Following two consecutive years with no pay raises for school employees, Harford Schools Superintendent Robert M. Tomback has proposed a salary increase for all employees next year and requested an increase of $26.4 million, or 6.3%, in the FY12 unrestricted fund, to $448.97 million. The projected restricted fund is expected to drop by $12.2 million to $24.7 million, bringing the overall increase in the current expense fund to 3.1%.
The proposed salary increases are an effort to stay competitive with neighboring counties, according the superintendent’s budget transmittal letter, which explained the move as follows:
“As a result of no step increases or Cost of Living Adjustments (COLA) for the past two years, it is our intent with this budget proposal to avoid falling further behind. By law, the Board is required to negotiate with each of the five bargaining units in Harford County to establish salary, wages and other working conditions. As such, in order to bargain in good faith, no outcomes regarding this increase have been defined at this time.”
That the increases were mentioned at all stands in stark contrast to one year ago, when a 2% salary cut for all employees was quietly built into the superintendent’s budget request, which was based on the expectation that funding would be flat due to the economic downturn.
Asked whether there had been a shift this year to budgeting based on needs, rather than funding expectations, Dr. Tomback told The Dagger:
“As we work to establish a fiscally responsible budget each year, we reflect on the current and projected needs of our students and staff. The goals of the Recommended FY2012 Operating Budget are to preserve the integrity of the instructional programs, maintain a competitive salary, and to open the new Red Pump Elementary School. Harford County Public Schools is committed to ensuring every child is given the best educational opportunities possible and our budget request reflects that commitment.”
Last year’s 2% salary cut sparked a backlash from employees and was later reversed, in part because Harford County Government came up with $2.7 million more than the school system had requested. This year, the superintendent’s budget asks the county for an increase of nearly ten times that amount.
With no additional funding expected from the state, the bulk of the increase in the proposed FY12 unrestricted fund, or $24 million, is requested from local government. The amount represents an 11.3% increase over last year’s $214 million contribution from the county.
Looming over the local funding picture is the potential for teacher pensions to be gradually shifted from the state to the counties. Threatened for years, and opposed by both the school board and county government, the move is expected to be considered by the 2011 Maryland General Assembly, and could eat up millions in local funding.
The superintendent’s budget proposal, presented to the Harford County Board of Education on December 20, also includes a net increase of 26.3 full time equivalent positions, including additional staffing for the new Red Pump Elementary School in Bel Air, and the elimination of some positions in the restricted fund.
The school board will hold work sessions and accept public comment on the budget on January 10 and January 15, before adopting a budget recommendation to County Executive David Craig on January 18, 2011.
The following budget transmittal letter and budget highlights were provided by HCPS. Detailed information on the proposed budget can be found here: http://www.hcps.org/BOE/Budget.aspx
WOW all I can say is what about all the other county employees that haven’t have pay increases in the last 3 years, and have no idea when they will get a raise. But of course the public schools will get a raise.
As long as the school system finds savings within their current budget so that a raise can be given to deserving employees, I think its ok. But if other county employees have to go without a raise so that teachers and HCPS staff can have a raise? That would be problematic. The county’s employee numbers have been reduced greatly due to last year’s buyout which freed additional money so that the school system could maintain their service levels, but don’t expect that county employees would be so willing to go without a raise, so that teachers can have theirs.
Let’s not forget, the school system employees have had no salary increase, no cost of living increase, and no promised step increase for the last few years.
According to U.S. Commerce Dept & Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS)inflation has been minimal 1.10% to 1.15% so why a COLA? Please let us know why HCPS employees should receive such an increase. Most private sector tax payers have had no correspeonding pay inceases. Justify.
Because HCPS salaries are not comensurate with surronding counties. At a time when lots of older teachers are retiring who are you going to get to replace them? Additionally you have not given these employees a step for two years either.
Cdev,
Do we have a teacher shortage in Harford County? Is it possible we are seeing deflation in teacher compensation?
Porter
At certian positions yes. PE, Social Studies and English are a dime a dozen and we don’t have a shortage there but Science, Math and Special Ed we do. We frequently take teachers in those positions and pay for their masters in education to fill those jobs. To be more specific we hire career changers to teach special ed and pay for their masters degree to get special ed certification. This costs us more. The certified Special educators get to choose from many offers. Or a Science teacher gets to pick from lots of offers and when our pay scale is factored in they likely do not choose us.
Time and time again, studies show that compensation is not proportionate to job satisfaction. Harford County is a great place to live a raise a family. Reasonable tax rates, safety, good infrustructure and not having to commute to another county should be enough to keep us competetive with other counties. I am sure that everyone would like a pay increase, but when everyone else has to cut back, teachers shouldn’t be exempt. At $3.00 a gallon for gasoline, any increased benefit from collecting higher wages in another county are quickly nullified by additional taxes, automobile maintainenc, and fuel cost. Keep the wages at current levels and wait to see if teachers run for the doors. Most people are just happy not being one of the 17% that are unemployed or under employed.
If you do not raise teacher salaries current teachers will leave the system for other counties and new hires will decide to go to a system that pays more. Everyone complains that the public education sector is not up to par but they are not willing to put the money in to make it better.
Actually, in a downturned economy, moves don’t happen the way that it would in a booming economy. Teachers with any kind of seniority would never leave Harford County to go to another jurisdiction where he/she would be have no seniority. Teachers are very important, don’t get me wrong, but so are the employees who make sure that our roads are clear, our drinking water is safe, etc. County employees haven’t gotten raises in two years, and in fact, with the furloughs, had their salary cut by 2% last year. Public sector employees should be treated equally.
Actually, Commenter58, moves like this are happening. Many teachers with many years of seniority are transfering to other school districts as well as to colleges and private schools because of the salary situation. Because of the lack of a step increase for many years, seniority means nothing financially, and cuts now penalize teachers for the remainder of their career. For example, newly hired teachers currently make the same as third year teachers. This is not the case in other counties, so many are cutting their losses and moving. Couple this with class sizes between 30-40 in high schools, and morale is at an all time low. Teachers with low morale do not teach passionately, and do not turn out enthusiastic students. Is this the group of young people you want entering the work force in a few years?
This excuse has been used for the last 10 to 15 years to inflate salaries. Enough is enough!
I can’t disagree with you more. Over the last two decades this county has not invested in the “teaching team”. It has enjoyed the returns of quality investing over the previous years. Now the lack of staying competitive is taking its toll. Poor decision making about asset allocation and limited managerial accountability has created an unsustainable and dysfunctional system. Just like with buying decoys – it is an investment in the future. When you don’t buy quality, you can’t expect much of a return down the road. It is not the money you spend, but rather where to money is skillfully invested that makes the difference.
I don’t mind paying teachers and support staff the money they deserve, but I am still appalled that the superintendent makes $190,000 a year, Bill Lawrence around $175,000 and some others who also don’t even live in this county salaries that are higher than the States Attorney, the County Executive and the Governor! Are they worth it? After reading that Bill Lawrence interview and watching the superintendent have everyone else speak on his behalf, it certainly doesn’t seem like it.
And Ethel…….the teachers in the county totally agree with you too. There is so much (overpaid) overhead in the system, it is crazy! That is where tax dollars are being wasted!
I know that I am in the minority here, but government jobs need to pay more. A lot of these people have the potential to make more money in the private sector and take cuts to work for the public. I think it is horrible what the Governor makes (even though I dont support him) Why would a kid want to grow up to be president and make 400k a year whe he can run a company and make 1 million a year? Raise public sector job salaries and get better candidates.
In the past, the perk of government employment was that you had a job for life. Yeah, the pay was not as high as your friends in the public sector, but you had the peace of mind that you would not be laid off.
Government people have it way better than teachers…….i have a masters degree, and this is my fourth year teaching, but then a family member of mine, with an undergrad degree and 1 year out of college is making over 60 grand, with every other friday off, 2 hour lunch breaks, down time to play on facebook and every holiday off……i am paying to go to school to get another degree to get OUT of teaching…..its pathetic
I feel your pain. My son has no college degree, works in a traditional trade and he makes considerably more than I do. When he is done at the end of the day he puts his tools away and goes home. No papers to grade or lessons to plan in his off time, when he works over he gets paid extra, doesn’t have to SWIPE in, can use the lavatory when he needs too, and doesn’t have anybody who knows next to nothing about his job criticizing the quality of his work. And equality important he is respected as the professional tradesmen that he is.
And let’s not forget that revenues are down because all of us citizens (the ATM the government goes to) are making a lot less. Where is the money to come from? The well is dry, there is no more water. We can not raise pay without a revenue source. All of you geniuses who think we need to pay all of our public sector more, please suggest where the money is to be found. How about a bake sale?
Cutting welfare for seniors like social security at least at the fed level.
