From Omar J. Simpson, Esq., Attorney-at-Law:
Given the shooting of Arizona Congresswoman Gabriel Giffords today, I think it is imperative that Executive Craig, County Councilman Dion Guthrie and the County Council, Jansen Robinson and leaders of the Democratic and Republican parties jointly call for an immediate rally aimed at toning down the negative political rhetoric in our country.
Such rhetoric can lead to violent consequences. Congresswoman Gifford is currently in critical condition along with 4 others…10 people are confirmed dead; shot by what appears to be a politically motivated mad man.
Today’s shooting, along with the attempted bombings in Annapolis yesterday, should illustrate to us all vividly that, now more than ever, it is time for us to put aside our differences, it is time for our leaders to call for calm, demand sanity, promote compromise and work for peaceful resolutions to our common issues.
Together, you, our leaders, must emphatically insist that violence is never the answer. Constructive dialogue conducted in a respectful manner is! after all, that is the heart of our Democracy. Without that truth, we would be nothing more than vigilante’s, warlords and savages.
Take this tragedy and show your leadership. Decry the violence. Establish a bipartisan commission to work collectively on our thornier issues. Set up a rally and explain to everyone that, though you have differences, you are unified in loving our Nation and what it stands for…Truth, Justice and PEACE.
Omar J. Simpson, Esq., Attorney-at-Law
ideas have consequences.
This bi-partisan crap about seminars on anti-violence are a feel-good, knee-jerk, fruitless reaction to a nut-case.
The shooters’ favorite books: Mein Kampf and Communist Manifesto. Any questions ?
perhaps Congressman Gifford’s vote against the Socialist Pelosi was set off this nutjob ?
your headline dredges out the fatal “moral equivalence” drivel which is, uh, killing us.
I wish you could walk in my shoes. I moved here ten years ago after living in Arizona, and New York before that. Not until my arrival in Harford County have I experienced the nasty self righteous and ignorant views of people who claim to be Christian but don’t mind at all attributing other people’s personal failures and deficiencies to their liberal or democratic political affiliations. Certainly the shooter was potentially deranged. And we will learn more about him in the coming days. Ascribing political motivations to his actions are premature. I aspire to always do the right thing and speak in terms that raise others to better themselves. I once talked with a young man contemplating a job offer at Benet Laboratories at Watervliet Arsenal. He was concerned about being associated with weapons of mass destruction and was uncomfortable with the idea of working there. I looked at him and simply stated it is unfortunate that warfare and violence are traits of human kind. And certainly working with things that are intended to destroy causes a person with a conscience to wonder why they are doing the job. But the important thing to remember is that we can’t change how people are, but what we can do is work to insure that the product we make will never ever harm the soldier or service member using it in training, or being required to use it in combat.
Express hatred towards others that are different all you want. Never having to learn about someone keeps you safe inside your own mind with no requirement to care about anyone but yourself. In the end, it makes you a very spiritually poor person.
You hit the nail on the head. “False and fatal Moral Equivalency”. A tragedy is an airplane falling out of the sky due to birds flying into the engine. This shooting is tragic because it was planned and executed by a terrorist.
Well, Bill, what set this guy off is pretty clear to me: the violent rhetoric on the right. Your comment belies your own sentiments in the matter and it’s clear you wish to God he was reacting to Giffords’ vote against Nancy Pelosi (who is not a Socialist…I’m telling you that as a dyed in the wool SOCIALIST, by the way). You’re certainly in no position to call “drivel” on this blogger’s thoughts. BTW, in case you need a little educationa bout who Loughner was, here’s a tip from the AZ Secretary of State:
http://img171.imageshack.us/f/jllrsc.jpg/
Enjoy the spectacle of Sarah Palin being thrown under the bus by the GOP as propitiation, by the way. Nothing like a good Caesarean blood-letting to cover the sins of the right (as though there were enough blood).
http://img171.imageshack.us/f/jllrsc.jpg/
He was a Registered Republican, Bill. Read it and weep.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/house/jared-lee-loughner-was-a-regis.html
He was a Registered Independent, Jennifer. Read it and weep.
And next time don’t believe a Photoshopped picture just because you want it to be true.
To quote the shooter
“In conclusion, reading the second United States Constitution, I can’t trust the government because of the ratifications: The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar.
No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver!
No! I won’t trust in God! ”
Or
“Terrorist
If I define terrorist then a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon.
I define terrorist.
Thus a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon.
If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem.
You call me a terrorist.
Thus, the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem.”
My point is this guy was a nut job and clearly not stable. He is not a nut job of the right or left in my opinion based on his list of grievences with society. He is in a whole new demension of nut jobs. I will reserve judgement on the MOM attacker until I read more about him.
Now if this quote from you, Bill is meant the way I am interpretting it then are you saying that this was deserved?
“ideas have consequences.
……
perhaps Congressman Gifford’s vote against the Socialist Pelosi was set off this nutjob ?”
Are you saying that it is OK to attack people because of your their politics?
CDEV, absolutely I am NOT say it is ok to attack people because of their politics.
The ideas of Mein Kampf and Communist Manifesto have consequences, i.e., killing is ok. The trail of blood from these books (as well as Origin of Species) is not only horrific but undeniable.
Name one assassin in the last 200 years who was conservative. You can’t. btw, they’re mostly all in their 20’s and chasing after false gods, they know evil exists but they take the approach that good is evil and evil is good.
Timothy McVey
Please explain the blood trail behind Origin of THe Species and how it is applicable here? The shooter did not profess to read it. He did Read Farenhiet 451, and Wizard of Oz and Animal Farm. Does that make them bad books?
Are you intending on responding to this or have you decided that you can claim anything you want?
here’s my point: are these actions of the Tuscon murderer more in line with the teachings of Marx / Hitler or of Jesus Christ ?
Note the rantings of the Columbine shooters:
– “Natural Selection. It’s the best thing that ever happened to the earth.”
– “Getting rid of all stupid and weak organisms”
With Communism, the state becomes god and they want to control everything.
Now, pick yourself up off the floor and go dunk your head (just for a second or two) to settle the steam coming out of your ears), how is this relevant ?
The idiot murderer was following the rantings of the left: we all come from monkeys, God is irrelevant, etc.
Bill, I’m sure your a nice guy and you’re just concerned that this abominable act will have a undue negative backlash on a cause that you deeply believe in, but trying to force this nut job into the political ideology you want him to be is doing nothing but hurting your cause.
I think everyone knows by now this guy was severely deranged. He hated everything and everyone associated with the gov’t and believed the gov’t was controlling everyone through mind control. He wanted nothing more and nothing else but to cause chaos and mayhem. He subscribed to no political ideology what so ever.
The Origin of the species quotes you use are not used in the context that Darwin wrote them. So to say Origin of The Species has caused people to go postal and kill people is a strech just like saying that a political ideology has caused this person to go postal.
John Wilkes Booth!
You do realize that “Mein Kampf” is a book written by Hitler AGAINST the ideas of a socialism, communism, a shared world community and government, and the welfare state? I wouldn’t call it a “leftest” book.
You know what’s truly evil? Politicizing this tragedy.
Have you read either book, Bill? It doesn’t sound to me as though you actually have, as that’s probably the most facile and frankly, poor summation of either I’ve ever read.
The lady doth protest too much.
Good idea. Let’s start with the Democrats. Does anyone remember the hate speech many had during President Bush’s terms as president. I remember them quite vividly and will never vote for a Democrat. Of course if any one saids anything about the current president, you are called a racist (double standard?). I doubt that the policial differences of the two parties had anything to do with the incident in Arizona. The shooter is a “nut” (plain and simple).
Did anyone create a map and a list of names of elected officials “targeted” in the crosshairs? Just asking?
Contrarian,
I think a better question to ask is did you graduate from grade school ? Because your logic is idiotic.
Uh, Sarah Palin had a map with a surveyor’s cross-hair, and she said “targeted” races. The Dem’s did the same thing.
Which president said “if they bring a knife to a gun-fight, we bring a gun” ? OBAMA
oh, here’s a few more OBAMA gems:
** Obama to His Followers: “Get in Their Faces!”
** Obama on ACORN Mobs: “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”
** Obama to His Mercenary Army: “Hit Back Twice As Hard”
** Obama on the private sector: “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“
** Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”
** Obama to lib supporters: “It’s time to Fight for it.”
** Obama to Latino supporters: “Punish your enemies.”
** Obama to democrats: “I’m itching for a fight.”.
Bill keep your name calling to yourself…. it doesn’t affect me. If I had the time or interest to do a google search I could come up with a list of toxic, illogical, irrational rhetoric from a host of pundits, elected officials on both sides since we are staying with the false equivalency model. If you think Sarah Palin was using a surveyor’s crosshair as an image for the targeted politicians then I would have to ask what grade school did you attend but I don’t care. All images of the map have been taking down by SarahPac since the shooting. I am not blaming Sarah Palin for she knows not what she does.
contrarian, do you condemn Obama’s violence-laden rhetoric ? C’mon, now, be consistent.
