Five candidates vying for the Fallston/Abingdon seat on the Harford County Board of Education took similar positions the issues, but displayed stark differences in personal style, priorities, and background, at a PTA forum held on August 23 at Fallston High School.
Reflecting the variations among the candidates, the forum included a few good one-liners; warnings about “food police”; quotes from Winston Churchill and Forest Gump; and one pointed remark that resulted in pushback from a former school board president who happened to be in the audience.
Emily Gudel, vice president of legislation for the Harford County Council PTA, moderated the District B forum before a gathering of about thirty people, asking a total of seven questions in just under two hours.
In the interest of providing Dagger readers with clear portraits of the five candidates in District B, each candidate’s answers to the forum questions are organized under the candidate’s name below. In addition, candidates’ answers to a PTA survey can be found on the HCCPTA web site: www.hccpta.org
School board elections will be held this year only in District A (Edgewood/Fallston), District B (Fallston/Abingdon) and District D (North Harford). The September 14 primary will narrow down the field to the top two vote-getters in each district who will then face off in the November general election. Unlike most races, school board elections are non-partisan, meaning that voters do not have to be affiliated with a political party in order to cast a vote in the primary.
Cassandra R. Beverley
Opening Statement:
A 20-year Harford County resident, Cassandra Beverley said that as a practicing attorney who had also been a social worker, she saw the effect on crime and the community that resulted when young people lacked a good education. She said that she decided, “I should not sit on the sidelines any longer.”
Beverley is also a candidate for re-election to the Harford Democratic Central Committee.
In response to a question about disparities in state test scores and achievement gaps among HCPS…
Beverley commended the majority of teachers and lamented a lack of parenting education, suggesting training for parents, and partnerships between the schools and the community and business. She would look for creative solutions and look to other states for ideas.
In response to a question about whether all schools should have the same course offerings and schedule, or be able to tailor instruction to the needs of their populations…
“The answer is easy, the implementation is hard”, Beverley said, adding that “One size does not fit all.” Noting that there are different learning styles among students and saying that technology could help, she said that curriculum should be tailored to the community. Beverley also praised the magnet programs in HCPS and Maryland’s decision to join the bid for federal Race to the Top funding.
In response to a question about ways to make Harford County an attractive place to teach, given that the county’s starting teacher salaries rank 20th out of 24 Maryland districts…
Beverley said that she had done some research and couldn’t find a lot of data, but Cecil County paid teachers about $1,000 more. She said money was not the only factor in attracting teachers, but that it signaled how much they were valued, noting high salaries paid to sports figures. Beverley called for other incentives for teachers, such as quality day care.
Regarding whether teacher compensation should be tied to student performance…
Beverley did not agree, saying that variables such as student absenteeism were beyond teachers’ control. “Salaries should be dictated by things teachers have control over and can be measured”, she said, suggesting tutoring and mentoring programs, going into homes, and modeling what parents could do to support students.
Regarding support for charter schools…
Beverley was sympathetic to charter schools, she said, but not in favor of taking students out of the system. She said charters could be looked to for innovations to bring into the public schools.
Regarding school uniforms…
Beverley favored uniforms, citing the cost of clothing, the pressure to dress a certain way, and the distraction of certain kinds of clothes. “I tell my children all the time, school is your job.”
Regarding a PTA initiative to support better nutrition and to address childhood obesity…
Children who were educated about healthy choices could guide parents, Beverley said, adding that her husband stopped smoking after their daughter came home from school upset because she didn’t want him to die of cancer. Beverley concluded, “Children can lead the way.”
Closing Remarks:
“I am not an educator, I am an advocate”, Beverley said, adding that she wanted to look at what’s working elsewhere and bring it to Harford County. She cited the need for innovations, partnerships, help for disadvantaged families, and technology to improve education.
Ron Eaton
Opening Statement:
Eaton, a past president and member of the Harford County Board of Education from 1985 – 1996, talked about the rewards of being a school board member, and seeing students on graduation day. Easton said that he was concerned about the current direction of HCPS. Quoting Churchville’s warning, “we build our houses, then they build us” Eaton warned against an over reliance on technology and the loss of social skills.
Eaton, who had been a trustee of Harford Community College, a chairman of the Fallston Community Council and a president of the Youth’s Benefit Elementary PTA, said that parents had been held at a distance over the past several years and that the dialogue between the school system and elected officials needed to improve because those relationships affected money going into the classroom. Eaton concluded, “The most important thing in the school system is to engage and facilitate parents.”
Regarding disparities in state test scores and achievement gaps in HCPS…
The quality of teaching, the material taught, and the home environment all have to work together, Eaton said, adding that it was a national problem and he was not sure he agreed with the standards being used. He called for more parental involvement, but “I don’t have an easy answer to that and I’m not sure anyone does.”
In response to a question about whether educational programs should be the same at all schools, or tailored to individual schools…
Eaton quipped that he defined Washington D.C. as “85 square miles, surrounded by reality”. He said that students needed core competencies such as reading writing, math, science and perhaps foreign language, to be competitive in the world economy, but federal and state government should not be dictating the entire curriculum. He said that parents have a right to expect schools to address differences in non-core competencies, applauding the magnets school programs in HCPS.