Sadly, the government does not use taxpayers at the ATM in the way it should (if it did, those making over 250k would be paying their fare share and have rates on income above 250k revert back to its appropriate levels prior to the ill-advised and foolish cuts during a war). Our true ATM is the Chinese government; and any conservative who seriously supported this national tax ‘compromise’ needs to step back and think about the absolute stink they raised when the president bailed us out of the brink of recession with the stimulus package (which cost a whopping 700b); this tax “compromise” cost over 900 billion – money coming from our true ATM of China. I wonder what the long term impact of this decision will be??? Not good to be sure, devastating at its worst…
ProudDemocrat,
I think it would be progressive enough if everyone paid the same percentage tax rate.
Porter
How about eliminating the income tax? I am not big on flat tax proposals. They always seem to benefit one group over others in the details. How about some alternative form of taxation? In life, there should be no free rides, but you really do get what you pay for.
The rich should pay their fair share? OK, let’s give them bigger tax cuts.
In 2006, the top 1% of wage earners paid 32% of the total fed. income tax, but only received 21 percent of the income. Looks like the only fair thing to do is cut their taxes… unless you believe that the rich should be penalized simply for being rich. Isn’t that cute – a classical Marxist among us!
I was listening to the radio earlier this week, and the guest on a talk show asked for any listener who had a job that was created by a poor person to call in. Nobody called. What a big surprise (unless you are intelligent and fair-minded).
Phil Dirt
Math and finance have never been a strong points of progressives.
If you have a percentage rate of say 30% a person making $50K a year would pay $15K in taxes and a person making $1 Million would pay $300K. I think it is pretty darn progressive to have a millionaire pay $285 more than some middle-class person paying $15k.
Porter
No person needs to make a 1 Million dollars, we should redistribute wealth in a way that a millionaire affords the same lifestyle as a working person making 50,000 a year.
Demfem, that has to be a joke. You had me going there for a moment. Good one!
Everyone should be paying the same tax rate. Cut out all the tax loopholes, deductions, credits, etc and tax all income above the poverty at the same rate.
Oooooooh, the evil rich again. They pay the most in taxes now. Just because they are wealthy does not make them fat cats and worthy of punitive taxation. And lets admit that this is the progressive world view. They think all wealthy people got that way on the backs of the poor. The incentive to work hard and get ahead in life is taken away when the government “wants you to pay your fair share.” Who’s idea of fair share is it? Why not just say “screw it” and go to work for the federal government.”
Our problem is that we spend more than we make. It is obvious that our government needs to make cutbacks in areas. The answer to your questions is to spend less money in other areas and cut programs that are not essential but luxury. I am not a fan of government spending, but you can not spend the minimal amount that we are on education and than complain about the results.
there are $$$ in the coffers. It is all about priorities such as paying higher salaries to some staff as oppossed to front line people. The county this year spend $$$ to build roundabouts, road improvements which could have gone another year with reasonable maintenance as opposed to replacements which by the way cost the taxpayer millions instead of paying for pay raises for staff. The county also has an ever growing rainy day fund that hasn’t been tapped, or use some of the 25 million in a reserve fund for future health care costs.
Good point, it is raining but we are not using the money!
cdev-hcps gets about half 50% of the county’s revenues, let HCPS find savings in their budgets to take care of their staff…I am talking about priorities in all county agencies to pay for things that matter to the taxpayer and students as well…HCPS routinely over estimates construction costs, maintenance, energy costs and transportation costs. They cry poor every time to get more SSS from the county to pay for things that they already have funding. The county buyout provided savings which were passed on to the school system last year as a result we are working with less resources so that HCPS can have their cake and eat it too.
3 years ago i joined harford county public schools, with previous employment in the military and private sector jobs, I wanted to work for the people of Harford county, and I interviewed and was selected for a job at a school, During the interview One of the things that was discussed was the Benefits, the COLA raise and the step raise, I knew that taking a job with HCPS was about 5 dollars an hour behind the private sector for a compareable job, how ever the cost of the benefits at that time were alot less, and there was COLA and step raises, however since i have been employed the health care has increased and I have not recieved any raise so as i get further and further behind of where i was I consider taking employment else where, I have had several opporunities to leave the school system and allow other companies and businesses utilize my skills, if something doesnt happen soon i will be forced to take something else, and ultimately the schools will loose a good worker and a dedicated employee.
blame our elected officials, deans, principles and superintendants for their outrageous salaries and this is why the peons suffer it out. Cut up all their taxpayer paid credit cards. Why should we have to pay for their lunches, dinners, snacks, trips, salon bills, crab feasts and chaufeurs for them and their families. Cut all the higher ups who work part time and get triple pay.
How much salary does this superintendant get for his part time desk job? Does he have a back breaking get down and dirty kinda job? Will he get a full pension for part time work? Does he get vacations and summers off with pay and all holidays off? Cut his salary and the rest of them. Same for principles and deans. Too much tax $$ going for these desk jobs.
There are some interesting math exercises that you can do. That is if you’re old enough to have been taught real math.
1) Take the total number of students taught in the system, divide that into the annual school budget. Now multiply that by an average number of students per classroom, 20, 25? Whatever number you choose, and the end product is x dollars per classroom. Now how much does it cost for the teacher to occupy that room an an annual basis? Subtract that from your earlier figure and that is the overhead, admin, maintenance, food, etc. The numbers will be staggering. By the way don’t forget that the cost per teacher per year is not the annual salary, you have to factor in about 43% above salary for leave, benefits, workers comp, unemployment, etc.
2) Determine how many employees of the total school system are drawing an annual salary in excess of $100,000. No don’t factor in the overhead 43% from above. Now determine how many of them are in a classroom every day.
The answers to these two problems will show you why those of us who have no students in the classroom are totally pissed off by the subject of this article. We are currently paying way too much for the system we have. If I could vote on it I would ask the system to find a 10% reduction without touching teacher salary or benefits. When the board accomplishes that I would have them do it all over again until we eliminate the bloat caused by overhead.
“Falling behind” – that is the claim by all government employees (education, administration, police,etc…). Problem with that is they are comparing themselves to other government jurisdictions that are all overpaid.
Pick up a Wall Street Journal. States and municipalities are broke. Government employees are represented by unions that have created a situation where government employees are grossly over compensated when compared to private sector jobs. These are simply facts that anyone can look up by simply using a “google search”.
The federal government (us taxpayers) bailed out the states for the last 2 years. Enough is enough.
Unfortunately, the point has occurred where there are so many government employees, uneducated Americans and entitlement driven Americans that little can be done.
That leaves us with politicians like David Craig. David Craig has absolutely no business experience yet he is entrusted to run our County. Why else would David Craig hire a kid like Scott Gibson “without the prerequisite experience needed” to run the County’s Human Resource Department. As a former education employee, David Craig will have no problem endorsing all Education increases.
County employees are paid on average less that their private sector counterparts. You are comparing apples to oranges because federal pay tends to be way higher than county pay. Not all government entities pay the same for the same positions. In fact, harford county has become a training ground for state and federal jobs because our county does not pay market rates for the jobs posted. Comparing a govt job to a private sector job broadly does is like comparing apples to oranges.
even under your terms- engineers get paid more from private practice, planners, attorneys, inspectors, contruction workers, plumbers and so it goes. I know some of these things because my private job with is the same as my former govt job pays me $12,000 per year and I also have performance bonuses that can add another $10,000 that this year I have surnpassed by about $4000. Granted the benefits do not compare, but at the end of the day, better benefits do not pay my mortgage or put food on the table today.
Correction-I make $12,000 more per year than in my former county employment.
How is your private pension compared to your Harford County pension?
Porter-I did say that benefits are better with govt, but the bottom line still is how much do I get paid today. If I were to retire with the county, then I would have a pension equal to my contributions and the time I paid into it according to the ever changing formula. When I started with the county employees contributed 1% and it has increased to 5% of their income. This is mandatory, not something you can opt in or out.
The county employees contribute 5% of their salary to THEIR pension system and must also pay TAXES on that income.
Present Employment:
Private pensions are almost non-existent but my employer matches my 4% contribution to my 401K up to $4,000 per year and I am able to defer it until I retire which allows my $$$ to grow towards my retirement account…by my math, I rather have it with me for me to decide how to invest it than have it in a defined pension benefit plan which if I die prior to my retirement, I won’t get one red cent of what I paid.
It’s about total compensation – annual salary, health care, pension and 401k/403B.
Harford County employee overall compensation is far superior to Harford County private sector employee compensation.
Which leads us to the old saw; “Them that can do, and those who can’t teach but those who haven’t a clue take a government job.”
There is no comparison between government jobs and their like private sector jobs. In the private sector every employee knows what to do and is held to a particular standard. Fail to meet that standard and you are part of the long and growing unemployment line. For us in Maryland, job creation means creating another department with an under secretary to the secretary to the deputy director to the director for the removal of redundancy redundancy.