I can tell you have no idea what “surveyor’s cross-hair” really look like. While I believe the Palin map has nothing to do with the shooting, those are definitely meant to gun sights like from a scope. The cross-hairs either on a surveyor’s level or total-station don’t have the bullseye circles around them.
No party has a monopoly on the moral high road here. Both use shameless rhetoric. Those are not surveyors cross hairs you know exactly what was meant. That said BOTH parties are bad about the violent and angry rhetoric.
I will also say this nut was going to go off despite the rhetoric. Not saying the rhetoric could not set a nut in action but this one was way off our planet and was going off not matter what.
Are you quite serious, Bill. You’re equating these comments with placing crosshairs over areas governed by Democrats, accompanied by a list of their names? I’m sorry, but if that is so innocuous (as claimed by Palin’s minions), then why have the crosshairs graphics been removed, or (in some instances) replaced by surveyor’s marks? When you run around the country telling people to “reload”, in an environment which can only be described as a tinderbox, then there is clearly a causal link between your violent rhetoric and violent acts which you are tacitly underwriting by way of this language. Sharron Angle, also, has called for “armed insurrection”. Glenn Beck was shown to have directly influenced the Tides shooter, who was thwarted. Limbaugh was shown to have directly influenced Scott, Roeder, the Right Wingnut who murdered Dr. George Tiller, Church.
The Right owns this and its rhetoric, obviously, needs to be contained. When “free speech” violates the rights of others to live freely and to speak and live their truths, there is nothing free about it. What happened in Tucson happened to all Americans and your stubborn efforts to defect all responsibility for the Right are unAmerican. I call you out.
I applaud you Jennifer. Very well stated, detailed and on point.
“The advantage of being armed . . . the Americans possess over the people of all other nations . . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several Kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in his Federalist Paper No. 46.)
let the politicians tremble, the 2nd amendment to the constitution guarantees the first
I don’t believe politics had anything to do with this mindless violence. In the back of my mind I am wondering if he had a copy of “Catcher in the Rye” in his pocket.
Both my sons have been through firearms safety and training. Both my sons know where the shotgun and pistols are hidden.
Both my sons know about aiming at “center of mass”.
Both my sons would have no regrets shooting someone who is breaking into our home.
That being said, both my sons know that our Doberman and German Shepherd would most likely get there first.
I have to say, as a father of three, that is absolutely the most absurd, scariest, and disturbing thing I think I’ve ever read.
Obviously you have trained your sons in how to stop a home invasion. That said…..How is this relevant to the topic at hand?
you know as more people feel nobody is listening to their needs then more people will go postal. That’s what the fall elections should remind us, not about postal, but about a large chunk of people not ready to grin and take it just because Mr. Obama is a likeable guy. The economy still stinks, there’s a moratorium on oil production, our local government continues to increase “fees” on the cost of housing in the county, and politicians think people will just sit back, smile, get ripped off, and not crack? Everybody has a breaking point, thankfully, not too many go as far as this person out in Arizona. But I hope the public servants of the land – both parties – get off their high horses and really listen to the people they serve.
There is just so much wrong with your comment I don’t know where to begin. I’ll over look what seems like overtones of a threat and get straight to the main point. Your last sentence, – “But I hope the public servants of the land – both parties – get off their high horses and really listen to the people they serve.” – indicates that you either that a clear majority of people think the same as you or that those who think differently don’t count as people. This is a large country with a very diverse population. There is rarely a clear majority on any political issue of any importance. There is a certain level of either ignorance or arrogance to think that any person or movement can always claim to speak for the majority.
There was a majority that spoke out in the fall of 2010 – just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t make it go way or negate it’s reality. I don’t agree with everything any one political party has to say, there are bread and butter issues that transcend party rhetoric. I would think everyone in life would want better for their children than they have it. Now, the reality of the situation is our standard of living has been measurably and non partisanly falling, in large part because of ideology. Mr. Bush bankrupted the country with Iraq and Tarp and Mr Obama continues with sticking to an agenda which has the potential to cost us all in terms of dollars and sense. Following Europe’s lead into the economic abyss that is Greece and soon to be Spain should cause pause, no matter what the political belief.
Sorry, we can’t get away with sweeping this under the rug as just another lunatic “tragedy”. It was an ATROCITY and you can’t tell me that the evil and unhinged aren’t inflamed and encouraged by the vile, violence ridden rhetoric of extremists. Palins’ cross hairs, Angle’s second amendment threats- the teaparty yahoo who ran against this congress women and invited people to literally “take aim” against her by shooting a high powered weapon? And we don’t see any CONNECTION????
Point fingers at the other side all you want- but the fact is two wrongs have never, ever made a right. If we want all people to be treated with respect than we must reject disrespectful- and worse- speech and action, no matter where it comes from. ENOUGH!
The Arizona teabaggers have come out with a statement saying they will not change their toxic rhetoric. It is truly a sad day when our elected officials cannot go out and be amongst the people. It is their job to meet with their constituents. Now we will have less access to them at a time when we need more direct access to them.
Hey, contrarian,
why do you use a gross sexual term to describe 1/2 the country ? I thought “vitriol” was bad, yet you perpetuate it.
What is gross and sexual about it? Please explain?
Contrarian, I’ve been in a locker room and in the Army and heard a few salty terms before, but never teabagger before Anderson Cooper, CNN idiot, started using it.
Google it and then let me know how “neat” it is to call people who simply want government to get off our backs a gross sexual term.
The Tea Party doesn’t represent half the country. They don’t even makeup half of the conservatives in the country.
Dan, I guess the shellacking the Tea Party invoked on Obama had nothing to do with the Tea Party, huh ?
What’s your beef with the Tea Party ?
I’ve got nothing against the Tea Part’s main message. Cutting the debt, shrinking the gov’t, and return to fiscal responsibility (even thought I don’t think we’ve had a fiscal responsible gov’t since Truman and he was a Democrat). It’s their method. There’s a lot of anger and hate in that group, and the fact that everyone, even some Tea Party members, initially thought this was done by some fringe Tea Party nut job is proof of that.
By the way I would say the Tea Party actually hurt the overall larger conservative push during the election than helped it. It’s because of the Tea Party that the Republicans didn’t win the Senate too.
How do you figure 1/2 the country is a Tea Partier? Maybe 20% at best!
Bill I was being sarcastic about the term “tea bagger” but it went over your head. I know exactly what it means which is why I used it. The tea baggers where the FIRST to use the term and I have never dropped it. Notice I said Tea Baggers and not Republicans? The tea baggers are in a class all by themselves. Good night.
Contrarian,
anyone who uses tea-bagger in this context is using a gross sexual term to demean tea party members, and you know it. t’s known as an ad hominem attack, since you can’t argue on the issues.
The context of this article is vitriol, yet you use an incendiary and untrue reference to normal Americans. Nice.
What is normal. Who is to decide what is and is not normal? I am offended by your attempt to turn this in to a political issue and not actually condem the act. I think I pegged your first post right on. You think some how that since this was a democrat she deserved to be shot. You are the shameful one here!
CDev,
so you can’t define what is normal ? That in and of itself is an idiotic statement, because you use the term normal as if it means something.
Part of your blind, illogic rage is that you can’t read and discern. I condemn this murderer and I condemn people who rush to blame the right for this mass murder.
Oh, do you condemn those who expressed violence at Bush and Palin ?
Read this before you spew your drivel.
http://bigjournalism.com/dloesch/2011/01/09/the-blame-game/
Yes I condem BOTH sides. I have said it before and I will say it again. You however seem to think that she had it coming.
By the way to say one political belief represents Normal Americans and the other does not is just concieted. This was my point. This is what you have been doing.
Dan,
I guess the reply level has reached it max.
you must be listening to CNN, NPR, Keith Olberman, Rachel Maddow, etc. if you think the Tea Party is “full of hate”. You believe a lie.
I was at the Sept 12, 2009 Tea Party rally in DC. Were you ? It was as peaceful as anything, with at least 100,000 people.
I was at the Glenn Beck “Restore America” rally Aug 28, 2010. Again completely peaceful. Were you there ?
Oh, give me one example of “hate” from the Tea Party. One will do.
I was there in DC too. My dad had flown in to go and I went along to make sure he didn’t get lost or anything. I’d say about 80% were nice reasonable people, 10% were pushing the line of being respectable and reasonable, and the last 10% were the dregs of humanity. All groups have fringe elements. The problem with the Tea Party is that not only does it seem that no one is trying to keep the fringe in check but they are actually encouraging them.