Regarding teacher salaries…
Eaton said that as president of the Youth’s Benefit PTA he had learned that people want to belong to an organization that is doing positive things. “When you dash the hopes of the system by back-dooring changes to healthcare, it hurts morale and I’m not sure the board of education gets that.” Eaton, whose daughter is a teacher, said good benefits and non-monetary incentives encourage morale and attract teachers to join the system. Instead of cost-per-pupil comparisons, he said that labor cost in the classroom should be reviewed, adding that by that measure, “we are probably way down the scale.”
Regarding tying teacher compensation to student performance…
“No…we’re not running a production line”, Eaton said, adding that it would become a disincentive for teachers and principals to stay in underperforming schools and that incentives should instead be found to encourage teachers to go to schools in need.
Regarding charter schools…
Saying that charters were not successful in most places, Eaton did not support charter schools, which he said provided an excuse for some to opt-out of existing schools.
Regarding school uniforms…
Eaton said that the issue had been debated during his prior service on the school board, and that he favored uniforms or a “uniform standard of appearance.”
Regarding a PTA initiative to support better nutrition and to address childhood obesity…
Quoting Edward R. Murrow’s warning that television is “a box with lights and wires, what we do with it is up to us”, Eaton said “Look at what that box has done to us.” He said that teachers could model healthy habits for students, through walking or weight loss activities, and suggested friendly competitions among schools, which he said could also bring down healthcare costs.
Closing Remarks:
Eaton emphasized his credentials, including 11 years on the school board, adding in response to a comment from Greg Seltzer “… for the record, I was not a lackey.” He called for everyone to work together and cited the need for good leadership, saying that while on the school board, he never left a call unreturned and ending with an anecdote about solving a problem with a broken elevator for a disabled student. Eaton said that he had enjoyed his prior work on the school board and “it was a privilege to serve.”
Tom Myers
Opening Statement:
Myers noted that Fallston High School was his alma mater and he reviewed his background as a 2005 graduate of Goucher College, with a bachelor’s degree in history. Myers, a comedian who also works in retail sales, said that he had been diagnosed with a severe learning disability at the age of four, but thanks to a special HCPS program, he was able to continue his education and wanted to ensure the same opportunities for others.
Regarding disparities in state test scores and achievement gaps in HCPS…
“The primary responsibility of the board is deciding which programs need funding”, Myers said, adding that equal resources were not the answer and that resources should be directed to close the disparities among schools.
Regarding whether educational programs should be the same across HCPS or tailored to individual schools…
Each school should determine how it is run, Myers said, calling No Child Left Behind “one of the worst decisions”. He said that as many students as possible are geared to passing tests, but graduating without the knowledge needed for college or the job market. He said that reading, math and science should be emphasized every day, and when he was in elementary school, art and gym were every two or three days. He predicted that changes to NCLB would be an issue under the new federal administration and “I want to facilitate those changes.”
Regarding teacher salaries….
Myers said that his campaign slogan “putting education first” was more than a slogan, and he agreed with Cassandra Beverly’s point about highly paid athletes: “It’s an absolute disgrace”. Myers quoted Harford County Councilman Richard Slutzky on the importance of competent and contented teachers in the classroom, adding that his mother and sister were teachers and he would fight for teachers, supplies and technology as a member of the school board.
Regarding tying teacher compensation to student performance…
Myers said that one of the things he enjoyed about campaigning was talking to voters, teachers, unions, and school board members, and he had with him a legal pad full of statistics and quotes, one of which he said warned that students who had a grudge against a teacher could purposely fail, in order to get a teacher fired. Allowing that the anecdote could be exaggerated, Myers said that he had had a good education in HCPS and “Students need to learn they have to work hard for what they’ve got, like I did.”
Regarding support for charter schools…
Myers said that he was not generally in favor, but he would take an objective look, offering praise for the Highlands School (a private school in Harford County for students with learning differences).
On school uniforms…
Myers favored a strict dress code as opposed to uniforms, and drew laughter from the audience by noting that when he was in high school, he “dressed to impress” by wearing turtlenecks and vests and “as a result, I didn’t go on very many dates.”
Myers said the cost of uniforms for nearly 40,000 students could be better used to support teachers and would be fiscally irresponsible for the school system at this time.
Regarding a PTA initiative to support better nutrition and to address childhood obesity…
“Not to kiss up to the PTA, but I think it’s a great issue.” Myers called for replacing snack and soda machines with healthy alternatives, and for health classes to be offered every year in grades K – 12.
Closing Remarks:
Myers said that he was not a career politician, a lawyer, or business owner and “I haven’t even played one on TV”, but he had been actively campaigning with ideas that appealed across the political spectrum and he looked forward to the opportunity to serve
Gregory N. Seltzer
Opening Statement:
Declaring “I love learning and I love teaching”, Seltzer reviewed his background as a college instructor and his history as volunteer in HCPS. Having also served as a member of the Harford County Board of Elections and a trustee of the Harford County Public Library, Seltzer said, “I was instrumental in keeping the Fallston Library open.” Harford County was well-off, Seltzer said, but there was a need to be prudent and HCPS had not been good stewards of resources. He said he would support zero-based budgeting and look for the “best bang for the educational dollar.”
Regarding disparities in state test scores and achievement gaps in HCPS…
Seltzer said the scores pained him, and “the pat answer is money but I don’t think money has ever been the solution.” He said that funding had gone up each year, citing a figure of $9,700 spent per student, “but we don’t see improvements in scores”. He said he agreed with the need for standards, but high quality teachers were not in all the schools. He citied concerns including single parent families and the percentage of students on free and reduced meals, adding that a teacher only had 55 minutes per day with students and it was important to partner with families.