Porter-no 401k/404b for county employees. In my case and most jobs private employers pay more on average, but county does have better benefits. You can cite federal and state compensation, but if your argument is that the county pays more than the market can bear, then you are in error. I am willing to bet most county jobs pay well below the average salary for a person living in harford county.
Cisco – You’d lose that bet. Harford County employees’ total compensation far exceeds that of private sector employees.
Porter
you can take them to the water, but you can’t make them drink it. You can believe what you want….
Actually Cisco, I believe you have that backwards. I think it’s supposed to be you can take a horse to drink but you can’t make him water. Have a merry Christmas.
Cisco – Why would anyone with half a brain and who understands that if a Harford County employee gets a overly generous pay package inclusive of pension, deferred compensation, salary and health/dental/vision, drink your kool-aid and believe your pig snot that the private sector pays better in comparison?
Porter
county employees do not have a deferred compensation package.
Since I have worked for the county, I think I have a fair understanding of the pay structure and benefit package. As I said prior, county pay is less than private employment for most positions within the county, but benefits are better.
You can probably find many resources that would show you that private attorneys, engineers, planners, accountants, cpa’s, construction management, computer specialists, programmers, and management folks use county employment for great training and move on to private practice. Statistics with the county show that trends show that a great proportion stay with the county for 5 yrs and move on to state, federal or private employment once experience and certification is acheived in their respective fields. Have you seen the starting pay for a state’s attorney? How about computer programmers, planners, and management positions?
A 911 operator makes less than 30K per year. Enough said.
Cisco, Should we believe you when you proclaim that there is no deferred compensation plan for Harford County or should we believe Harford County’s website?
http://www.harfordcountymd.gov/human_resources/benefits.html
Yes, there is a deferred compensation program, but the County does not contribute anything to it. All of it comes from the employee’s salary. Must be nice to have an employer match the employees’ contributions.
There too burdened by funding your pension to additionally contribute to your deferred compensation plan.
They’re too burdened by funding your pension to additionally contribute to your deferred compensation plan.
I was just reading at another site about a proposal by this same Superintendent of schools to address increased pension costs by eliminating staff.
How does it make sense to offer pay raises for teachers in the Harford County Public School System only to decide to fire some so you can support the increase in pension costs that you are being forced to support? Is there something wrong with the people in charge here? Are they only interested in helping some while eliminating others? You have revenue coming in…. and you have expenses… I am doing without a pay raise this year because of the ridiculous deficit our country has accumulated. Harford County County Public School staff should be able to manage on their existing salaries and increased pension costs without eliminating staff. Or maybe the administrative folks would be willing to take a pay cut to preserve jobs for everyone.
I would support giving the teachers and workers who maintain the facilities raises but only if those raises were offset by firing all the useless hangers-on in the system. Start getting rid of anyone with “assistant” in their job title. Also all of the touchy-feely jobs like diversity specialists, grief counselors, sensitivity trainers, etc.
Principals, teachers, janitors, bus drivers: essential. All else, cut and distribute the payroll savings to the essentials.
The boe budget needs to address the waste and the excess w/n it before it increases any salary. The teachers that choose to leave due to salary would probably leave anyway. The staff that does the “grunt work”, ie secretarial, custodial, cafeteria, bus drivers, and other non-teaching staff, ought to be rewarded with increases, if they can show areas that could be more cost effective. Much is wasted w/n the schools and many of those involved w/n the system have great ideas on ways to avoid waste, if the powers above would take the time to listen.
Redistricting has shown the amount of wasted space, perhaps that is an area that could be addressed w/ cost cutting.
The number of students that cannot read, name parts of speech, do basic math, answer basic geography questions or even name the last 3 presidents is definitely something that as a taxpayer frustrates me.
I encourage each reader of the Dagger to attend the budget meetings that county council will host to share their concerns. More than 50% of your county taxes go to the school system here in the county.
The comments earlier by readers that say the rich should pay more taxes because they are rich is non-sense, and should be considered when deciding to attend or not attend the council meetings. The taxes that are paid to the city, county, state and federal gov’t., will continue to be wasted or not as directed by the people that are paying them, John or Jane Q. Citizen. The more that citizens learn about the money that is spent “for our benefit”, the more outraged or the more ok one is with what our ELECTED officials are doing with our money.
Please make time to attend, it is an eye-opening experience, for sure.
I would suggest that everyone who talks about waste in the school system should actually READ the Superintendent’s proposed budget then identify the specific line items where this waste occurs – but make sure that you are aware of which Federal and State law or regulation requires that particular expenditure. When you figure that out please offer a well thought out counter proposal to offer the BOE which can then consider the alternative budget proposal. It is easy to make broad statements without having accurate information to support such claims.
I’ve posted on this before–One area to easily save money is by reducing the number of in-school administrators. I went to HS in Pennsylvania in the late 1990s. We had a Principal, ONE assistant Principal and a couple of secretaries. The HS I went to was of similar size and population as North Harford or CMW. Those two schools have a Principal, THREE AP’s, an Educational Facilitator (on a Principal’s salary), and on and on.
Some schools may need 5 administrators. Some clearly don’t. You could probably save a million dollars (not exaggerating in the slightest here) by staffing the administration properly throughout the county.
This is far too sensible an approach to the problem of increasing costs in any area of government or any profession. When I was growing up my family doctor was a man named Julius Katzenstein. He graduated from Berlin in 1937 and had a practice where I grew up in Western New York. Once when I was sick, he drove to my house and came inside wearing is hat, coat and carrying his bag. Later he discontinued house calls and saw me in his office – occupied by just him, in a house in a residential area. In the mid 70s he hired a receptionist – she answered the phone and made the appointments. That was all she did because he saw the patients.
Today when I call the office I am greeted by an answering machine that tells me if I have a life threatening emergency to hang up and call 911. Then I press 2 to make an appointment and I wait for the receptionist who will ask me why I want to see the doctor today. Then she asks what my symptoms are. This is so irritating given that I am bound to answer the same questions when I arrive and see in turn the receptionist, medical assistant, the doctor, and then the medical biller. Three of which will ask me the exact same questions again. My total time with my doctor will amount to 15 minutes; which my health insurance pays for handsomely.
The composite rate for this visit will probably be close to $200 per hour as I get to admire the office decor while I wait my turn. It’s always easier to spend other people’s money when you aren’t responsible for paying for things yourself. This is a common flaw of government.
Mr. Porter,
Where in Western NY do you hail from? I moved to that side of NY a few years ago after leaving Harford County. I’m up near Hamburg, a little south of Buffalo.
You mean like Eden? Check out the Kazoo factory if you have not already.
Mr. Porter, How is the doctor example the fault of government. Surely your doctor is not run by the government is it? The doctor and insurance are a private enterprise unless it is
Medicare
What frustrates me is that students are held to low standards because of such measures as No Child Left Behind.
It frustrates me that I have classes over 35 students, yet am blamed for their low ability to read.
It frustrates me that I I can no longer be passionate about my teaching job yet I am supposed to inspire.
It frustrates me that every year the interest on my college loans goes up, and my teaching salary goes down.
It frustrates me that I have to eat, work, break up fights, and go to the bathroom by the bell…yet my job is compared to an office job.
It frustrates me that I cannot always afford to buy groceries after paying the electric bill.
It frustrates me that I’m supposed to work from 7-when I go to bed.
It frustrates me that many parents expect me to parent their children for them.
It frustrates me that those that have not even been in a school for many years, judge and speak out on schools today.
Yes Maryland Voter, we all are a bit frustrated.
Efficiency in govt can be acheived without shortchanging the very people doing the grunt work such as staff and reduction in services…there are areas of improved operations and cost reduction in infrastructure, energy, consolidation of depts and staff duties where practical…it seems that some people think that the best way to reduce costs is to just cut depts, fire people and just eliminate govt functions altogether.
Clearly these notions are shortsighted and not optimal to the quality of life and services we have come to expect. If your house is on fire, you expect the fire hydrant to have water and function properly, you would want roads to be cleared of snow and schools to provide a great education to our kids…these things can only be acheived if the proper resources are devoted to them. we can all agree that providing cost effective services should not mean that those that provide the services should be punished for electing to work for a public entity.
Cisco, What happens when a department improves efficiency and needs fewer people and budget? How do you solve that problem?
Efficiency in govt would lead to reductions through attrition, retirement or transfering employees to another dept where their functions would be compatible. A clerk in one dept can be moved to another or become a receptionist as an example. Cost savings should be passed on to the taxpayer to reduce their tax burden. The county has done some of these things by offering early retirement which reduced payroll costs as new people are brought in at a lower salary. This past year the savings realized were passed on to the HCPS system, but any other savings should really go to the taxpayer, not to salary increases for anyone. Govt employees provide a valuable service, but in this economy to ask for a raise would be a big mistake since the county’s tax payers are losing their jobs or doing with less and working more. We ask everyone to sacrifice for the benefit of all.
That last sentence “We ask everyone to sacrifice for the benefit of all” sounds very socialist to me. Is it just me?