Dan, that’s some pretty good statistics you have, were you counting ? What I saw in both cases were 100% reasonable people, it was like going to a picnic of people enjoying themselves. I saw nothing like “10% pushing the line” and “10% dregs of humanity” – not even close.
Uh, do you have ONE example that I asked for ?
While in D.C. I saw a guy holding a sign saying something like, “no half-baked healthcare from a half-breed president”,
-and I actually saw the famous sign of the African chief with Obama’s face with “NOBAMACARE” across it.
-and I saw a new report out of a local New York State news station where a Tea Party supporter BOOed a lady in a wheelchair when she was talking about how the new Healthcare reform would help her.
-and I saw a couple of guys standing on at a corner here in Bel Air with a poster of Obama as Hitler with something about ObamaCare sending millions of babies to the gas chambers.
Those are just the ones I’ve seen and can remember off the top of my head. I’m sure I could find more if I Googled it.
-oh and I forgot when those two Tea Party supporters pushed that girl down during the elections in Kentucky and stomped on her head.
-oh and what about the whole “If Brown can’t stop it a Browning can” and “Second Amendment solution” slogans that suggest if all else fails we can always use guns to get what we want.
How about the Tea Party candidate who lost the New York Governor’s race and his threatening to take a bat to his opponent after he lost! That sure sounds hateful to me.
Or this guy
http://ashvegas.squarespace.com/journal/2009/7/5/asheville-tea-party-sign.html
“I own a gun and I didn’t bring it yet” Sure sounds nice and picnic like!
Some of you lefties are unbelievable. By all accounts this guy was a left wing communist pot head and has no affiliation with the Tea Party Movement. Whatever his motives, he should be executed quickly.
Of course, he’ll probably get off, and become a liberal professor somewhere like Bill Ayers of the Weather Underground.
Never said he did have a conection with the right or left. He was a nut plan and simple!
He was also against the New Currency, The New Language and The New Constitution. He described himself as a concous dreamer and Felt the government was controlling his grammar.
Looking at the list of books that he said were his favorite the ones that are more political are all over the political spectrum. He has “The Communist Manifesto” on there along with “Mein Kampf” and “We The Living” which argue against communism. I think this guy knew nothing about politics and probably didn’t read any of the books on the list, but thought the list would make him look smart. He probably picked that rally based on nothing else but opportunity.
He also had Animal Farm which demonstrated the flaws with Communism and it’s evolution into Totoletarianism. This guy was not right or left he was just crazy.
I agree. I doubt if he read any of those books. Reports coming out show that he definitely had a grudge against Congresswoman Gifford. More details will emerge as time passes. The story about the little 9 year old girl who was killed is so incredibly sad.
I think with all this rhetoric we should just ban rhetoric, huh ? so much about “free speech”, and Hillary saying ‘the greatest form of patriotism is dissent”.
Oh, thanks for the incidents of the tea party goof-balls. That just proves that the tea-party is all nuts, right ? and who IS right ???
oh, I saw some Christians who sinned. Therefore, Christianity is bad, using your infantile logic.
No one said that all Tea Partiers are like this. Dan I believed estimated it based on a rally he attended with his dad at about 10%. YOU said it was 0% and asked us to prove it existed. We did. Admit you where wrong this is now the second time you asked for examples claiming none existed and they have been provided.
You asked for examples.
And by no means do I think that the few over-the-top loud mouths fringe elements represent the group as a whole. My dad is a Tea Party supporter and a nicer more rational guy I don’t think I could ever meet.
My point was the Tea Party has a problem with some of its supporters in the fringe and instead of trying to quell them they seem to be encouraging them.
so, Dan, thanks, yes, we’ll confiscate all guns and then violence will stop. But then what about knives ???
I never said anything about taking guns away from anyone. I was just pointing out that it’s not a nice thing to threaten to shoot someone just because they have a different point of view.
The psycho isn’t either right or left wing. He is an extremist period-all are bad. Why is he still alive and not shot on the spot? The news said today after talking to him “he appears to be mentally unstable” ?!?!?! REALLY – wow, solid work guys….who would have thought that – He shot 6 people, not just the Congresswoman – don’t get me wrong I feel awful for her and her family. I feel awful for the other 6 victims and their families not even mentioned and especially the family of the 9 yr old girl who was killed. This isn’t about a political power struggle – it’s attempted murder – and now murder. Political rhetoric didn’t make this psycho, it’s been brewing in him for years apparently – Shame on all of you for bickering about which political belief is responsible – don’t flatter yourselves – it’s not about your parties – it’s a psycho.
I believe you’re absolutely right. No one know what his motives were but I won’t be shocked if he didn’t just pick Rep. Gabrielle Giffords’ meet-and-greet based on nothing else but chance.
Dan, have you read the evidence of the murdered tracking her since around 2007 ? how about one of his friends / acquaintances who when he heard Giffords had been shot, instantly sensed (correctly) that it had been the guy.
Chance ? even without this knowledge, you have deny reality to think this was “by chance”.
I posted that before I heard about the evidence they found at his house, but still after reading everything they found and interviews with some of his friends there doesn’t seem to be any clear reason why he did what he did. And I think that’s the point. He’s delusional. He’s insane. I doubt his motives and actions will ever make any since or have any rationality to any normal sane person.
Dan, c’mon, now, be real. this was a premeditated murder.
You can look at the face of evil and say, “He didn’t really mean it, he wasn’t in his right mind.”
And your 2nd fallacious argument is that we can’t make a reasonable determination as to the motive. My guess is if you look at his childhood / upbringing / teenage influences we’ll get a sense. What do you think ?
Bill, I don’t think so. The guy obviously did it and should be punished fully for it, but I think you’re underestimating exactly how bizarre an insane person’s mind actually is. More than likely this isn’t someone who’s mind was distorted by childhood traumas or experiences, but someone who’s mind was never right in the first place. People who are disturbed view the world differently than everyone else. Anything can have an unexpected impact on them with unpredictable results. The guy literally thought the gov’t was controlling everyone’s mind through complacency and grammar. He’s not “troubled”, he’s insane.
CDEV,
well, the origin of the species “logic” was what the Columbine shooters used, are you denying that ?
seems like you’re really sticking up for Chucky Darwin. How many weeks did he spend in the Galapagos to come up with his theory ? I’ll save you the research: 2 measly weeks.
I never heard that Darwin caused the COlumbine shooting. I thought the guy did it because he was picked on.
Secondly Darwin and his Origin of the Species is more then observations in the Galapagos. It is sound science.
cdev,
“darwinism is based on sound science” – bwa-ha-ha-ha
so then you agree your ancestors are monkeys ?
Darwin never said that. Darwinism is not the science of Darwin. Have you read Origin of the Species or studied The theory of Evolution by Natural Selection Darwin proposed in that book? Have you studied Hardy-Weinberg equalibrium? I don’t think so based on your comments. Evolution and Natural Selection are sound scientific concepts. The person who put the monkey label falacy was William Jennings Bryan. Darwin never stated that!
Mr. Dan, I have two sisters who are twins, both schizophrenic. I’ve been around mental hospitals for 20+ years. (Go ahead,everyone, make your joke) They tend to be non-violent.
you overlook evil and where it comes from. I haven’t heard this guy was “in and out of mental institutions” since he was a teenager – that might make a difference. He graduated from high school. He was accepted into college.
Was Jeffrey Dahmer insane ? Do you know his upbringing ? I’ll won’t make you look it up: an absent father who spent no time with him. is that an excuse ? No. Is it relevant ? yes.
you fail to acknowledge that this WAS the result of a sane, yet depraved person. Again, using your logic, no murderer is sane. Convince me otherwise.
He never graduated from high school. He was never accepted into college. He was accepted into a program ran by a local community college to help high school drop outs and was then kicked out after having to be forcibly removed from class. The school would not let him continue with the program until he saw a doctor and was cleared as not being a danger to either himself or anyone else. He never got that note. There are a lot of interview with professors or student who knew him at the community college that describe him as being deeply disturbed.
OK, How about this for the Big Question: Do sites that allow anonymous posts contribute to the cure – or the problem. Not choosing sides here just curious. Of course these sites and news outlets all profit from views so is it in their best interest to be inflammatory?
btw @ Bmore Bill: Charles Lollar was in Bel Air holding up a tea bag a few years ago. Literally! Also, wasn’t there a Tea Party rally attendee that spit on legislators as they tried to enter the Capitol Building not too long ago. Either way, I’m sure the ownership of this site is thankful for your clicks. Who is the ownership of this site? Can’t find it anywhere. Hmmmmm.
Hey Ampox, let me get this straight. The tea bag represents the BOSTON TEA PARTY, and you’re implying that Charles Lollar’s use of this prop gives license to use a gross sexual term to smear HALF THE COUNTRY ? That’s non-sensical.
Again where do you get that the Tea Party represents Half the country?
Cdev, don’t you have anything better to do.