Regarding whether all schools should have the same course offerings and schedule, or be able to tailor instruction to the needs of the population…
The curriculum needs to be unique to each school, Seltzer said. Calling himself a “Constitutional conservative” and referencing the tenth amendment to the U.S. Constitution, he said that he supported local control. He also called for common cultural literacy and said that he had seen students who “couldn’t make subject and verb agree, yet they have passed the high school assessments. Something is wrong.” He concluded, “Students need to think clearly, write clearly and read clearly. Everything else is peripheral.”
In response to a question about ways to make Harford County an attractive place to teach, given that the county’s starting teacher salaries rank 20th out of 24 Maryland districts…
“The question is rather moot because of the Fairness in Negotiations Act”, Seltzer said, which he explained would limit the school board’s influence by imposing binding arbitration on labor disputes. Seltzer called the law “one of the worst things that could have been foisted” on the school system.
Regarding support for tying teacher compensation to student performance…
Seltzer was opposed, adding that the education policies of President Barack Obama, U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan, and Maryland Governor Martin O’Malley had failed. He cited the high drop out rate in Secretary Duncan’s home district of Chicago. Seltzer said that federal money such as Race to the Top comes with strings attached, calling RTTT “a flawed social engineering program.”
Regarding support for charter schools…
“Yes, I support the American way”, Seltzer said, adding that competition had made America great and, “If you can’t survive in the marketplace, then you need to die.” But he said that until the economy improves, it was not the time to take money away from the public schools. Seltzer added that there was evidence that charters do well and, “We want to be the best through innovation and that’s what charter schools do.”
Regarding school uniforms…
Joking that he was “B.C. – before computers, before cable”, Seltzer said that he wore a tie to school every day as an instructor, and didn’t want to see students’ navels and pants hanging down. Adults have dress codes in business and in the military, Seltzer said, and he suggested that schools could each pick their own uniform and “wear it with pride.”
Regarding a PTA initiative to support better nutrition and to address childhood obesity…
Quoting statistics on the number of students in U.S. classrooms, Seltzer said that he was in support of the initiative in schools, adding, “Health is a practical form of education.” He said that parents needed to model good behavior and suggested service hours for parents. He commended the PTA for their advocacy.
Closing Remarks:
Counting 28 people in the audience, Seltzer said that he was pained by the turnout, “This room should have been full here tonight.” Seltzer said that he had spent 28 years in the classroom and was the only candidate who had recently served in HCPS.
In addition to serving on a social studies advisory committee in HCPS, Seltzer said prior to the forum that he had sought a gubernatorial appointment to the school board seat vacated by Patrick Hess. The seat was later filled by Board Member Tom Evans.
At the forum, Seltzer said that he was an advocate for elections, and appointed board members were “lackeys and stooges” who needed to do the Governor’s bidding.
The comment propelled Pat Hess from the audience to confront Seltzer immediately after the forum ended, telling Seltzer that he had done no one else’s bidding while on the school board.
If elected, Seltzer said he planned to do outreach in the community, holding meetings at local libraries, and he suggested that school board meetings should also float to various county locations. Seltzer concluded, “If I don’t do a good job in four years, throw me out. That’s the beauty of democracy.”
William Street
Opening Statement:
Street reviewed his background, which includes a career in senior management with the federal government and a second career as a teacher in Baltimore County. Street, who is the brother of register of wills candidate Merrie Street, said “The largest business in the U.S. is education.”
Street said he had three priorities: high quality teachers and administrators in each school; reviewing the organizational structure of the school system; and a greater transparency of school operations. He said there was a need for an honor code and that students needed to be taught “how to think, not what to think.”
Regarding disparities in state test scores and achievement gaps among public schools HCPS…
“My goal is to bring positive parity to all schools”, Street said, adding that tenure allowed teachers to move out of troubled schools, meaning their positions had to be backfilled by teachers with less experience. Street concluded “We should send our best teachers where the need is, regardless of their wants.”
In response to a question about whether educational programs and schedules should be the same at all schools, or tailored to individual schools…
After noting the requirements of state testing and national standards now in development, Street said, “I don’t see how you can tailor course content when you have all these assessments.”, but he added that it may be possible at the county level, listing the HCPS magnet programs as examples. Regarding the four-period modified block schedule, where most classes meet every other day, Street said “you need mandatory classes every day”, adding that one size does not fit all.
In response to a question about ways to make Harford County an attractive place to teach, given that the county’s starting salaries for teachers rank 20th out of 24 Maryland districts…
Street questioned the meaning behind Harford County’s rank. “How do we know we’re not competitive?” Paraphrasing comments made by others about the need to attract and retain the best teachers Street said that teachers “all think they’re the best…Are we keeping the best teachers?…Do we have exit interviews?” Saying that money was not the only factor in retaining top teachers, Street went on to question whether teacher compensation was out of line with professions in other areas, comparing teachers’ 190 days, to 260 average working days per year. (Ron Eaton later addressed this comparison during his own remarks, calling it an “unfair assessment”)
On tying teacher compensation to student performance…
Street strongly disagreed with the concept, saying it would risk losing the best teachers and adding that the lack of performance was not simply a student or a teacher problem. He said that teacher compensation should not be tied to something that teachers can’t control.