Socialist? Fascinating observation, perhaps you should not contribute at all to the greater good. Instead devote your time to the elevation of “Me”. Let’s socialize debt and privatize profit because after all it’s your money. It’s interesting to note that there are some on the Right who espouse themselves to be following Christian ideals and yet when it comes to charity, if it’s not through their church on their terms it’s just not right. Someone once said that civilization is a bunch of people living together without a whole lot of pushing and shoving. Knee jerk reactions to the excesses from the Left or the Right do nothing to further the goal of trying to get along.
Not so sir, simple economics as I see it. We need to lower the cost of services provided so that the taxpayer can afford to keep basic govt services which includes teachers. Teachers and other govt workers are not inmune from the realities of our economic situation with high unemployment rate, sales receipts low and tax revenues down, so cost of services must also come down as basic supply and demand would allow. I asked if a polite and forthright manner, but the taxpayer will rise in opposition to any increases in salaries in these though economic times where private employees and employers are making less, working more and with no “cadillac” health care plans to boot.
I am not against sacrifice. I am simply pointing out the iorny that those on the right who scream socialist this and socialist that. as if it is the anti-christ. Yet are asking for people to work for the collective good which is exactly what socialism is! In the two posts you just espoused a socialist point of view. I consider my self a moderate, that said you are asking a group of employees who watched private sector employees get huge bonuses and huge raises during the boom and got told that you will get even in a down turn to work for the collective good. Well it is a down turn and they have not been getting even. Actually we are in a slow recovery, but that is another can of worms. Additionally I fail to see how asking teachers to get paid less at a time when fewer people are entering the profession is going to help decrease the cost of a gallon of gas!
Greater efficiency in the delivery of services (and the possible reduction or elimination of some services) is the key to reduced budgets without making all govt employees scapegoats by those that offer no legitimate or rational ideas on how to accomplish this – but who are very adept at producing a lot of implausible hot air suggestions with little opportunity to actually solve our budget problems.
Rocco,
Schools can’t be defined by “basic” or private sector economics. The reason why is because schools have an economically symbiotic relationship with the community that houses them. The quality of a school district has a direct impact on home values.
In April of 2003, scholars from the Agricultural and Applied Economics departments at Clemson University tracked the effect of school quality on home value in Greenville, South Carolina. They determined that, in neighborhoods that had schools rated as “above average,” homes sold for 19% more than comparable homes in a “below average” school district.
By freezing teacher salaries (which have fallen further and further towards the bottom of the state rankings), the county is playing roulette with your home values.
I agree with you that fiscal responsibility needs to be taken into account. That said, the solution is to address the administrative fat (administrator pay is ranked near the top of the state rankings, there are too many of them, and they do not directly impact student achievement/rankings).
Giving teachers the contractually negotiated step raise (for the first time in 3 years) is NOT the problem. That’s a necessary step in maintaining a good school system, and thus maintaining or increasing the value of your property.
If people are going to go en masse to the BoE meeting, it needs to be done intelligently and with purpose. It’s possible to make teacher pay in Harford County competitive while also trimming the budget, but the administrators are hoping that people will just see the announcement of the raise, and attack the teachers for a budget disaster that they did nothing to create.
Harford county has been able to reduce some taxes and decrease costs these past few budgets and greater efficiency has been acheived, but more needs to the done. There are efficiencies that need to be acheived by consolidation of some depts, reducing upper level management positions as well as administrative costs by elimination of other functions such as combining permits and planning and zoning, community services with housing agency and housing dept. These savings can be within the contex of the budget about 2% and over a 10 yrs period account for a significant savings to the taxpayer. The county needs to stop issuing bonds for every other capital expense such as borrowing for developers and businesses. End tax breaks for busineses that would have planted roots in Harford County anyway and eliminate the economy development office since the state of Maryland already has such office for the benefit of the state.
CDEV.
The doctor example is intended to show how employment and labor costs seem to grow exponentially in relation to the service provided.
In my own place of work an office was established last year to provide a liaison between the Army Contracting Agency and engineers and technicians burdened with writing proposals, preparing quotes and doing market research – instead of technical and engineering work. The office is paid entirely out of overhead and is not charging their time to customer projects. However, The technician and engineers’ share of work relating to contracting has not decreased at all, in fact, now instead of answering to the Army Contracting Agency, we are required to answer to this new contract liaison office as well as Army Contracting Agency. There has been no decrease in the number of inquiries we are required to provide and the associated man hours.
Where is the value added? The answer is simple – there is no added value, only added cost.
ILEFT
Batavia, NY. Situated between Buffalo and Rochester. In reflection it was a very good place to grow up.
There are a lot of us Western New York ex pats here. I was born in Tonawanda, lived on a farm in Amherst and did Jr and Sr High in Cheektowaga.
South Buffalo and Orchard Park for me.
CDEV-There is a slight correlation between quality of schools, quality of life and excellent services provided.
No one argues that teachers should not be paid a fair wage or get increases if the $$$ are there to afford it. If other county employees are having furloughs, no raises and increase in health care copays then it would be hard to justify a raise for some and not others.
I don’t know much about huge raises and bonuses that private employers paid to their employees, but certainly business are not paying those now. We are talking about giving raises at a time that revenues are down, tax assessments are also down, and we are n an economic contraction in the private marketplace.
In the end, if you think that working for private entities pays more, you are more than welcome to work 40 plus hours per week, with less health care, less days off and supposedly more $$$$ and huge bonuses. Simple free market economics.
Rocco I do work for a private entity. I am simply saying that teachers have gotten shafted and from the supply and demand aspect if we do not fix something we will continue to get the bottom of the barrell teachers to replace our older teachers who are retiring.
i have served in the military, worked in the private sector, worked for the county government as well as the school system, the school system is years behind on there pay scales, for similar work, the school system has one person doing the work of 4 to 5 people for way less money. In the private sector pay raises of some sort almost come yearly in good times or bad, some companies offer bonuses, however i do have to agree that the health care is more expensive, and you do have to work days, nights, weekends, and holidays, and can be fired at any time with or without a reason
I bet the majority of teachers would work longer hours and give up days off if they could make more money. A very small percentage of teachers do it for the days off. I am for year round schooling and longer school days. But if you expect the teachers to do more work you need to pay them more money.
Just A Point, try listening to Porter, who has obviously worked in the private sector. Have you really done the same? Many private companies, both large and small, institute salary freezes at various times. Usually, the employee costs of benefits continue to rise during these freezes so the net result is a decrease in take-home pay.
Note that this does not take into account overall pay reductions in some instances, and reductions in force (layoffs). Unlike with the government, there is no unlimited pot of a money to pay employees from, so the salaries and number of positions fluctuate up and down with the earnings of the company.
JUST A POINT,
“In the private sector pay raises of some sort almost come yearly in good times or bad,”
You’re an idiot for making the statement above. Where do you think unemployment comes from? Employers not only do not raise employee pay every year, they also lay people off when their revenue is reduced.
Porter
First- Porter, please don’t call s military veteran an idiot. Nothing in the tone of his post merited being insulted.
Second- Porter and Phil Dirt– You guys don’t like people outside of the private sector making statements about it? Well that’s interesting. If non-private sector employees aren’t qualified to make blanket statements about the private sector, what makes the two of you qualified to go on and on about the public sector/teachers?
Third- The entire argument is pointless because it continues to be foolishly framed. There is no point in comparing teachers to the private sector because that is comparing apples to oranges. If you were a doctor, would you want people telling you that you need to have your pay cut because times are tough and employees at Wal-Mart were being laid off? Of course not. You would want your pay set based on what OTHER DOCTORS were making.
You private sector folks keep on talking about the free market–In a free market, you compete with OTHER COUNTIES. Harford County teachers are getting reamed when compared with what teachers in other counties are making. Your own argument (that teachers need to be paid by free-market economics) proves the teachers’ point.
That said, it’s still not a good way to look at the issue. Teaching, as I said in an earlier post (that the anti-teacher crowd has assiduously ignored, likely because they can’t refute it with empty rhetoric), is NOT the same as private-sector economics. School quality has a direct and sizable impact on property value. That’s the main reason that schools are largely funded through property taxes. That’s also the reason that education is the LAST thing you want to cut in an economic crisis. In a poor economy, you have more a more transient population. Cut from the schools, and property value will go down. Lower property value leads to a less savory sort of population moving into the county, and before you know it, Harford County will be just like PG county.
The issue is bloated budgets for central and school-based administration. Another problem is wasted money on “gadgets” and building (case in point– 6 years ago, the county installed flat screen TVs in every classroom. One year later, they installed projectors in every classroom. The TVs are now almost NEVER used. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, and got one productive year out of those televisions).
Tea party folks and private sector folks are mobilizing against the teachers, while IGNORING the actual causes of budget waste.
Remember:
HCPS teachers are paid in the bottom 10 of MD counties (and trending down).