Well, let’s see, the Dem’s just got shellacked by the Tea Party, gaining what, 60+ seats in the House ? or was it more ?
oh, and 18 state legislatures were taken from the Dem’s, read it and weep here, http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=525539
and what is it about the Tea Party’s platform you seem to have a problem with ?
This post reinforces the fact that the Republican Party has been hijacked by the Tea Baggers…I mean Tea Party. This is a problem for the Republican Party and here it is in Black and White. Back in November 2010 the Dems were shellacked by the Republican Party with the Tea Party picking up a respectable number of seats NOT the other way around. The U.S. House of Reps and many state legislatures were taken over by the Republican Party. The Senate was lost because of the Tea Party. Is the Republican Party synonymous with the Tea Party? One might conclude that it is.
CDEV…come back. You are being dragged down the rabbit hole. No good can come of it and I for one enjoy reading your posts.
Well the Tea Party did not win 63 House seats. Republicans picked up 63 house seats. SOme of those are not Tea Party Republicans. Many in fact. Even if we buy your argument that they are synonomous then explain how you get half when half the country is not even registered Republican? Most of the country is made up of independents and moderates!
Next what about the Tea Party do I dislike? Well I have explained this before. I like the Fiscal Conservatism. What I do not like is the use of money from rich billionares financing it. The Koch brothers etc. I do not think they are genuine. I would be more supportive of the Tea Party if they broke away from the GOP.
Synonymous meaning that obviously some members of the Tea Party can’t distinguish the Republican Party from the Tea Party. I agree the majority of the country is moderate or independent.
A survey of registered voters nationally who vote find that about 30% always vote for the Republican 30% always vote for the Democrat and the remaining group or 40% vote for differing parties at differnet times. This is the Moderate/Independent group.
Synonomous like being the same entity. They obviously are not. I am a registered republican but am not a TEA Partier. There are many more like me. I did not like it when the Religious Right held the GOP hostage and do not like it know that the TEA party is attempting the same move.
I understand your position and I partly agree with you. However, in reading Bill’s post he obviously doesn’t make a distinction between the Republican Party and the Tea Party which is why he believes the Tea Party won in November. This is not uncommon. You stated “Synonomous like being the same entity. They obviously are not”. Unfortunately, perception is often reality and it IS perceived by many that the two are one and the same. Synonymous. I understand your position in stating they are not. I understand but obviously the Tea Party doesn’t.
Cdev,
you are the one who is blind with rage, and you can’t see straight because of it. There is no way on God’s green earth can you conclude I said or implied she had it coming to her.
So stick it, now you can go call the nanny police that I’m being mean.
Plus you again can’t quote me accurately. I said the tea party represents normal Americans. Is that incorrect ?
Like I said, take a hike, you idiot.
The Tea Party is made up of Normal americans but does not represent all normal americans. Their are plenty of Normal Americans of all sorts of ideologies.
PLease explain then what you meant by these two statements
“ideas have consequences.”
and
“The shooters’ favorite books: Mein Kampf and Communist Manifesto. Any questions ?
perhaps Congressman Gifford’s vote against the Socialist Pelosi was set off this nutjob ?”
I ask again because I am not the only one who seems to have taken it that way!
Cdev,
if you don’t understand the logic behind “ideas have consequences”, it’s not worth my time to continue.
But I will. Let’s say you believe the idea that your ancestors were monkeys, that the earth was created “by chance”, and that God does not exist. There – that’s an idea that the United States has bought into.
And the consequences are ?
Anybody with any sense knows that you cannot rationalize the behavior of an insane individual. Insane individuals cannot rationalize their own insane behavior. Their political affiliation doesn’t matter, and neither do the books they read–they don’t matter any more than what they ate for dinner or their favorite color. In the end they will find a reason, that isn’t based upon reality, to commit an act of insanity after channeling a course for such an act inside of the confines of an insane mind. If it mattered that he’s a Republican, then I suppose I and other Republicans just haven’t gotten caught for some horrible crime committed that was in the news but the case went cold. Give me a break.
Hey, Dr. Angie, did I say that you cannot rationalize the behavior of an insane person ? No, I did not, so you give me a break and get off your high horse.
My point is he’s DEPRAVED. That’s different than being insane. We label errant (and abhorrent) behavior as insane when it’s not that at all.
are you saying murder is only done by insane people ?
Contrarian,
I assume you think you have the moral high ground, so once again, why is it that you use a gross sexual term to describe a movement made up of normal Americans ?
what’s that about being civil ?
Something that might explain BILL IN BALTIMORE’s rants on this thread.
Emails are starting to surface from Tea Party groups urging supporters to describe the shooter in Arizona as “a leftist lunatic” as much as possible and not to back down at any cost. It seems they’re worried they might face a negative backlash.
“Clinton used the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing to “blame conservative talk radio, especially Rush Limbaugh” and “The tactic worked then, backing conservatives off and possibly helping to ensure a second Clinton term.”
and
“The left is coming and will hit us hard on this. We need to push back harder”
Oh, Dan, now I’m slinking back in my chair, since you really put me in my place. I’m sorry. I won’t do it again, make you mad and stuff.
Oh, I guess you never heard of Saul Alinksy’s tactics. Pity you, you’re what’s known as in Communism as “a useful idiot”, the people who stick up for things they know nothing about. Take a look at David Horowitz’s website, maybe you’d learn something about that the godless left is trying to do. Here, I’ll make it easy on you, http://www.newsrealblog.com/
Bill Ayers – Weather Underground – Obama’s Buddy….
Just sayin…..
Wikipedia says: “Teabagger, a term for Tea Party movement participants”
…I suppose that HALF THE COUNTRY thinks your a teabagger. Wear it proud.
btw, at that Lollar event in Bel Air where he dangeled his tea bag in public, it’s ironic that I couldn’t see anyone but white people in the crowd as the camera panned the audience. I guess the OTHER HALF OF THE COUNTRY is where the ethnic people are. I think that you are incapable of walking away from this page. If you’re so sure of yourself and HALF THE COUNTRY agrees then why does what others think make you so mad?
Wikipedia clearly shows the word is a pejorative.
Tea Party Teacher
Actually no, while I’m not disagreeing, it doesn’t mention anything about it being a pajorative. I cut and pasted directly from Wikipedia.com and the only thing else that it said under politics was a mention to tea bagging which was referenced to Tea Party rallies!
In 2009 Oxford dictionary listed it as a finalist for “word of the year” They said this:
—“Having deliberated carefully over the word-usage evidence, Oxford’s lexicographers are confident in their judgment that “teabagger” the political term stands distinctly apart from “teabagger” the vulgar term.”
There’s lots more broadly accepted sources for this that I’m sure anyone can find on their own. Anyway, pajoritive or not, seems like the term is here to stay. Much like douche-bag doesn’t usually refer to a feminine hygiene product, most folks think of a teabagger as a political activist rather than someone who well… you know.
So based on your user name and the above information, it would mean that it’s generally accepted that you teach people how to go tea bagging. Let your freak flag fly my friend!
This fellow is just a deranged killer that knows not the rule of law, civil discourse or obedience. I don’t think it helps to label him right winger or left winger…the fact is that none of these two political sides would seriously support or condone this behavior…his political affiliation or lack of it does not mean anything that would be significant or important.
The pathetic liberals thought they had conservatives nailed on this one until they found out the deranged shooter was a Lefty, natch. Have these whackadoodles forgotten that President Obama himself announced his entry into politics in the home of American terrorist Bill Ayers, who bombed United States government buildings? Oy vey!
I see you got the email too.
Dan,
Do you have any facts to add to the discussion other than your opinion? You really seem to be a Parrott for Keith Obermann, Chris Mathews, Ed Shultz, and the Rachael Maddow.
Bill Ayers – Weather Underground – Obama Advisor – Just facts Dan, Just Facts.
The facts are fairly simple. Jared Loughner is severely delusional. He believes in a vast gov’t conspiracy to use mind-control, through complacency and grammar, to stop the populous from overthrowing the gov’t. He’s nuts. He has no political leanings or a believer in any political idology. If anything he believes there should be any kind of gov’t at all. It seems he targeted Congresswoman Gabriel Giffords because he was upset that at a meet-and-greet three years ago she didn’t answer his question, “What is government if the word government doesn’t have a meaning?”
Again this guy is nuts, and unless I’m reading this thread wrong, everyone is perfectly willing to just leave it at that except for the few Tea Party supporters. I’ve been racking my mind trying to figure out why Tea Party supporters just won’t let it go. Why are they continuing to force the issue of his political standing when nobody no longer cares? The I saw a copy of one of the emails being sent out by Tea Party groups urging all supporter to take to the airwaves, phone lines, and internet to describe the shooter as “a leftist lunatic” as much as possible and not to back down at any cost.