Regarding charter schools…
Street had three questions: Can we afford it? – Will students flee? – Does competition improve results? Charters fill a niche between public and private schools, Street said, and provided both a learning alternative for students and flexibility for teachers, free from regulations. As a former substitute teacher at Aberdeen HS, Street decried the lack of teacher authority, saying that teachers to be at a certain place in the curriculum on a certain day and, “if not, you’ve done a bad job.” After noting that charters generally had three to five years to survive, Street said that if William Paca Elementary School (which is on the state’s list of schools in need of improvement) had been a charter school, “it would be closed down now and all the people would be fired.” Street said that he could support charters, but questioned why HCPS couldn’t do what charters do.
On school uniforms…
Street was in absolute agreement, adding that uniforms put all students on the same level in presenting themselves. He said that uniforms built confidence; could help reduce bullying; and would reduce the pressure on parents to buy certain clothes, saving money. Street corrected an earlier comment from candidate Tom Myers, who had talked about uniforms as a cost to the school system, saying that parents would pay for the school uniforms.
Regarding a PTA initiative to support better nutrition and to address childhood obesity…
Street was in support, but saw a “slippery slope in dictating the way people should eat, act and dress.” He said that good habits were important, but questioned the idea of “food police”, asking what could be done if parents didn’t pack a healthy lunch or when the cafeteria prepared healthy food that students didn’t eat. “I believe we should do something, but we have to be careful” Street said, “We can educate, but we can’t dictate.”
Closing Statement:
Reading from thank you notes written by parents and students during his time as a teacher, Street said that he helped a student find her niche and stimulated students without pressure, stressing thought before action or opinion. Street, who cited newspaper articles throughout the forum, concluded with one quote from Plato – “The direction in which education starts a man will determine his future life.” and ending with one from Forest Gump – “That’s all I have to say about that.”
“Myers, a comedian who also works in retail sales”
What the hell? 7-11 is considered retail? By who?
That’s not even the worst offense in that blurb; Tom’s no comedian either!
Tom, you would make a good politician – you already have the lying part down pat!
Q – Why did President Nixon see Deep Throat 10 times?
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A – He wanted to get it down Pat.
Ba-da-bing
lol!
I hope you’re taking notes, Myers!
All these candidates seem to favor school uniforms, which I am against. Do we really want to live in a world where government employees can force us to buy something against our will? I don’t want anyone telling me I HAVE to purchase anything, especially something as expensive as a wardrobe for my children. This would require most parents to either puchase 2 separate wardrobes or require students to wear their uniform all day long. Anyone who favors allowing students to purchase something like khaki pants and a certain color polo because they think it will take away the competition between students over clothes is naive. Some kids will get their “uniforms” at Walmart and some will get them from Abercrombie, just like they buy their clothes now. Having a certain store where parents are forced to buy their clothes from is even worse. We shouldn’t have a government agency forcing parents to support a certain business either. That is wrong!
Have a dress code and make sure it is enforced. There is no reason for uniforms. They will just make students feel uncomfortable because they will be limited in choice and won’t have the option of getting clothes that fit well like they do with a dress code. Does anyone think students learn better when they are fidgeting with uncomfortable clothes?
Sandy~
For the record (and it is mentioned in this article), I came out against school uniforms and in favor of a strict dress code. The requirement on the part of parents to purchase additional items, when in some cases they may already be on a tight budget after spending money on clothes, shoes, school supplies and groceries (including the necessities to needed to pack lunches), is a burden on some families and a policy such as this should not be set by the public school system. As a member of the Board of Education, there is no way I will support such an action if it ever comes before me.
I hope this puts you at ease.
Tom Myers
Candidate, Harford County Board of Education – District B
Tom, I’m glad to hear you are against school uniforms. Do we really think parents can’t handle dressing their kids appropriately? Sure, there are a few problems, but let’s deal with them when they happen instead of punishing the entire student body. When my son was redistricted from Fallston Middle to Bel Air middle for 8th grade, the kids called it Bel Air detention center because they had so many less freedoms. They resented it and many of them had their grades suffer a bit because they were so unhappy. If school uniforms are pushed on these kids, who will see it as a punishment, the rebellion will be more than the administration and teachers are expecting.
Most parents and students who are against this know that they aren’t going to expell half of the student population. What if they pass this policy and half of the students refuse? Our current BOE has a problem with foresight on a lot of issues, this one included.
Sandy I am not aware that the uniform issue progressed much after the survey sent home a few years ago.
PS I think alot of the redistricted kids drew their negative attitude of Bel Air from their parents who spent months badmouthing Bel Air before they walked in the door.
Cdev, the uniform issue was set aside when the BOE was asked to cut back their budget. The main advocate, on the board, was Pat Hess, and now that he is no longer on the board, it kind of disappeared for now. It is still out there, just on the back burner.
As for parents badmouthing the schools in Bel Air, that was just something the board members at the time kept saying to discredit those who were fighting against the way the redistricting was done. When we would bring up facts about the numbers, like the schools in Fallston would be way undercapacity and Bel Air, which is in the developement envelope, would be at capacity and leave no room for the magnet they wanted to put there, and Patterson Mill would be overcrowded, they just did what they could to discredit us. Just like in politics, if someone keeps saying something enough times, some people will just blindly believe it. There may have been some of that, I certainly can’t speak for every parent, but most of us had absolutely no problem with the schools in Bel Air, we just didn’t want the kids bounced around for no reason. Too many kids were moved and not for the reason they were telling everyone. Learning all the facts, I’m pretty sure the plan was to overcrowd Bel Air so that more kids would be moved to put Patterson Mill over capacity so that when the new Edgewood High School opens with a higher capacity even though the school presently is way under capacity, they have a reason to redistrict the kids from Patterson Mill into the new Edgewood High and are hoping to get less complaints because it is a new building.