HCPS administrators are paid in the top 10 of MD counties (and trending up).
The administrators and the central staff have been getting paid top dollar to make stupid decisions (like the television issue and PLENTY more), and you folks don’t say a word. When an article pops up that mentions the possibility of HCPS teachers getting a raise that would MAYBE move them to a “middle of the pack” ranking in MD teacher pay, you folks grab the torches and pitchforks. Can you see why your priorities are being called into question?
-Reduce the number of administration and staff.
-Reduce their salary to be “middle of the pack” for MD administrators.
-Hire more teachers in key tested content areas to reduce class sizes in the classes that impact school ratings (English, SS, Math and Science).
-Raise teacher pay to be “middle of the pack” for MD teachers.
Taking those 4 steps would have a positive impact for the STUDENTS (remember them?), help to boost property values, and would either maintain or reduce the current budget costs for education.
Why aren’t those steps being taken? Because the administration and the central staff are making the decision to inflate their own salaries and ranks while making you folks rail against the teachers. And you’re helping them do it.
I Left wrote “You guys don’t like people outside of the private sector making statements about it?”
No, we don’t like anyone making incorrect statements about the private sector. Do you understand the difference?
Yes, Phil, I do. When people make uninformed blanket statements about the private sector, you get offended because people are making “incorrect statements.” When you make uninformed blanket statements about the public sector and education, other people are idiots for not seeing it your way.
It must be nice to argue from a point of view wherein you seem to think you know more about everything than anyone. I just found it ironic that you’ve been chirping in all over the place (with uninformed notions of how the economics of education actually works), but the second someone did the same with the private sector, you got all offended. What is your source of knowledge for education policy? What makes you more qualified to determine how things actually work than someone who ACTUALLY works inside of that system?
I had an issue with another poster (you under a differnet name, perhaps?) stating that most workers in private industry get pay raises nearly every year, whether their business is doing well or not. That is plainly false.
Specifically, which of my uninformed blanket statements about education do you take issue with?
@ I LEFT writes “(with uninformed notions of how the economics of education actually works)”
What you don’t get is that “economics of education” don’t work and getting into a compensation arms race with other dysfunctional Maryland school districts is suicidal.
Furthermore in the private sector a business that overspends to the extent it can’t meet its obligations goes out of business whereas a school district in most cases perpetuates its dysfunction, simply sucks more out of taxpayers and continues to fail students.
Finally taxpayers are tired of the incompetence and dysfunction in Harford County School operations.
Porter
Phil Dirt– I don’t do the multiple user name game. I’m in my 30s, and that just seems childish. As to which of your views I find to be inaccurate, it’s mainly the entire premise of trying to compare the private and public sectors. The economics don’t work the same way for PLENTY of reasons (some of which I’ve patiently outlined on this website and in this thread–posts which are often completely ignored). If anything, the “business model” plan of education is creating the budget mess. Our school system is full of redundant middle management, has a few moronic executives making absurd salaries, and is shafting the rank and file. Sounds A LOT like the private sector.
A Cliff’s Notes version of key differences between public and private sector employment:
1- A private sector company has a purpose–to make money. It’s all about the bottom line. When business is bad, less money is made, and employees either need to increase production or deal with layoffs and salary cuts. In education, there is no product. There is no profit margin. It’s about educating children.
2- The private sector does not have a symbiotic relationship with property value. As I wrote earlier, a good school system has been shown to raise property value by about 20%. That’s a serious bit of coin, there.
Porter– What YOU continue to refuse to consider is that the “economics of education” WILL work. You’re just tilting at the wrong windmill and refusing to accept the fact that schools impact property value. I’m not arguing for anything absurd. My whole outlook on this issue is that it’s not only possible, but economically beneficial to give the teachers raises while addressing waste by eliminating the COPIOUS fat in the existing budget. The school system is largely run by morons (I can offer a list of at least 7 or 8 HUGE wastes of money that I saw in the 5 years I taught in HCPS). The people holding the checkbooks think that throwing more toys into classrooms will compensate for overcrowded classrooms and teacher quality.
You and others would rather attack the teachers and their toothless union (MD is a right to work state. Aside from some complaining, the teachers union can’t really do a damn thing).
CDev–I’m not sure which school your wife works in, but in the schools I taught in/visited, the vast majority of the classrooms (and the cafeterias) had large flat screen televisions. Like your wife, I also used the projector on a daily basis. The projectors were fantastic. The issue was buying the projectors one year after buying the televisions, making the money spent on the televisions a total waste.
@ I Left wrote “a good school system has been shown to raise property value by about 20%”
Interesting isolated statistic, do you have any empirical data to back it up?
@ I Left wrote “private sector does not have a symbiotic relationship with property value”
Are you insane? If you take away private sector jobs housing values fall.
@I Left wrote “You and others would rather attack the teachers and their toothless union”
You need to stop lying since I have not attacked teachers.
So, to summarize I Left’s response to my question: No, he can’t quote any specific blanket statement about education that I supposedly made.
Note to I Left: Unfortunately, Maryland is most definitely NOT a Right to Work state. O’Malley and the Democrats in the legislature, at the bidding of the unions that supply the majority of their political contributions, will make sure that it does not happen. The right to choose will not be made available to Maryland employees.
I left she works at a lower route 40 school. She is aware that some schools like Patterson Mill have flat screen TV’s and that yes the timing was bad as the projector could serve all those functions better. But not every school or classroom had those luxuries.
I just went back and checked. You’re right–Maryland is not a right to work state. I was surprised to find that out. In the years I spent teaching in HCPS, I was never a member of the union and I was never required or asked to give money to the union. That, combined with the fact that I’ve never heard of a teacher strike in MD led me to think that it was a RtW state.
As for your blanket statement issue–it has to do with the entire premise for this thread. This step raise really only impacts one group in a significant way–teachers. None of you have gone out and demanded a full-scale analysis of where money is being wasted. None of you have so much as blinked at the cash being spent on redundant administration. When the teachers might see a dime, then we get the 100 response arguments. It’s the same thing through the entire nation– cash is short, but rather than figure out WHY the cash is short, people immediately scapegoat the teachers.
The business model is not a viable model for a field that does not produce a product or a profit.
The only way for education to work financially over a long period of time is the step/education format.
-Merit pay isn’t financially feasible.
-Vouchers aren’t financially feasible.
(I’ve explained why vouchers aren’t possible on Daggerpress already. If it’s not completely obvious, I can explain why merit pay doesn’t work as well. Just let me know.)
The only real option is to return to the step/experience format, and go after the fat in the budget (and there’s plenty).
I haven’t even advocated for HCPS teachers to be the highest paid in the state. Hell, I haven’t even advocated for matching up the pay rankings with the county test rankings. Teachers would be happy with being middle of the pack, but for some reason that seems to piss people off.
I left while MD is not a RTW state teachers are not permitted to go on strike by law.
@I LEFT, Vouchers are terrific idea that would create competition and give parents choice. The fact is public schools do not want to compete with a voucher system and that is why they also hate charter schools.
Performance pay may or may not work, but eliminating tenure would help create a culture of accountability. Teachers are great except for the bad ones that can’t be fired without tremendous effort. And the good teachers absolutely hate the bad ones.
Porter-
Being against vouchers has nothing to do with being against accountability. Trust me, I get even more fed up with the bad teachers than you do, since I usually have to try and clean up their messes. It’s tough enough to try and cram the HUGE list of curricular demands into one year (while also teaching test-prep strategies on a daily basis). To get a room full of kids who were never taught the previous year’s worth of content on top of that is just maddening.
I had a 10th grade class a few years ago, where most of them had the same 9th grade teacher. That 9th grade teacher was a coach who showed full movies at least once a week. Unfortunately, she was a very good coach, so the administration loved her.
On the Voucher issue, it all comes down to the economics of education. At the center of the issue is that there is a misconception that the school system actually spends the same amount of money on every student. That isn’t true. Special needs students can and do see upwards of 10 to 20 times the money when compared to an honors student or a college prep student. The services that they receive (services they are entitled to via federal law–The Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act, or IDEA), simply cost more money than an average education. This is not something that can be changed in HCPS. It isn’t a theory or an opinion–it’s the reality of school funding.
Once you are aware of that, you can see why vouchers won’t work. It has nothing to do with a fear of accountability and everything to do with economics. If you offer each student a voucher to shop for schools, where does the extra money come from? Just because HCPS says they spend almost 12,000 dollars per student, that’s not how the money is actually distributed. If Student A (an honors student) ACTUALLY receives $1,200 in HCPS, and we choose to give him a voucher for $12,000 to go to private school, where will the money come from to fund the services for the special education students?