Then it all made sense.
There seems to be a consensus at this point that Jared Loughner was not influenced to commit his horrific acts by a political group.
Therefore those politicos that are trying to make political points and demonize their opposition should stop.
Finally, the “Political Correct” crowd that has begun to attack, wage war, do battle and target metaphors should also stop, because metaphors don’t kill people, people kill people.
Porter
This guy is not right nor left he is all over the map. Fiat Gold standard Currency. Illegal actions because of the new constitution. He is just a loon. I would not pin him to either side.
Mr. Simpson here’s an idea for you: Get the phony Just4Peace crowd, who used to litter the courthouse grounds in Bel Air decrying the war dead when President Bush was in office (but mysteriously disappeared as soon as Obama took office) to orchestrate your rally. Ah, the unmistakable stench of liberalism.
Well written, Dan and CDev. Unfortunately, BB has sucked you down the rabbit hole. Attempting to debate with a person whose agenda is the disruption of the discussion has hijacked the thread quite successfully.
My thoughts are that the day-in, day-out extremist ranting by talk-show hosts is stirring up a great deal of emotional antagonism. This does harm the ability of reasonable people on both sides of the political aisle to discuss issues and solve problems. (I say this because my housemate listens to them constantly, and I get a daily earful of the distortions and hate-mongering rhetoric.) It becomes very tiring to track down and clarify the sources of the hijacked facts and distorted logic.
More and more, it looks as though the people who just want to “be agin’ it” and are too lazy to think things through are using the talk show hosts to do their thinking for them. This then leaves them in the position to feel (with very stirred up emotions) righteous and superior.
My thought is that anyone who commits premeditated murder is insane. Insanity is defined by the Collins English Dictionary – Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition as “1. relatively permanent disorder of the mind; state or condition of being insane.” This shooter evidently has been planning for years. Trying to pin it on his political affiliation would be like trying to blame the Columbine killings on trenchcoats…
Or Charles Darwin
Cdev, your granddaddy says you forgot to bring him his banana and the Baltimore Zoo. And he’s asking for Kindle so he can read Origin of the Species and then he’ll be able to visualize his progeny – you.
You never answered my question Did you ever read Origin Of The Species? Did you ever study Evolution by Natural Selection?
Cdev, no, I never read Origin of the Species, but I have studied people a lot smarter than me (who do this for a living), like Dr. D James Kennedy. Have you watched “Darwin’s Deadly Legacy.”
Oh, and mr. Millions of years (or is it billions), exactly where is the fossil record that supports evolution. oops – not there, is it ? aw.
let’s see – punctuated equilibrium was made up to account for the fact that no fossils were ever found to confirm Darwin’s THEORY of gradual evolution. Methinks they keep makin’ things up.
Bill,
Dr. Kennedy has done plenty of great things (I always liked the fact that he welcomed skeptics, and tried to show them faith through the Bible and the historical record). That said, none of his degrees are in scientific fields. He was an English major for a bit when he was in college initially, and all of the degrees that he earned were theology degrees. That makes him an expert on faith (about which he wrote beautifully), but not the greatest source for scientific debate.
That lack of scientific background clearly hurt his argument against Darwinism. He just didn’t have the scientific background to argue against it, and his resulting argument was weak. Yes, Nazis used evolutionary concepts as an inspiration for their horrible deeds. They saw evolution as a tool that they could use, to manipulate the population by manipulating the gene pool. Blaming Darwinism for Hitler is no better than blaming the gun for the murder. You let Hitler and the Nazis off the hook far too easily by placing any blame on anybody or anything other than Hitler and the Nazis.
So Bill How would you know what the theory is about if you never read it and your most expert source is a theologist? I am not a Godless individual. As a point of fact I am Roman Catholic. I attend Mass regularly and believe in God. Science is not there to answer the same questions as faith. Evolution is simply a theory. Do you know what a theory is? Did you learn that in High School? It does not sound like it from your ranting and raving on the subject!
Judith,
you’re a bit late to the party, sweety.
exactly who are the “extremist ranting talk show hosts” ? let me guess: Rush Limbaugh is on your list.
You say that by me listening to the talk show hosts I feel very stirred up, righteous and superior.
– kind of like you are feeling right how how, Miss holier than thou.
“anyone who commits premeditated murder is insane”
– first off, use used the word to define it, that’s pretty silly.
Oh, Miss Holy-Morality, should we ban pornography ? I think we should.
Look at the definition of insanity according to the Collins English dictionary above, “a relatively permanent disorder…”
Wasn’t referring to you when I said that the talk show hosts are making it more difficult to have rational discussions. If you put yourself in the lazy-thinkers group, it’s ok by me.
As to the rest, looks to me like you’re just trying to stir up trouble.
Judith, I’m not trying to stir up trouble, I’m just mean. Ask the others here, they’ll tell you.
I Left,
not sure where to begin with to dissect your mischaracterization of what I said.
First off, in “Darwin’s Deadly Legacy”, PRODUCED by D. James Kennedy, he introduces it and then lets the SCIENTISTS speak, like any good leader would. So your entire “Kennedy’s not a scientist” is a pitiful response to what I said. This is also an ad hominen in that you attack the character / qualifications without addressing the substance.
Secondly, where in the sam hill did you get the notion that I let the Nazi’s “off the hook” ? That’s a non-sensical conclusion based on what I said.
Let’s go back to the very beginning of this comment thread:
“ideas have consequences”.
And the ideas of Marx and Darwin can be directly traced to
– the robber barons (who we know everyone hates)
– the vile treatment of the Australian aborigines
– Communism
– Hitler
– the Columbine shooters
because . . . these ideas replace god with the god of the state, and further their starting point that our lives have no meaning.
and to tie this to the Arizona shooter, my point is also the wicked, depraved mind that man has, born into sin that we all are. If people can’t recognize that, then things like the Arizona shootings DONT’ make sense. But with that understanding, the shootings are quite easy to understand, though difficult to accept.
Oh, and the weak part of Kennedy’s argument was ??? I’m dying to know.
But thanks for the response.
Bill,
I’m not sure where all the vitriolic anger is coming from. I don’t particularly have a horse in this race, as I don’t have a science background either. My response, which was completely respectful and written in admiration of Dr. Kennedy’s work, was simply to point out that he is not an expert in any scientific field. I’ve read Dr. Kennedy’s books. I have not seen the video that you referenced. You did not cite the names of scientists in a video. You cited Dr. Kennedy, which is what drew my response.
Incidentally, your tone is the main reason that I don’t particularly like the Tea Party. I tend to agree with many of the Tea Party’s precepts, but the tone of your rhetoric is not something with which I wish to be associated. Some (though not all) Tea Party folks seem incapable of having a civil discussion, to say nothing of an actual debate. You have your ideas, and when anyone questions any part of those ideas in any way, your reaction is to make it personal, misrepresent, and insult. Far too many Tea Party people think that debate is stating an idea, and then stating the same idea louder if it’s questioned. There is no openness to the possibility that you may be wrong about any aspect of what you believe. That’s a dangerous trait for any political group to have, and until it’s addressed, it will marginalize the entire Tea Party movement (which, as I said earlier, would be a shame, since I agree with many of their precepts).
@ I Left, some people don’t care for condescending elitists who stereotype members of a particular group.
Porter, I left is not sterotyping. She is stating her observations and her opinions. I Left was not condecending nor elitist. No where has I Left claimed to be superior in any way.
Cdev, the very fact that I Left is moralizing to me proves my point ! That is, there is right and wrong and there is a standard for it.
and I Left ALSO proves my point about the original article, that is, “rhetoric” must be toned down, with the clear implication that it had a direct effect in Arizona.
then I Left goes on to extend me to the TEA PARTY when in fact I am my own person. So she’s going to go against the TEA PARTY because she doesn’t like one person !
I hope she doesn’t go to church, because I got news for her, that place is full of SINNERS.
Bill,
I never said that I didn’t like you. I don’t even know you. I said that I didn’t like the kind of rhetoric that was evident in your post. Nowhere did I try to connect it to Arizona. I made clear that this kind of rhetoric and approach to discourse was something I’ve encountered in many Tea Party minded folks, while also making clear that not all Tea Party members are like that.
Your tone is sarcastic, mean-spirited and closed to anything that even politely questions what you already think. I do go to church. I’m also aware that it’s full of sinners (myself among them). You may want to take a step back and re-assess yourself here. All I did was post a comment to mention that you might do better to use a different source (while praising that source for his work in his actual area of expertise), and you attacked me. If you intend to attack everyone who doesn’t agree with you 110%, then you will have a very conflict-filled life. In my church, we pray for people who have lost their way, while treating them in a civil manner. For us, that’s a key aspect of being a Christian. Mocking and insulting others for every imagined slight is a bit of an odd habit for someone proclaiming spirituality as his key trait.