Totally off topic, but needed as a background. Most of us said nothing negative about the schools in Bel Air. The fact was that Bel Air generally had the highest testing scores in the county. My son wasn’t thrilled about leaving his friends in 8th grade, but he went into it with no negative feelings about Bel Air Middle. He liked the teachers just fine, but the school was run totally differently. The first day of school he found out that they had assigned seats in the cafeteria. Not only did he have to leave most of his friends, but he couldn’t even sit with the ones who moved with him during lunch. The principal told me that she was worried there would be “chaos” if the students could choose their own seats. Then he learned there was no big, 8th grade field trip. At Fallston they waited since 6th grade to get to go on the trip to Hershey Park. We asked about it and the principal told us she was too afraid to take the kids to an amusement park. At Fallston the kids were allowed to wear flip flops, at Bel Air they weren’t. At Fallston they were free to get from class to class on their own, in Bel Air they had to walk in lines to some places, like to the cafeteria or to assemblies, in a line like elementary school. They were used to freedoms at Fallston that they no longer had.
That’s a long way of saying that no, I and many other parents did not give our kids a negative view of Bel Air schools. There was just such a huge difference than what they were used to in a way they said they were treated like kindergarteners. You can’t take freedoms away from teenagers without making them feel like they are being punished. It’s amazing to me that so many educators can’t see that. If they make students wear uniforms, there will be a huge rebellion. Not because any parents put the thoughts in their heads, but because teenagers see the taking away of freedoms as a punishment.
I don’t have a vested interest in this. My youngest is a junior so he will never be affected by the school uniform decision. I have never gotten involved in education issues just to advocate for my kids, I have been involved to advocate for what I think is in the best interest of all the students. I think school uniforms are going to cause more problems for parents and kids and I think it takes away the opportunity for parents to teach their children how to dress appropriately. I’m sure no one expects there to be a uniform policy in most colleges or in most jobs. Schools are supposed to ready our children for life, acting and dressing appropriately is part of that.
Sandy I can agree with the teaching your kids how to dress appropriately part. Sadly a significant number of parents do not. You mentioned flip flops as part of the lost freedoms. Do you think flip flops are appropriate work place dress?
As far as the bad mouthing being fabricated. I was at the Harford mall and asked to sign a petition to keep the kids at Fallston. I said I prefer not to and before I could explain why I was told “to sign it to keep the trash from Magnolia out of Fallston.” The plan was to redistrict down to rt 7 from the currently existing boundary but it got switched to Franklinville road. That sure sounds like parents bad mouthing schools and the people in those schools. Maybe that was not every one but…. I also think a field trip to Hershy Park is not the best use of school system time or money unless it is a physics day or something. Was that the point of the trip?
Sandy,
I would suggest uniforms be started at all elementary schools and moved progressively to the middle and high schools. Children and parents could then get used to the idea and it would be no big deal after that.
There are many places where uniforms (in the strictest sense of the word) are required by employers and an unofficial (but nonetheless strictly enforced) dress code in the business world. School uniforms would prepare students for this real world experience.
The same goes for tattoos and body piercings which will exclude you from certain professions and employment opportunities.
Cdev, I think flip flops are appropriate in some work places and not in others. And by forcing kids to wear uniforms you take the opportunity away from them to learn that. My oldest has 3 part time jobs and goes to college. Flip flops are appropriate for college. They are not appropriate for her job teaching pre school. They are fine for her job working in a shoe store. And generally barefeet are preferred when she teaches dance classes. You can’t generalize and kids lose the opportunity to learn how to make that decision. My other daughter is going to UMBC. She is in a Living Learning Community where she lives on the same floor as other students with similar majors. They do internships and meet with people who work in that field. She can go to classes in her sweats and baggy t-shirts, but has a business suit she wears when appropriate. She had great practice for this at the science and math academy. When working on her capstone project she would have to dress up on days she met with her mentor. If she were forced to wear a school uniform, she would not have looked as professional showing up to a place of business dressed in a school uniform.
In my husband’s office as a computer consultant, they dress very casually most days, but on days they meet with clients they dress according to the client’s work dress code. One client may dress business casual, another may wear a suit and tie. Kids need to learn that different places and different situations require different dress.
I agree about the Hershey Trip, although the parents or students had to pay for it. They didn’t use school funds. Technically, it was part of the science curriculum, they don’t have a physics class in middle school but that’s the same idea. And they did have one worksheet they had to do. But that really was an excuse, it was a reward for getting through middle school. I agree it really isn’t the best use of school time, but when kids are looking forward to something for that long, you can’t expect them to be happy about losing it.
All I can say about the survey you experienced is WOW! That is really terrible. Fallston would have been better off if they would have stayed with the plan to move more of the students from that area. Or if they would have moved less students from Fallston to Bel Air. Fallston High School, being under capacity, can’t offer as many classes as they used to because there aren’t enough students to support them. That’s a shame for the students.