For what it’s worth, economics is the same reason that merit pay is a stupid idea. It has nothing to do with accountability and everything to do with real economics. In a merit pay district (like DC and now Baltimore City), teachers who prove themselves to be top teachers get a massive pay bump (in Baltimore City, it’s literally about 3x the salary). Sounds great, right? The best teachers get rewarded, right? But what happens when you achieve your goal of having a top staff from top to bottom? How do you fund a school system where even HALF of the teachers are getting paid 6 figures? It’s not possible. In a state-funded school system, the budget HAS to be predictable and manageable.
This is why teaching is NOT like the public sector. Do teachers get good benefits? Yes. Is the pay decent? Yes. That’s the trade-off involved in becoming a teacher. Both the state AND the teacher gives a little in order to get predictability. The state gets a teaching staff that is affordable and, more often than not, works FAR harder than the salary would indicate. The teacher gives up the possibility of ever becoming rich in exchange for security, benefits and a modest but predictable annual bump in salary (the “Step”).
That’s why teachers have been so upset about the no-negotiation changes in the health plan. That’s why teachers have been annoyed at the frozen step increases. The things through their economic sacrifice are being chipped away. In the private sector, if you continue your education and certification, and work hard, you move up the corporate ladder. Maybe you start your own business, where the harder you work, the more you make. Teaching isn’t like that. Teachers work hard without any hope of moving up the ladder. There is no ladder. Teaching is the job you start and finish with, and you start each year with a desire to do the job better than the year before. By demoralizing the entire teaching community, you run the risk of chasing out the good teachers, who WILL go to other counties and states that are willing to keep up their end of the bargain.
As long as the money is coming from the people, and as long as the students are funded based on need and not equality, the “step system” is the only model I’ve seen that makes sound economic sense.
As far as creating accountability is concerned, that starts with the administration. One of the few things I like about Tomback is his goal of implementing the Baltimore County mold of department chairs. Contrary to popular belief, it IS possible to remove a tenured teacher who isn’t cutting the mustard. The reason that it rarely happens is that it requires plenty of paperwork and justification. Why don’t most administrators go through the trouble, then? I’ll give you a hint–The horrible 9th grade teacher mentioned at the beginning of this post is an administrator now. So is another teacher who would routinely let her students watch “Cash Cab” during class (with her often out of the room). School reform needs to start in the office. If you work towards getting GOOD administrators, the rest will take care of itself.
I apologize for the length of the post. I just get so frustrated when people make it seem like teachers don’t like vouchers, merit pay or charters because of a fear of accountability. I would LOVE more school choice–mainly because I put in the work necessary to be confident that I would be teaching at a school that hard-working students would choose. I just don’t see how vouchers or merit pay are possible without completely destroying the budget.
@I Left – we should eliminate tenure then?
BTW a wall of text is not very convincing. Vouchers are a good idea and public schools would be driven to perform and compete.
Porter,
I didn’t post a “wall of text” to try and mislead anyone. I did it because this is an issue that I care about and one where I have a bit more knowledge than most (being in the job).
You’re dismissive response saddens me. You didn’t even ATTEMPT to address the reality of the situation, preferring to just re-state the view that I just finished PROVING to be flawed. As I said–I would love school choice. I ask you again–How do we pay for it? Until you can answer that question, you are honestly a fool for wanting vouchers. I thought conservatives were in FAVOR of fiscal responsibility?
To answer your other question– No, I am not in favor of removing tenure. It’s a valuable protection for a good teacher to have. No teacher would ever try a new approach to teaching something, or build an exciting new unit plan if they could be fired at will. In order for teachers to truly excel, they need the security of knowing that they won’t be fired if an idea isn’t perfect the first time out (which it never is in teaching. I’ve taught some units 7 or 8 times now, and I STILL make changes after each time).
That said, I think most teachers would be more than willing to concede to changes to tenure. Getting tenure after two years is a bit quick. I could see the mark being set at 5 years. That way, teachers wouldn’t be punished/fired for trying something new, but you’d be able to see if they DON’T make the changes to improve their instruction.
@I left – You wrote a wall of text, however you didn’t prove anything. You did express your opinion.
The fact of the matter is you ignored the tenure question twice and you do not want to compete in a voucher environment.
@I left Pardo me you did address tenure and we disagree. But you want to remove bad teachers?
Porter,
You asked me once about tenure. I answered you. I think it has a valuable purpose, but would support pushing it back from year 2 to year 5. What kind of answer were you looking for, exactly?
As for my post being nothing but opinion, I’m really starting to believe that you either didn’t read it or didn’t understand it. I ask you again–How would you PAY for a voucher program? Where does the money come from? Until you stop dodging that question, you’ve got nothing.
I was posting my last response before you posted yours.
I would LOVE to see qualified administrators actually remove the poor teachers. That’s part of why I like Tomback’s move to have Department Chairs involved in observation. They would be able to help with that process (because they would have a better handle on how to teach the content than an admin–If you were a Science teacher, would you want your professional fate in the hands of a former music teacher?)
Unfortunately, too many administrators are incompetent, and prefer the teachers who give out A’s to everyone and show movies all day. Those teachers don’t get parents calling in. Teachers who hold students accountable often do. Like I said– Reform should start in the office. Get top notch teachers into administrative positions, and encourage them to USE the existing methods of removing incompetent teachers.
Could someone please explain to me why tenure in grade school is a good idea? I understand why teachers like it, but I just don’t see the benefit of it for the students or the school system. What makes this profession so different that it requires a benefit like this?
Phil,
Tenure has two key values as I see it. One, I already explained in an earlier post. Teachers are unlikely to try or develop new and potentially new teaching methods if they could get fired on the spot if it didn’t work perfectly.
The second reason is in the nature of the job. As I said earlier–Teaching is different from the private sector. In the private sector, if you stay at the same position for 30 years, you’re a failure. The goal is to advance up the promotional ladder. In teaching, there is one job-teaching. For good teachers, the more you work at it, the better you get. Each year, a good teacher will improve different things about their approach, organization, etc.
How does this relate to tenure? Since it’s technically the same job whether you’ve been doing it for 3 years or 30, what happens if tenure is removed? Who do you think will be targeted for pink slips if the county wants to save some money? There is no incentive to become a teacher if you can pretty much guarantee that you’ll be fired as soon as you’ve been doing it long enough to have a decent salary. As for the impact that it has on the students, as I said–the more often you do it, the better you get at it. I realize that this isn’t always true, and that there are teachers who “coast” as soon as they have tenure. That’s where a good administration is needed.
@I left by your reckoning if teachers didn’t have a tenured protected status then we wouldn’t have enough teachers? And BG&E meter readers, MVA employees and all manner of city, county, state and federal employees deserve tenure.
What a foolish and baseless premise. Do you really believe that without tenure HCPS would institute a reign of terror and ride roughshod by terminating teachers arbitrarily and capriciously?
I Left, once again (surprise, surprise), I have to agree with Porter. Nothing in your response shows me anything that would make the teaching profession different from any other profession that does not grant tenure.
In this case, it seems to be one of the perquisites (perks) of the job that helps to justify the level of paid compensation that teachers receive.
What a surprise. Porter intentionally misinterprets what I wrote, and Phil Dirt immediately chimes in to agree with him. Who is it using multiple user names now, gentlemen?
I never said anything that could even POSSIBLY be interpreted as meaning that Tenure exists to make sure there are more teachers. I wrote that tenure protects teachers from being fired based on what they make. A year 1 teacher and a year 25 teacher essentially do the same job. The year 25 teacher is likely much better at that job due to education and experience. Without tenure, paper-pushers who only see the budget will only see that the year 25 teacher makes $64k and can be replaced with a year 1 teacher making $41k.
This doesn’t result in more teachers. It results in teaching becoming an even less-desirable career because there is no protection from being fired for purely financial reasons.
Phil- I already explained why it’s different from other jobs. In other jobs, staying at the same position for 30 years is a total failure. In teaching, you do the same job for 30 years and get better at it each year.
Porter- I’m still waiting. How do you pay for vouchers? Until you answer that question, nobody should take anything you have to say seriously.
@I left – Vouchers are a redistribution of monies already in the system. The challenge is in voucher allocation and special needs education.
But that’s not why you object is it, it’s that you don’t want public schools to compete with alternative education options.
Porter- You haven’t answered the question at all.
I KNOW that vouchers involve a re-distribution of funds. I ALSO know that the snag in that plan is doing that while maintaining the funding for special needs students. I know this because I’m the one who told YOU about it.
Don’t tell me what I already told you and try to pass it off as an answer to my question. How will you pay for vouchers? HOW do you maintain the required funds for special needs kids while giving most of it away? Don’t support a plan until you can identify how it can be realistically implemented.
I’ve said more than once that I would be all for school choice if it could be paid for. You’ve made a habit of avoiding what I actually say and pretending that I said something different. I’ve been observed by administrators, other teachers (often from other schools), county officials and a lt. Governor (with an entourage). I have no fear of accountability because I work my ass off to do the job well. I would love to see someone approach you and proceed to tell you that you know nothing about your profession while they (with no background in the field whatsoever) know everything. You are absolutely clueless while being convinced that you are the only one who knows anything. You have ideas in your head (most likely put there through political propaganda) and you refuse to even listen to any idea that puts your preconceived notions into question.
