and still get by, if your parent complains you can just get our of that class or get your grade changed. Unfortunately this lack of expectations is not isolated to the school system but is a reflection on our society in general.
This article points out what is happening all over Harford County. Teachers are no longer respected or given the authority to judge which students have learned the material in their classes. The grading policy in Harford County already allows students to fail three quarters and still pass for the year. Until teachers are respected and given the support they need to teach success nothing will change.
The wonderful programs like “Race to the Top”, ‘No Child Left Behind” and “Performance based Evaluations” on teachers are disasters that promote this kind of system. This just causes school systems to fudge the numbers to qualify and receive more money so the local jurisdiction does not have to put in as much each year.
All of these programs should be scrapped and we should go back to traditional teaching, “rote learning” etc. It is obvious from the results that these wonderful ideas from our “trusted school leaders” do not work. We have continued to fall in the reading, math and science rankings for decades. When students cannot identify the highest court in the land, name the vice president of the US, identify the pilgrims ship (Mayflower) as “U-haul”, identify the first 10 ammendments of the US constitution as the 10 Comandments, we have serious problems!!!
There are seniors actually doing this. Not just a few but over half!!
Stop putting all these restrictions on teachers and let them teach and let students fail if they do not learn. It is part of life. Actions or lack of actions by individuals deserve consequences.
Enough. I’m getting off my wagon. This is easy to solve. We continue to make simple issues difficult. If students don’t have to learn to pass, then teachers don’t have to teach to pass them.
Your comments are exactly right, you should be the Superintendent of HCPS. These programs are ruining the school system, thanks for speaking out.
Teachers Union equals poor education. It’s that simple. It takes an “act of congress” to fire a stupid teacher, and there are more and more of them coming out from the “dregs” of urban Baltimore looking to “improve” their lives. Get rid of the Union, make teachers accountable, and don’t let anyone arbitrate for the stupid, lazy, or unethical ones. It’s pretty simple. Also, if they’re speaking a dialect that, although may be English, but is still partially incomprehensible, run like the freakin’ wind from them. Enunciation is critical to being able to convey information that others are attempting to learn. In this instance, to hell with multi-culturalism.
Hey Mike,
“Teachers Union equals poor education.” – This just isn’t true. There are far too many factors involved in getting a poor education. It is easy to blame the teachers or the union, but in reality, to blame the union for poor education is ridiculous.
“It’s that simple.” – No, it isn’t that simple.
“It takes an “act of congress” to fire a stupid teacher,” – It is difficult to fire a teacher. Not that difficult, though.
“and there are more and more of them coming out from the “dregs” of urban Baltimore looking to “improve” their lives.” – Wow, that could be taken so many ways. I hope you didn’t mean it the way it sounded.
“Get rid of the Union, make teachers accountable,” – Teachers are accountable. How about we make the students accountable. How about we make the parents accountable.
“and don’t let anyone arbitrate for the stupid, lazy, or unethical ones.” – If the teachers are bad at their jobs, get rid of them. Don’t punish all the great teachers for a few bad ones.
“It’s pretty simple.” – Its not that simple.
“Also, if they’re speaking a dialect that, although may be English, but is still partially incomprehensible, run like the freakin’ wind from them.” – What dialect of English is this?
“Enunciation is critical to being able to convey information that others are attempting to learn.” – There are multiple ways of saying various words. There are multiple regions of the country that speak the same English, though it ounds very different. Compare Boston to Atlanta to Green Bay to Baton Rouge. All a bit different.
“In this instance, to hell with multi-culturalism.” – Our country is the melting pot, founded on multi-culturalism. Are you saying to hell with our country?
Something more. Not all teachers are good teachers. However, unlike other professions, teachers face a unique challenge. They have to deal with a product that typically doesn’t want to be there. Imagine how it would be at an automobile repair shop if the cars(students) kept racing away from the mechanic(teacher) or the car’s owner (parent) didn’t change the oil in the car or give it gas or didn’t listen when the car started making noises. Why would you then blame the mechanic?
If you don’t have a teachers union with the union pay scale, how would you evaluate teachers and decide their pay? I guess you could base this on the administration evaluations; though if you did this, there would be problems with political and curriculum ideaology, problems with favortism, problems with animosity. Perhaps basing the salary on the scores on standardized tests? Well, not all subjects are tested, and really, there have been studies that show these standardized tests hinder education. Also, do you go by the scores the students gets compared to the average student or maybe how much the students increased their score from the last time? Well, if it goes by the average, I feel sorry for the teachers that teach the lower level kids and all the special educators. If it goes by the improvement, umm, if the student is already at the 99th percent, poor teacher doesn’t have much room to improve the student. And god forbid a student goes from a 99 percent to a 98 percent. That teacher would be strung up on the highest tree.
Anyways, have a nice day.
Paul
Paul: I could not agree with you more. You said: “How about we make the students accountable? How about we make the parents accountable?”
This is, I believe, the crux in the crucible of education. Unlike manufacturing, the “product” (in this case the student) is improved because education is an interactive process. The effort by the student into the process counts far more than all of the technology, teacher evaluation, or funds put together. Let me be clear and state that resources and teacher quality is critical, but student effort is more important. This can only be contributed by the student, and by extension, the parent.
Allow me to put this into the form of a formula:
Educational Success = (student effort * native intelligence) + (curiosity * joy of learning) + (parental support + study habits) + (excellent teachers + appropriate resources)/TV + video games + poor diet + absenteeism + teen angst