Sandy while they do not have physics in middle school the mechanics goals and objectives can be addressed in an amusement park. I was however under the impression that it was not appropriate for middle school students as it was more geared to the high school students it is not part of the science curriculum in middle school. Maybe the parent paid for it but it is not an effective use of time. I am also pretty sure knowing the principal at fallston came from another school that I am familar with the same policy on flip flops that it seems the rest of the county follows is now being enforced at FMS I also am pretty sure the assigned seats in the cafeteria is there too!
Curious, I definitely think your idea of starting with the younger kids is the best way, if they do implement uniforms. Would you start with the entire elementary school or just the kindergarten kids? I’m thinking you would have to do the whole school, but then you would have some pretty unhappy 4th and 5th graders. But otherwise I think there may be resentment between grades when 3rd graders are in uniforms and 4th graders aren’t. This solution still doesn’t solve the problem of uncomfortable fit or special needs children.
I still disagree with uniforms preparing anyone for how to dress. If your child grows up to be a police officer, for example, they just wear what they are given to wear as a uniform. I don’t think that requires any learning or preparation. The learning comes when they need to figure out how to dress for a specific occassion or job. Anyone can put on a uniform, it’s much harder when you have to decide for yourself what is or isn’t appropriate.
Cdev, we are in agreement that the field trip was a waste of school time, as are most field trips in my opinion. My point was that the kids were disappointed. And it really doesn’t matter what the new principal at FMS does, my point was that the kids were disappointed in losing their freedom. Flip flops are allowed under HCPS dress code, however principals are allowed to tighten that dress code if they want to. But officially, they are allowed. When my son attended FMS, they were required to sit at a specific set of tables, in one area, but they could choose which table and which seat. I don’t know what they do there now, but it isn’t relative to my point. They went from choosing a group of friends to sit with to being moved away from many of their friends and having to sit in an assigned seat where they knew no one. The students were very upset and felt like they were treated like they were back in elementary school, they didn’t like freedom being taken away when they did nothing wrong to deserve it. That is the reason many students hated being at BAMS, not because of parents bad mouthing the school. I think everyone was in agreement that BAMS is a great school, we didn’t even know about how differently they treated the kids until they came home complaining about it.
But could we also not argue that it was a learning experience. like in the real world. not all bosses are going to be the same. They need to learn how to respond appropriately and get over it.
Cdev, you are so right. It was a good learning experience. I tell my kids that whenever they have a teacher they don’t like. Life isn’t always fair and you are probably going to have a boss one day that you don’t like! I wasn’t complaining about BAMS, just saying that it wasn’t the parents who made the kids unhappy. They made up their own minds because they didn’t like the differences. If they would have started there in 6th grade it would have been just fine.
My kids are in private school and I can assure you uniforms are a very good idea. I don’t consider myself naïve. Many countries around the world use uniforms in public schools. Your first point about being forced to buy something is exactly what the health care bill does… however; you’d be buying uniforms that are sturdy enough to last many years of use. There are also times when used uniforms are bought and sold. Your kids already have street clothes so “2 separate wardrobes” is not an issue (plus I’m not sure how 2 or 3 uniform sets constitutes a “wardrobe”). My kids get enough clothing at Christmas and birthdays to fill in. It certainly does take away competition because they truly are all wearing the same thing… hence the title “uniform”.
Uniforms free the kids to concentrate on learning instead of comparing what others are wearing. Do you think paying $50 for $3 jeans or $100 plus for $5 sneakers is setting a good example? The current public school uniform seems to be anything that says Hollister or Aero… they just don’t know they’re in a uniform. My kids are learning that who you are is more important than what you wear.
I agree. Uniforms also can offer options within tighter parameters. BTW do you get a choice about having autoinsurance?
It is always interesting to note that significant numbers of teachers are in favor school uniforms. Could it be that they are the ones who actually experience the problems that indiscriminate dress by students can cause within the school environment, where education is supposed to be the main purpose, not the display of the latest fashion.
Research data supports the many benefits of school uniforms including improved test scores. Why is it that so many of those that oppose uniforms are also the same group that complain about poor test results. The connection is obvious.
Tom, While I appreciate your sincerity and like your views on many issues I am afraid I will have to disagree with you on this one.
When I go back to my days in a traditional classroom in a public school I will tell you my big issue with a dress code versus uniforms. My wife has confirmed that this is still the case. With a dress code left for teachers to enforce and refer to administration you end up with a few issues.
1) Lack of support. The teacher (despite their feelings about the rule) sends the kids to the office and gets the kid back without even being asked to fix the problem. The kid then thinks the rule is a joke and doesn’t follow it. Worse yet sometimes the parent, who doesn’t like the rule, comes and complains you are picking on their child. You spend an inordinate amount of time dealing with this issue and it makes you as a teacher wish you never opened your mouth.
2) Battle not worth fighting. After going through item 1 continued enforcement leads you to policing clothes instead of actually teaching. So as to not single out one kid. The kids either get a rise out of sending you through this excercise or regard you as a tightwad and you fail to form the positive relationship that makes teaching fun, enjoyable and more valuable. I know some of you are going to say that you are not there to be liked. I agree however kids tune out the teacher who “is being difficult”
3) Interpretation. No matter how well worded and objectively defined you get the problem that fashion will evolve constently and kids will find ways to beat the system. The more complexity to the system the harder it is to enforce. The simple uniform leaves little to memorize and the little wiggle room.