Porter- By “I’m done with you,” I meant across all threads of the website. You aren’t here for discussion. You are here to stir up conflict for the sake of stirring up conflict. I refuse to feed your fire, and will no longer respond to your posts. I would appreciate it if you would give me the same consideration.
@I Left. your inability to make cogent arguments in thoughtful debates is truly your problem and it is not incumbent upon me to restrict my commentary simply because you disagree and dislike what I might have to say.
Porter
Cdev,
you fail the same test is “I left” – attacking the character / qualifications of the messenger instead of discussing the substance of the argument.
Let’s see, if I read Origin of the Species I’m going to come up with a different conclusions that scientists and theologicans whom I respect ? That too is non-sensical in that your implying I can never have an opinion about something I don’t have a Ph. D. in. That doesn’t pass the smell test.
Plus your idiotic response that “my most expert source is a theologist” is patently wrong. Oh, I’m so sorry, D. James Kennedy PRODUCED Darwin’s greatest legacy, he introduced it and then let the SCIENTISTS speak. I guess you didn’t know that
– oh, by the way, have you SEEN Darwin’s Deadly Legacy ? Hmmm, better not comment unless you have, right ?
Well, if your church says science and faith are separate, then you have two gods ! Science and God.
Do I know what a theory is ? That’s what your asking me ? Let me think . . . .thinking . . . thinking . . . hmmmm. You know, I don’t think I’ve EVER HEARD of that word before. Let me look it up and I’ll get right back to you.
Tell me, Mr. know it all, what does Intelligent Design attempt to do ?
You can have an opinion on what ever you want. That said a theologian is no more qualified as an expert on evolution unless you want a person with an Juris Doctorate doing your brain surgery!
Science is NOT God. I do not have two God’s. Science and Faith are attempting to address two different questions.
Intelligent Design simply attempts to intgrate Judeo-Christian’s Creation story with Existing Science. Also used as a way to teach Creationism in science class which is not where it belongs.
Again What is a theory? I am asking because you do not seem to be understanding some basic High School Science knowledge.
Cdev,
why don’t you just make your point on theory ? Let me see, you’re then going to har-umph me that scientists use theory differently than poor old laymen like me ? Like for instance, the theory of gravity ? or the theory of thermodynamics ? oops, they can be proven.
And the proof for evolution is ? C’mon, now, cough it up ? The facts, please.
Oh, oops again – your explanation of intelligent design is flat out WRONG. Did you read William Demski’s “Intelligent Design” book ? No ? Well, better not comment on it though.
I’ll give you a hint:
– something exists with purpose and obvious intelligence (like your eye)
– therefore it was designed and there is a designer
Intelligent Design is for the EXPRESS purpose of letting scientists be scientists and leaving the THEOLOGY out of the discussion, so that REAL science can occur without the “cloud” of theology.
Who is the designer is left to the theologians.
and oops again – wonder what the root word of theory is ?
First of It is the Law of Gravity and Thermodynamics is governed by many laws. They are not Theory. You want theory to mean a point of fact when any good HS kid knows it is a plausible explination for a certian phenomena. Theology is not part of Science and should not be confused.
Your ID summary essentially is a different spin. ID is a way of forcing the Bible into Biology and it doesn’t belong there.
No matter your opinion on Evolution Darwin never said man evolved from apes which you keep attributing to him.
Cdev, see, you can’t even discern a little sarcasm, that was my point, the LAW of gravity, the LAW of thermodynamics. I are a college graduate with a Bachelor’s of Science degree, concentration in Mathematics. And a Master’s Degree too !
Hey CDev, you believe a lie about Intelligent Design, you believe what Alan Colmes says about it. I just gave you the purpose of Intelligent Design from the book. Have you read the book ? That seems to be your standard before anyone can comment on anything.
Re: Darwin / evolution / your grandaddy is an ape, so you’re saying Darwin believes we were all created by God in His image ? Is that the point you’re trying to make ???
I couldn’t decern your sarcasam because your scientific literacy is questionable at best. You clearly are not familiar with Darwin’s theory and what it says and what is falsely attributed to it. You seem to not know the difference between a theory and a law. I too have a Bachelor Of Science in Secondary Education Biology and General Science as well as a Major in Biology and Enviornmental Science. I hold a Master’s degree to boot. What was your major for your BS? Mathmatics?
Cdev,
ok, so you’re a know it all on Darwin, good for you.
in all of this, you don’t STATE anything, you keep hiding behind this put-down mode that I don’t have a Ph. D. in Darwin, yet you won’t STATE YOUR CASE. I’d be happy to respond to something you say about it, but all you do is look down over your granny glasses.
Let’s see: hypothesis first, theory second, law third. How am I doing ?
and once again, the evidence for evolution is ? not the fossil record, is it ?
and uh, what’s that about irreducible complexity ? have you taught your students that ?
Cdev, pretty good, maybe you’re next job will be a detective.
but I can’t shake the feeling you don’t believe God created the world in six 24-hour days, and that you hide behind your degrees impressing people and saying that if they don’t have sheepskin to match yours, they aren’t worthy.
Perhaps one tiny piece of “evidence” for evolution ? Just one ?
I’ll send you a copy of my degree and transcipts, will that help. Send the address and I’ll get it right over.
Bill you still do not grasp a theory. You have simplistically stated something that is not that simple.
As to the creation of the Earth? Well I believe that God did it in 6 time periods. As many biblical scholars will tell you that The original word used in Genisis in it’s original language can have two meanings. One a period of time and the other to mean a day. Whatever God did he did in his time and far be it for me to confine the almighty to doing it in the way he saw fit.
As to your request for just one piece of evidence of evolution. If I provide you with one piece you will do what you have done on this thread before. Change the topic. You asked for one Conservative assasin and when provided you changed the topic. You asked for one example of hate from the Tea Party and when provided you changed the topic. You now ask for One example of evolution. I hypothesis that If I provide you with one example you will then change the topic. I further hypothesis that you want me to say the Fossill record because you have undoubtabley found some gem from a creationist website that will point out it is incomplete (which it is) That doesn’t make Evolution false it simply does not prove it conclusively, which is what science looks to do. As opposed to Faith.
So here is another example.
Evolution happens on a Macro and Micro scale. I am sure you know this. An example of evolution is antibiotic resistence in Bacteria. It happens. It is actual change over time in a species. As to Speciation that is MAcro evolution. That is a whole different ball of wax. But you know this don’t you?
“I are a college graduate with a Bachelor’s of Science degree, concentration in Mathematics.” What does that even mean? You can get a BS in almost any field of study. What’s a “concentration”? And why are you being so belligerent? You present yourself like some nut bunkered down in a shack out in the woods who does know how to interact with other people, but going by some of the things you’ve said I’d be willing to bet that your a pleasant enough church going fellow, who enjoys socializing with friends, has a loving wife for around 25 years, a couple of nice kids who are starting to make a life for themselves in the world, and a nice house in a subdivision probably with a playground or something like that near by where you hear the sound of kids playing and you enjoy it. Try not to be so hard. Being nice is not being weak or submissive.
Stop politicizing this tragedy. We all know what a well placed shot from a gun can do, so enough glamorizing violence with talk about what you would do if someone broke into your home. This tragedy is the action of a mentally unstable person. Instead of blaming any one political party, learn from this. Radio Show and TV Personalities that spew their rhetoric won’t stop b/c they offend anyone. My advice is to change the station. You can also contact the companies that advertise on these shows and let them know how you feel. You can also stop buying certain products as a message to that company. If you don’t like how certain politicians vote, communicate with their offices and/or stop re-electing them! Violence has no place in our society. Violence is not the answer.
Cdev,
I don’t know what to say. I even looked up “theory, hypothesis, law” multiple places. yet you can’t cough out what it IS. May I be blessed with your definition instead of you hiding behind your degrees and looking down on me ?
You believe God did it in six time periods ? Why don’t you believe what he SAID – six days? the language is clear. And your logic is twisted – you say “Far be it for me to confine God”, yet you are not “confining” him to six days, you are twisting what he said ! Have a look at Answers in Genesis if you want to understand.
uh, now who is being caustic with your tone ? Yes, Mr. Smarty Pants, I have heard of micro and macro evolution. such as the moths in England that went from white and “evolved” to black. But, ooops, they’re still MOTHS ! (and it was because of the soot that turned them black, no ?) oops again.
And micro evolution might be better explained as “adaption”, no ? yes, there is “micro evolution”. but a dog is a dog is a dog. maybe a wolf or a coyote or a poodle, but still a dog. you know, they were made “after their kind”, I think I read that in Genesis.
and as to speciation, I’m quite aware of that (that it DOESN’T EXIST). No animal has ever “jumped” species, and your lame euphemism is “that’s another ball of wax”, in other words, there’s no evidence !
Bill You again changed the subject.