At this point I don’t even expect you to try and answer the question. You can’t, and you have opted to try and attack me rather than accept the fact that you don’t have a clue.
@I Left It is you that is close-minded since you primarily wish maintain the the educational dynamic status quo.
We do not have an actual voucher plan on the table to debate. Therefore even with your superior intellect and supreme knowledge that vouchers can’t work all you really have is your opinion.
What’s truly disappointing is that you won’t even consider market-oriented solutions to improving performance of public school systems.
Porter – It it obvious that I Left did consider a market based alternative, found it wanting and presented a reasonable and well thought explanation for his views.
@John, It is obvious the I Left has declared that their opinion is vouchers can’t work. I Left is certainly entitled to a close-minded opinion, but that opinion is not a fact.
I would not call it an opinion as much as a well thought out theory or hypothesis. These are reasonable questions that should be answered before any voucher system was implemented anywhere. You still have not come up with a way to pay for it. I can think of one but most would not want to here it. It involves spending more money and taxes. BTW vouchers where tried under another name and the supreme court said they could not be used at religious schools.
Thanks John and CDev, but it’s really just not worth it. Porter isn’t going to give any thought to anyone who doesn’t say exactly what he already wants to believe. I would love school choice. I would love to see a way to do that effectively (I think the HCPS magnet program is a great start).
To be frank, the funding issue regarding special needs children is just one of the major potential issues with vouchers. CDev has identified another (the church/state issue). A third one hasn’t been mentioned yet at all. Schools are funded largely through property taxes, regardless of whether or not the person being taxed has children in the schools (or children at all). The justification for this goes back to what I wrote earlier, about good schools having a major impact on property value. Paying taxes towards the local schools makes sense as an investment in your property. People who blindly love vouchers see that as money that belongs to “their kid.” It’s not. Say that you solved the problem of paying for vouchers while still funding special needs kids. Say that you found a solution to the church/state issue. How do you convince childless and empty nest taxpayers that vouchers are a good idea? It would possibly benefit people with school-aged children, but it would do so by taking money out of the local schools, lowering the quality and thus lowering property value.
These are concepts that people like Porter will never consider. Thinking things through is apparently outdated.
@I Left wrote “Paying taxes towards the local schools makes sense as an investment in your property.”
If this were true why did property values fall by over 20% in Harford? According to your unusual logic we should have been insulated from property value declines.
I am going to bet the availability of jobs and a vibrant local economy have a greater appreciative impact on property values.
Property values fell by 20% because of a nation-wide housing bubble bursting. I’m assuming that you don’t live under a rock, which would mean that you knew that already.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:nzk4A0OOkZkJ:ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/18809/1/wp040203.pdf+The+impact+of+school+quality+on+property+value&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShrXvHjs0GUrV2LUeEWs17D8GKJvf0jSQOdEaJyv4kZPHJrKB9ccGD_yWPUugTXBXQqdFqtSzGmzqonWrTvDIFbK5L8oxQrHfAdoktKaUedjSAmy4zpXldYsQ0bg-0ijN_xem-v&sig=AHIEtbRQp-ja4gQfybS1JLMIN6P3Q1rnZw
That link will take you to one of the more recent non-biased studies directly linking school quality to increased property value. There have been hundreds of such studies done, in every conceivable part of the country. They have all come to the same conclusion–that school quality has a drastic impact on home value.
You, sir, a waste of my time. You are either a complete moron (which I do not believe to be true), or you are intentionally making inflammatory statements which you know to be untrue just to create an argument. Either way, I’m done with you.
@I Left, You believe spending more money on education yields better educational outcomes. Your premise is simply untrue.
Porter you are just plain Obtuse. The 20% decline in housing in this county is actually less then the national average. We have also had a quicker recovery in this area then many parts of the country.
That said you have still declined to offer a viable way to pay for vouchers and maintain the federally mandated spending under IDEA. Vouchers will cost more money then the current system. You also seem to be unaware that church/state issue would of course need to be addressed. You advocate solutions which are not workable and more expensive.
Charter schools which I believe you where a fan of are a better option. I like the model of multiple magnets at every county MS and HS thus offering school choice based on what you are interested in. Every school should have something unique.
@Cdev, I’d be happy to comment on an actual voucher proposal or plan that is on the table. What you an the illustrious “I Left” won’t do is even consider a voucher proposal.
Great Op-Ed article in the Wall Street Journal by Michelle Rhee that will likely make I Left’s and Cdev’s blood boil.
“In Budget Crises, an Opening for School Reform”
“School systems can put students first by making sure any layoffs account for teacher quality, not seniority.”
http://tinyurl.com/4qtlg7p
My wife would like to point out she did not get a flat screen TV but she does use her projector in all capacities she needed to check one (not flat screen) out of the library. So your point is valid.
PORTER SAID “Finally taxpayers are tired of the incompetence and dysfunction in Harford County School operations.”
And do you think the teachers are responsible for that? Who do you think makes those stupid decisions? It is not the teachers; they are the ones who have to clean up the mess. Go after the administrators if that is your real concern.
A CITIZEN,
I wrote “taxpayers are tired of the incompetence and dysfunction in Harford County School operations” no where did I assign blame to any one party or group.
Porter
Great Post!
porter, i have worked for retail companies, i have worked in distrubution, manufacturing, pharmecutical, I have never been layed off always been asked to work more hours, take on second jobs, Ive had recruiters ask me to work for them, Even on the low end of the totem pole most employess still recieved a pay raise maybe at low times one percent but still something. At 30 years old I have worked since the time i was 14 most of the time working two jobs, I took jobs anywhere i could and mastered skills from the ground level up, i have taken college classes to better myself, and now I own two homes, just started a business, I may sound like an idiot to you, but I have never been layed off, because im out there doing what it takes giving 100 percent, I never call out of work unless im sick, i come in early, stay late, do jobs that noone else wants to do, when there is overtime i volenteer, when someone is sick i come in, when i get the phone call when im asleep i wake up. I have always recieved a pay raise in a private sector position. If it was not what i wanted I left and went somewhere else. Make yourself competitive, do jobs that noone else wants to do, learn the entire operation from the ground up, make yourself an assest, and with the proper documentation go in and get a pay raise, if not there is another company out there willing to pay you more
porter, i have worked for retail companies, i have worked in distrubution, manufacturing, pharmecutical, I have never been layed off always been asked to work more hours, take on second jobs, Ive had recruiters ask me to work for them, Even on the low end of the totem pole most employess still recieved a pay raise maybe at low times one percent but still something. At 30 years old I have worked since the time i was 14 most of the time working two jobs, I took jobs anywhere i could and mastered skills from the ground level up, i have taken college classes to better myself, and now I own two homes, just started a business, I may sound like an idiot to you, but I have never been layed off, because im out there doing what it takes giving 100 percent, I never call out of work unless im sick, i come in early, stay late, do jobs that noone else wants to do, when there is overtime i volenteer, when someone is sick i come in, when i get the phone call when im asleep i wake up. I have always recieved a pay raise in a private sector position. If it was not what i wanted I left and went somewhere else. Make yourself competitive, do jobs that noone else wants to do, learn the entire operation from the ground up, make yourself an assest, and with the proper documentation go in and get a pay raise, if not there is another company out there willing to pay you more
porter, i have worked for retail companies, i have worked in distrubution, manufacturing, pharmecutical, I have never been layed off always been asked to work more hours, take on second jobs, Ive had recruiters ask me to work for them, Even on the low end of the totem pole most employess still recieved a pay raise maybe at low times one percent but still something. At 30 years old I have worked since the time i was 14 most of the time working two jobs, I took jobs anywhere i could and mastered skills from the ground level up, i have taken college classes to better myself, and now I own two homes, just started a business, I may sound like an idiot to you, but I have never been layed off, because im out there doing what it takes giving 100 percent, I never call out of work unless im sick, i come in early, stay late, do jobs that noone else wants to do, when there is overtime i volenteer, when someone is sick i come in, when i get the phone call when im asleep i wake up. I have always recieved a pay raise in a private sector position. If it was not what i wanted I left and went somewhere else. Make yourself competitive, do jobs that noone else wants to do, learn the entire operation from the ground up, make yourself an assest, and with the proper documentation go in and get a pay raise, if not there is another company out there willing to pay you more
Just A Point
Good for you on your success!
My issue is your false statements “In the private sector pay raises of some sort almost come yearly in good times or bad,”.
Porter
I Left
It is possible for me to thank Point of View for military service and call him an idiot for the ridiculous and baseless statement he made.
Porter
I Left
It is possible for me to thank Just A Point for military service and call him an idiot for the ridiculous and baseless statement he made.