Cdev, I agree that a dress code is hard to enforce. Some teachers report it, some don’t, and all administrators seem to do their own thing. Uniforms would make things clearer, but I don’t see how you could really enforce it. Are we really going to expel students whose parents don’t buy them uniforms?
I don’t know the answer to what to do if… It seems lots of places they hold tghe kids out of class until they comply. I agree if uniforms ever got adopted it should be in a manner that has buy in and support from the majority of the school community. It seemed that 56% of parents thought it was a good idea. not what I would call overwhelming but I question if some of those surveys where not filled out by the kid and never made it home.
curious, there are just as many studies that show school uniforms lowers performance. We all have to do the research and use our own common sense and decide what makes the most sense to us. All research data doesn’t support school uniforms, neither does it oppose them.
Please tell me where these studies can be found. There are some situations where performance has not risen, but in the same situations behavior has improved – which is a plus in any school environment. I have seen no objective studies where school uniforms were directly tied to lower student achievement.
curious, just google school uniforms pros and cons and you will get many links of studies both supporting and not supporting school uniforms. It seems that they are more likely to help in inner city and under performing schools and more likely to do nothing or do harm in schools that didn’t have trouble to begin with. One thing that does seem to be fairly consistent is that even the parents who thought they were going to save money mostly agree that they ended up spending more. Uniforms aren’t generally on sales or clearance and many people buy the majority of their kid’s clothing when it is on sale. They also still have to buy regular clothes for their kids because they don’t want to wear uniforms outside of school. If they were very comfortable, they wouldn’t want to wear street clothes when they had a choice of what to wear.
Cdev, the obvious answer is, of course. You can choose not to drive. That isn’t really the point though. When you buy auto insurance you get a choice. Different companies, different levels of coverage, different deductibles. I guess I would equate your statement with some type of auto insurance is required if you are going to have a car and some type of clothing is required if you are going to attend school. No naked students. To take it farther, just as there are minimum requirements for auto insurance we can have some standards in a dress code. We don’t require everyone to have the exact same insurance policy from the same insurance company.
thinking of a new name,
I’m glad that uniforms work well for your kids, but you don’t understand the board’s proposed uniform policy. They want the kids to wear khaki pants and a certain color polo shirt, to be decided on by each school. They are against picking a specific supplier, instead they favor letting the kids pick the store. So you will still have some kids getting their uniforms from WalMart and some kids getting their uniforms from Hollister or Abercrombie. They really have to, we can’t have the school system choosing a supplier that parents have to support. That would be like telling them they have to get all their school supplies at Staples. Besides, when your children get together with their school friends outside of schools, do they normally wear their uniforms?
As far as what other countries do, I don’t see the relevence at all. They do a lot of things in different countries that I don’t support. Most European countries are socialist and I certainly don’t support that. The health care bill, as written, is supposed to allow you to keep your insurance policy if you are happy with it. Of course, common sense tells you that the bill is designed to put other insurance companies out of business, they just hide that part. Many constitutional scholars are saying it is probably unconstitutional for the government to force citizens to purchase anything. Again, I still don’t see the relevence.
Your examples seem to leave out the fact that most kids grow. If a child can wear the same size for 3 years then they should be referred to a pediatric endocrinologist because that is the main symptom that the child has a growth disorder. I know this because my oldest daughter is growth hormone deficient. She is in college now, but if she were ever forced to wear a uniform, from a specific supplier, she would never be able to have school clothes that fit her comfortably. Kids come in all shapes and sizes. There are very few people who can go into ANY store and buy pants that fit comfortably. I know I can’t. Some are fuller in the hips, some sit a little higher or lower, some taper more at the waist. Since not having baggy clothes, or pants that don’t touch the floor is part of the dress code, it would be impossible for every child to have clothes that fit comfortably if they all came from the same supplier. I believe this would affect their ability to pay attention. I know if I am uncomfortable it affects my ability to focus. This is even more of a problem for a child with a growth disorder as they don’t grow evenly. And what about children with disabilities, like those who need clothes appropriate for wheelchairs or feeding tubes?
I have never paid $50 for jeans or $100 for any kind of shoes. We do a lot of clearance shopping. Uniforms would prevent us from sale shopping. I also sew clothes for my oldest daughter, since she can almost never buy clothes off the rack. What would you recommend for situations like that?
I can also tell you that I have had kids in Bel Air Middle, Bel Air High, Fallston Middle, Fallston High, Aberdeen High, and Forest Lakes Elementary. I talked to my kids about this when it was first being discussed and none of them had ever heard any kind of competitiveness or teasing about clothing brands. Maybe that is more of an issue with kids in private school either because the parents can afford more since they are in a situation where they can afford tuition and are more likely to be in a higher income bracket, or maybe it is something that was an issue some parents had and they assume kids in this generation have the same issue.
By making kids wear uniforms you take away a learning experience. They need to learn how to dress appropriately. The earlier they learn this, the better. I am perfectly capable of teaching this to my children, I don’t need the school system to tell me what is appropriate. We live in a free country, I prefer to keep it that way.
What consequences would you suggest for kids, or parents, who refuse to purchase uniforms? Before you make a rule, you have to be willing to enforce it. Short of expelling anyone who doesn’t wear a uniform, how would you assure that no one breaks the rule? Would you really want to deny them an education because of their clothes?
Sandy
Uniforms are a good idea and none of your objections are very convincing.