But lets see. A theory is a scientific statement that attempts to explain observed phenomena. It is not a fact but the underlying facts are existant.
You demonstrated my point with the moths. That is natural selection. As the bacteria illustrate they evolve to change. Eventually when two populations evolve to a certian point they become different species like the Western Oriole and Baltimore Oriole are different species of the same bird. Darwin observed the same thing in the finches on the different islands.
You do realize that Genisis was not written in English? It was trnslated many times over.
Cdev,
all that hullabaloo on theory and that’s it ?
ok, the Western Oriole and the Baltimore Oriole are “different” – but they’re still BIRDS. One of them didn’t become a dog ! That’s my point. You’re avoiding answering the question of “macro evolution” and whether your grandpappy is an ape.
thanks for pointing out Genesis was not written in English, I had always thought the original text was Spanish. My pastor had said something about Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, but I’m like, who believes that ?
Bill of course one of them didn’t become a dog. That is not what evolution says. Evolution particularly when it comes to specieation is that when one animal is issolated in to different circumstances then they will evolve (change) as a result of that enviornment and become two different species. a bird is not a species but a class called aves which consists of ten thousand different species. You did learn about linean classification inf school? didn’t you?
Then perhaps you should explore the root words used to convey time periods in genesis? The literal day translation is not the only translation of the root. The word yom in hebrew has multiple meanings. Either way It is not my job to suppose what the almighty did and did not do. If he created in 144 hours so be it. If he used day as a ephamisim for long time periods fine.
Cdev,
my point on evolution, which I was pretty clear about, was on macro evolution and whether we came from apes or not, and whether one species jumped to another. It doesn’t look like we disagree on “micro” evolution, yet you continue to be mean to me and make fun, and that makes me sad – and MAD !
But in regards to day in the Bible, if you look at it PLAINLY and it CONTEXT, it means a day as we understand it. The reason people STRETCH it is because deep down they don’t BELIEVE God created the world / universe in 6 literal days, they fit it into THEIR OWN BOX of millions of years, since ultimately, they really DON’T BELIEVE God did it in 6 days, though there is tons of EVIDENCE that it was done in 6 days, and really no contrary EVIDENCE against it. The people who change the MEANING have their own BELIEFS in which the 6-day creation DOESN’T FIT, so then S-T-R-E-T-C-H it to millions – or is it billions – of years.
So while you deign to present yourself as “not knowing” what God meant, what is actually the case is that you ignore what he plainly said and “make up” your own version !
Bill
Originally you attributed the apes claim to Darwin and his “bloddy Book” That book makes no such claim. This seems to be our hang up. Macro evolution is the drastic change over time in a population. Usually this results in specieation but is not apes become people like you keep saying. It may mean a common ancestor between species in the same Famliy like primates etc. It could also mean extinction of less adapted species.
As far as Genisis. Beside the Bible, what other evidence is there of a 6 day creation? The bible is at best a third hand account of events which has been translated and retranslated into many languages by man, who by his nature is flawed. The bible is something we take on faith but scientifically is not a reliable evidence.
I also think that I am being no more mean to you then perhaps you have been. Do unto your neighbor….you know!
Yes, the Bible was translated many times over. For instance, “celibate” was actually “celebrate” and the catholic church has been changed ever since. The “word of God” is actually the words and stories of others regarding the life and death of Jesus Christ…you can place so many meanings and context to anything in the Bible, so in the end one has to either buy into some of it,all of it or just the parts you believe are true of truly translated as meant by the original writer. This applies to the Old Testament, Book of Genesis or Santa Claus.
Cisco,
so I would agree with you – “one has to either buy into some of [the Bible] or all of it”
wouldn’t one have to have divine knowledge to know which parts or true and which parts are not ?
Hint: the Bible is the inerrant word of God. If your belief system doesn’t match up to what you read, there’s something wrong with your belief system.
“this conversation about civility and our climate of hate is not only a useless one but also meant to discourage dissent.”
this conversation is a set-up”
Again, the larger context is to quell dissent by leaning on “civility”, and the implications extend far and wide.
Wow, I just wasted 20 minutes of my life reading all the back and forth between CDEV and Bill. Man, I need to get a hobby.
Sean, hey it’s fun ! But from my perspective, I keep learning things, as I do look up the challenges that Cdev presents. Gotta love Wikepedia !
Cdev,
>>what other evidence is there of a 6 day creation?
well, how about this: our 7-day calendar where the 7th day is a day of rest ? Hmmm. That seems to match up with the Bible.
for more on the language, go here, Answers in Genesis
Have you considered that multiple christian religions can not agree on which is the 7th day? Additionally other calanders from religions which do not have genisis amongst their sacred texts do not have a 7 day calendar.
Cdev,
you asked for evidence, and I gave it to you. Are you denying this is evidence “besides the Bible” ?
And did I say this was the only calendar in the world ? No, I did not.
It might bolster your argument if we DIDN’T have a 7 day week, but THE ENTIRE WORLD ABIDES BY THE SEVEN DAY WEEK, no ?
The seven-day week comes from the seven visible planets observed by Babylonian astronomers in ancient times. They counted the Sun and Moon as planets, since they moved in relation to the fixed stars. The French day names make this more obvious than English, which have borrowed the names of the corresponding Norse gods.
Pavel314,
reference please.
you all can deny all you want, but let’s simply look at the evidence:
– God created the world in 6 days, and rested on the 7th
– We have a 7-day calendar, and the 7th day is a day of rest
your arguments might make just a teeny-weeny more sense if the Bible said it took 9 days and now we have a 7 day calendar.
It’s kind of like people denying Jesus lived yet THE WHOLE WORLD operates on the FACT that it is the year 2011, based from – guess.
The entire world uses a seven day calendar now as a matter of practicality and conquest. This was not always the case. My point you made is the 7th day is a day of rest. What is the 7th day? Some say Sunday some Saturday. I would also say that this is not evidence of a 7 day creation but developed from the belief in a 7 day creation. From a science aspect evidence to prove it would need to be concrete. You claim that evolution is folly because it can not be proven. If you held religion to that same standard it wouldn’t pass muster without faith.
Bill,
Your whole argument is based on your own Faith — Faith that has no evidence.
Do you realize how self-contradicting you have been in all of these postings?
Cdev, it would help the conversation if you could choke out, “well, Bill, I see your point”, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
And why does the world use a 7-day calendar as “a matter of practicality” ? 8 days is too many in a “week”, 6 or 5 days is too short. 7 days has been the “practical” way to manage our lives. And – Holy Cow – God said it first !
Geez – “evidence would have to be concrete” – you mean like the calendars THAT EVERY HOUSE IN AMERICA HAS ???
Oh, so you want to go on the faith thing about religion and evolution ? It takes more FAITH to believe in evolution than it does in RELIGION !
I’m done.
Bill…
You’re done?
Thank goodness.
Bill the fact that I have remained in the dialouge should indicate that I see your points. I do not agree with them. The practicality is that we all use the same calandar now. That was not always the case.
I have Faith in the bible and in the existence of God. I just happen to believe the creation story is a euphamism and not a literal one.
I am not sure what the angle of the Earth’s Axis does to illustrate the existence of God.
As I said before it is not my place to question what? Science doesn’t try to answer these questions simply figure out how.
Cdev,
the angle of the earth’s axis (precisely at 23.4 degrees) has EVERYTHING with God’s existence:
– He designed it and formed it
do you think it happened without a designer ? something as magnificent as that ?
and I guess the “practicality” of a 7-day calendar that JUST SO HAPPENS to match up with the Bible is merely a coincidence, right ? God had it right when he started, and we’re back to his plan !
The other part where you divulge from reality is that SCIENCE doesn’t say ANYTHING. PEOPLE DO, and they’re BELIEFS are what GUIDE them. it’s just like the Intelligent Design question – God is assumed out of the equation, but why ? What if the facts of creation, etc. lead one to conclude there is a master designer ? shouldn’t SCIENCE acknowledge that.
I think we are on a tread mill.
So if it was 23.39586 degrees God could not have been the designer? There is no signifacance and it could have happened randomly. It does not prove the existence of God!
Again the christian calander which originated in Europe used a 7 day week because of the creation story. It spread because of conquest. The existence of a 7 day week does not prove the existence of God.
Cdev,
like I said, you can’t even take the larger point. It’s like you’re blind to what I am saying.
It’s non-sensical your response about the tilt of the earth. It doesn’t matter whether it was pi (3.14…) or 23.39586 or whatever. The point is that it’s at the EXACT angle that allows us NOT to freeze or burn ! You do know that right ? The point I was making was it’s DESIGNED. Do you seriously think this happened BY CHANCE ?
My point on the calendar is that OTHER VARIATIONS have been used, but it’s all gone back to the 7-days because, as you say, the practicality of it.