Porter
[Corrected Post]
The easiest way to save money would be to cut out the instructional facilitators at all the schools. These people make upwards of 90k each yet they contribute nothing to the success of the children. They will tell you that they improve instruction through contact with the teachers. My experience has been that, for the most part they do not. Their communication skills are severely lacking, their teaching skills are mediocre at best and most have a disdain for the classroom teacher that prohibits them from contributing to success of anything.
Secondly, a great deal of saving could be realized by eliminating unnecessary programs. Specifically, I am referring to the arts programs at the elementary level. I have seen more waste in this area than any other. The cost of art supplies is sickening. Take a look in any music classroom and imagine the cost of all the instruments. And to make matters worse, the instrumental music ptogram provides all schools with the larger instruments, all paid for by tax dollars.
Thirdly, another reason we lose teachers is due to the way they are treated by administrations in the building. I have seen different levels of discrimination, harassment, intimidation and manipulation of the system in order to satisfy personal egos and agendas. The teachers and staff need to be treated like professionals instead of like fourth grade students. That, in and of itself would help with teacher retention.
Just my two cents.
Mark Music – Do you really think that music and arts programs are unnecessary in elementary school? Or are you saying that there is a more efficient way to deliver these programs?
I ask because you seem to have experience in the schools, but I admit I almost spilled my morning coffee when I read that portion of your comment!
Another reason I ask is that HCPS is holding a press conference on the budget on Monday afternoon, with Q & A from the press. So I’m interested in gathering thoughts/questions from readers that I might pose to the superintendent.
Yes the administration i have worked for is not up to date on labor laws, enviromental compliance, workers rights, even on how to interview, The ones that i have worked for really are ignorant, and i feel really dont know how to run an operation. Even basic saftey Ive seen them telling employees to block fire exits with desks, and trash cans, you name it they will tell you to do an unsafe act.
All of you out there complaining about the school budget need to come up with “SPECIFIC” ways to better manage the money. The proposed budget is online. You can see every line item so get busy with your research and offer some concrete and reasonable alternatives. Virtually everything I read here are just general complaints with no supporting evidence or legitimate suggestions for improvement. It’s easy to talk you need to start backing up what you say.
Should have opened schools 2 hours late today. Roads are horrendous across the county. Another bad decision by Tomback.
I walked to school through snow as much as two inches deep across my city a mile to attend either the Junior High or Senior High that I attended. Harford seems to have a preoccupation with busing students if they live more than 500 yards from the school. The buses congest the highways and produce noxious fumes all for the presumed safety of your children.
I was once called to get my son from the high school because it was raining. I told them he could walk – so they called his mother in Aberdeen and she drove up to get him.
With all this society mandated enabling do you wonder why people think they are entitled?
Porter-
It was a hurricane. If your son were injured on the way home, the school would have been responsible…plus I bet you would have words then. Great parenting.
It was rain – not a hurricane. Rain, you know precipitation – usually does not harm humans when it falls from the sky. Just precisely how much safer is he in a school bus under adverse weather conditions than walking home on his own the 5 city blocks it takes to get him from home to school and back? Why is everything a bus or a car? For a bunch of folks that despise increasing government cost and involvement in your lives, you sure like to spend other people’s money and demand unnecessary services. Running at the drop of a hat to retrieve my son in Bel Air when I get a call to keep him out of the rain is ludicrous, and you are enabling if you think otherwise. It’s especially a non-starter when I have to drive 18 miles from my workplace to pick him up.
The National Weather Service would disagree with you on your distinction between “rain” and “hurricanes”. But you are absolutely right: let’s do away with buses..and cars too! They only lead to a sense of entitlement! Back in my day we walked eight miles to school, up hill both ways, with newspaper on our feet!
Seriously? D.A. Porter, thank you for making me laugh.
I love the comment about the “Wall of Text”
In the age of text messaging and Twitter it’s almost impossible to expect someone to have the attention span to actually read something. Certainly I scanned the “Wall of Text” but I found it informative – not intimidating.
ILEFT at least has the capacity to express himself clearly. If you feel overwhelmed by the need to read it, then perhaps the problem is not ILEFT for writing it, but you for being unwilling and unable to grasp the information he provided.
You might as well just say: “You’re boring me”
I wish we could all make things bright, shiny and loud for your amusement.
@David A. Porter, we disagree.
Cindy,
Each music classroom has at least $20,000 worth of equipment that rarely gets used. Most of these purchases are due to jumping on band wagons (no pun) to buy the latest and greatest or newest, regardless of usefulness or practicality. As an example, why does an elementary band need a full size tuba or a set of tympani? These instruments cost a small fortune and rarely if ever get used at this level.
Art classrooms have kilns, stretchers, etc that may get used once or twice a year. These items also cost quite a bit. Maybe it would be more cost efficient to buy a couple and share them from a central location.
Just a suggestion.
A small problem with that is ease of transportation. also some things may need to be used by everyone all at once. I taught science and we did somthing similar the problem was we all needed the Vandygraph Generators at the same time.
Cindy,
Additionally, I think there is an item in the budget to fnd “recording studios” at several schools. They are not full blown studios, but it is expenditures like this that are just over the top. Thses “studios” will benefit probably no more than 20-30 students. The studios will not have an impact on testing or academic achievement. They should be eliminated. How’s that for a specific budget cutting measure?
The recording studio at Patterson Mill and Bel Air High are used to broadcast morning announcements every morning, and other special events/announcements daily. Instead of the old way of a speaker in the corner of each classroom, there is a flat panel TV where the principal and many students present announcements, simple skits and other things. The Drama department really uses this tool for their enthusiasts and students that are comfortable and witty behind a camera and microphone. The studio is used for other things as well, but it is a wonderful use of technology and I’m glad the newer high schools have the advantage.
J,
Do you really think you know the specific day I am talking about?
How often do you have Hurricanes passing through Harford County?
It was rain. Simple rain. Maybe you need to ride the short bus, but my son can walk home in the rain.
September 30 all Harford County Schools were dismissed early due to a hurricane. This is why parents were called to pick up their children that were hanging around school. The only time. Normally the building is open for practices, games, etc. If you were called, it was on this day. Again, the only day parents were called to pick up their children, per state law.
Perhaps I should “ride the short bus” though making a comment such as that proves you are simply irrational and not educated enough to form a response without statements that are offensive to whole groups of people.
Five city blocks. Five city blocks. Five city blocks. Are you really that timid that you would be afraid to have your 5’10” 225 lb 15 year old walk five city blocks?
That was my choice – not to drive in the weather and add to the chaos that usually ensues when other people are behaving like frightened little girls.
And you may take as much umbrage as you wish from these comments that you feel are irrational based upon your disturbing fixation on contesting my level of care for my child.
You are not his parent. I prefer not to enable him.
The only way to respond to someone dedicated to the use of hyperbole to make their point is to state facts. Harford County did not experience a Hurricane on the date you described. In order for it to be a Hurricane the sustained winds would have had to exceed a specific level – 73 mph. Winds of that magnitude were not present that day so the use of the term Hurricane is incorrect. Certainly there was rain, but since the storm had lost much of it’s energy after landfall, the winds for that Tropical Depression were below 28 mph. Do you have any idea how often 28 mph winds scour Harford County? Frequently and they are not classified as Hurricanes. Your argument is primarily directed at my choice not to cave into your exaggerations. I suspect that you left a post that was registered in my e-mail but apparently deleted by the moderators after they determined that you were launching a personal attack after your inability to deal with my disagreement. Harford County did not call me as a part of some overall plan of contacting parents to request they pick up their kids. My son took it upon himself to ask the nurse to call me because he didn’t want to walk home in the rain. Your suggestion that I was somehow in violation of a school directed admonition is baseless.
After reading this entire thread tonight, I have only one brief comment: Everyone who really wants to understand educational issues should carefully read ILeft’s “wall of text”. Extremely cogent and informative. HCPS lost a fine teacher when we lost you. Thank you for your clarity and concern. Highest Regards.
Porter,
Instead of griping about how people won’t listen to you because of this personal reason or that personal reason, why not take a shot and offer a proposal of your own? ILEFT and a bunch of others have discussed the issue and critiqued you for not understanding the complexities of creating a voucher system. If you have a solution that addresses those limitations and issues I’m sure we would like to hear it. And if you have no proposal of your own try to offer some artful way of extracting yourself from the debate.
The “raise” issue is a ploy. Everyone with any sense knows it will not happen. SO wake up. T is a game player. He knows that people are unhappy with his lack of authentic leadership– he figures– lets tell them they may get a raise to keep them quiet for a while–, Instead all of the idiots believe him and start whining about school system people getting a raise. If you are so jealous of what school system people get (what a joke) then become a teacher and see how much fun it really is– stop hiding in the the private sector and complaining. Every job has its perks and not so good points- live with your decision and stop worrying about everyone else. Oh and yes we all pay taxes– not just you.