Further, you asked for evidence, which I provided. And you promptly dismissed both.
you can postulate all you want, but do you deny that this is evidence ?
Don’t forget, the 7 day/week calendar works so exceptionally well that every 4 years we cram an extra day in…
wait a minute… I just read that again… “The point is that it’s at the EXACT angle that allows us NOT to freeze or burn ! ” What? the angle of the axis gives us the SEASONS… less tilt would mean less variation and more… well, more… Are you referring to the Earth being in the “Goldilocks” distance region FROM the Sun giving us ideal conditions for life?
amazed,
I know, Leap Year comes like clock-work, every four years (except if it’s divisible by 100 (but not it its divisible by 400)).
isn’t it AMAZING how this works with the 7-day calendar ? Wonder how goofy it would be with an 8 or 9 day calendar ?
And do you know how farmers let their lands like fallow every 7th year ? guess where you can also find that ? Hint: in Sunday School.
amazed,
oops. you got me on that one. I got my MAGNIFICENT works of God mixed up. The title gives is the seasons, right. It’s the proper distance from the sun that prevents us from burning or freezing. Don’t you think that is AMAZING ?
and the perfect orbit the earth takes ? That’s AMAZING, too.
And how about when there’s a solar or lunar eclipse. Don’t you think that’s AMAZING ? Surely you don’t think that all happened BY CHANCE, do you ?
I feel no particular impetus to attempt to dissuade anyone from following their belief system… and feel confident I need not endure anyone pushing theirs on myself. That said, I am always left to wonder why the conditions were “created” for life to exist and not that life exists because conditions were ideal… There are billions of stars in our galaxy and billions of galaxies in the universe. We also know there are billions of Black Holes in the Universe and I believe each is a doorway to another Universe – the backside of a Big Bang if you will. The probability that there are billions of other worlds in the “Goldilocks” region is undeniable. I do find the coincidence that the Moon is precisely the correct diameter to block the Sun during a Solar eclipse unlikely, but a coincidence none the less – which will change since the Moon’s orbit is not permanent.
amazed
wow, that’s a lot of billions . . . I suppose the more you think about the enormity of it all, the stars, the oceans, the planets, etc., you might one day wonder “Who made this all?”
No, Bill. I don’t wonder about it. I don’t feel a need to believe in a higher being to feel comfortable or safe when there is so much scientific evidence to the contrary. You have your faith and I applaud and wish you well with it. If I’m wrong you’ll have the last laugh. cheers.
Amazed,
good enough. So surely you understand if I BELIEVE I’m right, it would be evil to wait around for “the last laugh” – no ? It’s incumbent on me to share the story, but in a loving way of course.
I guess you can’t say “no one told me”
Bill since you have now learned about seasons and tilt. I believe that the Earth is actually perfect for the life that livesd here because they evolved to suit these conditions. Those that did not suit the enviorment went extinct. That is Natural Selection. If the Earth was closer then different adaptations would have occured.
Further more I don’t wonder who made it. God did. How he made it is where we differ. Who made it is not a question for science. How is a science question!
Do you think it is plausible he used evolution as a tool in his design?
Cdev,
well, how come other other planets haven’t “evolved” ? And let’s just confine ourselves to our universe, we can speculate on other worlds another time.
>>Who made it is not a question for science.
– correct, just what is the point of Intelligent Design, but if the facts lead the scientist to say “yeah, looks like this was designed and therefore by a designer”, then they must accept that.
Is it plausible God used evolution ? Perhaps, but evolution is literally “man-made”, and the point is to take God out of the picture, and to do so right on the first pages of Scripture.
I have studied this as a layman, and it’s the EVIDENCE that is what makes me go WOW ! God really did it, because by nature we are skeptics and at enmity with God. So it is not the pages of the Bible that make me a fanatic, it’s FAITH bolstered by EVIDENCE and REASON.
How do you know life has not evolved on those planets? Anyone ever been there? It wouldn’t be life like we have on our planet because the conditions are different. We don’t know one way or the other. You are assuming because you haven’t seen it there is none there. What if I applied the same logic to God?
Evolution is not man made. It can be man driven and is called artifical selection like big breasted turkey’s. Most of it is natural selection and is not man driven!
Cdev,
you’re kidding, right ? Like we don’t have pictures of our planets, temperature readings, etc., and I haven’t seen any life, have you ?
I do like big-breasted turkeys . . . but I think we agree in micro-evolution, my beef is macro-evolution.
watch the video here on the age of the earth. I can’t get it to come up so I don’t have the exact link.
And here’s my point:
Evolutionists claim that evolution is “science” and creation is “religion.” Eric Hovind presents a case to show that evolution has nothing to do with science—that’s right, both creation and evolution are religious.
– no making fun until you watch it ! it’s 2 hours but surely you already wasted that amount of time with me, but thanks for sticking it out
Hmmm… it seems that Bill is a moron.
Bill,
There is NO “evidence” that your God exists. Period.
Get off your high horse and accept that there could be other beliefs than your own.
Your continued argument here only shows that you are closed minded and unwilling to accept that other people can think on their own.
Your opinions are no more valid than CDev’s or anyone else for that matter.
What a jerk.
Phil, nice to talk to you ! Appreciate your introduction.
Let’s see about the evidence. Well, we have a Bible, how about that ?
We have Bible prophecy that predicts the birth of Christ and like 300 other things ? Does that count ?
We have the fact that we are in the YEAR OF OUR LORD 2011, based off when JESUS CHRIST was born. Any thoughts on that ?
And what about the earth tilting precisely at 23 1/2 degrees (Cdev – 23.4, gotcha) ? Do you think that just happened “BY CHANCE” or may GOD DESIGNED IT ?
C’mon, Phil, are you SURE God doesn’t exist or you’re *just not sure* ? Which is it?
No Bill….
The Bible was written and recorded by Men…..simple humans. Just like yourself.
The evidence for your argument is no more valid than the writings of Charles Darwin or Karl Marx.
Sorry….
You lose.
Phil, wrong again !
In case you didn’t know it, the Bible was physically written by men, but INSPIRED BY GOD. God is the author of the Bible ! It’s his love letter to YOU.
And everyone here thinks I’m such a meanie, but you should have seen me BEFORE I came to know Christ as Lord and Savior. Whoa – yes, that was BAD !
I’m not the man I want to be, not the man I will be, but thank God I’m not the man I used to be !
G’night all !
Bill….you still lack the Evidence you are asking from everyone else.
Your argument is flawed because the only proof you have is your own faith.
Your internet pulpit has only proven to make you look like a close-minded jerk who is unable to accept that there are beliefs differing from your own.
Sorry…
You lose.
By the way….I am certain that there is a God. I am just not foolish enough to try to shove my beliefs down the throats of others….for He may manifest himself in different ways to people in different circumstances.
Robert S, let me re-phrase, “I’m done with Cdev”.
I see people are continuing to listen here, why are you even listening to my rantings ?
Phil, sorry, can’t end on that note.
well, duh, yes, it’s my FAITH.
And you’re on your own pulpit, so I guess moralizing in inbred to both of us.
Perhaps if someone had shared the love of Christ with the Arizona shooter ? Just maybe. Oh, better not “shove it down someone’s throat”.
As to the original posters topic;
I’ve watched the reactions of America since the attempted assassination of Rep. Gifford and honestly, it’s been surreal. The attempt to politicize this tragedy by the local Sheriff, the main stream press and the progressive left, is a new low that even I believed was beyond their sinking too. Human beings, including a child, lost their lives because of a madman, and we get screeching, subhuman blame storming from these folks.
American politics has always been a blood sport and the very people calling for “less rhetoric” in our political conversations, have been particularly aggresive in the recent past. They sense that the american people have rejected their agenda and the best shot they’ve ever had is slipping away, so, they’re trying to silence the opposition. Sarah Palin is no more to blame than Obama himself, but that doesn’t stop the left from excoriating her, first for not responding, then for responding. They’ve reached a level where reason does not apply.
The public has observed the disrespect of the dead and wounded by these people, and it will not be forgotten. The progressive left has shown everyone exactly what level they play on and by doing so, they’re harmed themselves more than any Limbaugh, Beck or Palin could have done.
This Country is turning into a pathetic pile of Douchebags. Here is the reality check for all you left-wing nipple sucking bottles of Massengill.
1. A whackjob killed six people in Arizona last week. There is no connection between this and the Political Rhetoric of the last election by Conservatives.
2. For you left wing Fartknockers screaming for civility where the hell were you when they were saying vile filth about President Bush (43) and Sarah Palin in the 2008 election? Does the word hypocrite mean anything. Pfft, you left wing democrats are as American as Karl Marx.
Here is what should happen, give this nutjob a speedy trial and then a speedy hanging. Then stop with Psyco-babble BS about this dingleberry.
Good Day,
Gene Pool Cleaner
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