Crystal
Crystal, Why don’t you share some reasons you disagree? Or at least why you think uniforms are a good idea? The more opinions voiced, the more we learn. Simply saying “uniforms are a good idea” or “your objections are (not) very convincing.” doesn’t give us anything to think about.
Sandy
School uniforms create a sense of unity and pride, they help students focus on who they are and not on the trappings of what they wear and it simplifies parents and students busy lives.
Crystal
Sandy
School uniforms create a sense of unity and pride, they help students focus on who they are and not on the trappings of what they wear and it simplifies parents and students busy lives.
Crystal
Crystal, thank you for sharing your thoughts. For many families, this would not simplify things, but I understand it may for some. I see shopping time as hard enough without going to every store in Harford and Baltimore counties trying to find a pair of khaki pants to fit my daughter. For my family, that would be a nightmare.
I have never even heard of a time in our schools where the kids even cared about what brand someone else was wearing. I remember that from when I was growing up, but I volunteered many hours in many different schools, and I just don’t see that happening in Harford County. Our schools are so economically diverse that I really don’t think the kids care.
As far as school pride, I hadn’t considered that. I think most kids would just resent it, at least that’s what the polling showed when the survey was sent to the kids and small groups of kids were met with from each school. Maybe in time that would change? I honestly don’t know. I do know that you rarely see kids wearing “spirit wear” from their high schools, other than sweatpants and hoodies, which they wouldn’t be allowed to wear anyway. I’ve never seen a student wearing a polo with the school’s name or mascot although they are sold at most schools. That’s an interesting thought though, you gave me something to think about.
Sandy,
You have too much to day…so much in fact that you end up contradicting yourself.
You said that a uniform policy would cause some students shopping at Wal-Mart and others at Abercrombie … then in another post, you say that you’ve never heard of a time in our school where kids cared about what brand they were wearing.
You want the dress code enforced, but are the first one to complain about the administration at Bel Air Middle enforcing the policy about wearing flip flops.
You think the block schedule limits the student’s time in academic subjects, but are complaining about your son not getting to go on a trip to Hersheypark.
You come off as being a chronic complainer…with no real solutions… Just a I-Know-Better-Than-Everyone-Else mentality.
My kids have been in public and private schools and they both like wearing uniforms, which really surprised me. They both also enjoy(ed) the occasional out-of-uniform days their schools offer(ed). I think uniforms have saved me money (not enough to pay the tuition, however). I have found khaki pants on the sale racks of Jos.A.Banks for $5.
With my daughter, I purchased one set (skirts, pants, shirts, pullovers), which she wore for the three years she was in a private high school and I spent about $300. My son is still growing, so I do have to buy him longer pants each year. However, because he wears a shirt, tie, sports coat, and khakis as his uniform, I never have to run out to get him something nice if we have to go to something dressy.
I think uniforms are great. They save time and money for most people.
Sandy you can save alot of time and get khaki pants cheaply online from many fine retailers. Some of us who wear a size like 36×36 or 38×36 know this all to well as we can not find them in a store in our size at all. I garuntee you can get a weeks worth online from Eddie Bauer in the clerence section for the same amount as 2 hollister shirts!
John, I am shocked at the nasty tone this discussion has taken. We all shop differently and some of us have kids with special fitting problems. I shop the way that works for me to get the best prices I can and pay much less than the estimates the BOE’s proposal listed. Others may shop differently and get better or worse deals. I just did some online shopping with my girls this afternoon, with a coupon and shopping the clearance items, we didn’t pay more than $5 for any shirts or any more than $7 for shorts or capris on Aeropostale’s website. That is normal prices for us, a good average for what we are willing to pay for clothing.
You have managed to misrepresent each of my statements you listed so I will try one more time to explain them, in the interest of sharing ideas, then I will be bailing out of this discussion. I choose not to participate in this nastiness.
I didn’t say that the students didn’t care where they bought their own clothes, I said the students didn’t care where OTHER students bought their clothes. My kids just want their clothes to be comfortable and something they like. I think most kids agree.
I didn’t complain about the flip flop policy at BAMS, I was just explaining to Cdev that it was one of the reasons the students were unhappy because it was a change in a freedom they were used to. And it isn’t enforcing the dress code policy, the HCPS policy allows flip flops. The principal at BAMS was the one who decided not to allow flip flops in that school, which was her right. Since the principal at FMS followed the BOE policy as is, this made the redistricted students (girls mostly, my son didn’t care because he doesn’t wear flip flops) unhappy. And for the record, neither of these principals are at the schools any longer.
As for the Hershey Park trip, again I was agreeing that it was a waste of a school day, but I was, again, explaining to Cdev that it was another reason the kids were unhappy. I wasn’t advocating for or against the trip, but Cdev suggested that the kids may have disliked their new school because of what their parents said and I was telling him the reasons the kids gave for being unhappy.
I didn’t go into this discussion to prove a point or to even win anyone over, I was sharing my point of view. When we have a debate we can all learn what others are thnking. According to the survey from HCPS, about half of the parents are also against uniforms. If passed, it will be a tough policy to enforce. How will the school board force parents to buy something they don’t want to buy?
I think we are beating a dead horse here. Sandy has obviously made up her mind about this issue and no amount of explanation or attempts to justify the wearing of school uniforms will convince her otherwise. Can we move on to another subject.
@Sandy, yes uniforms work well for us. That’s because it’s economically sound. How many outfits are required for a student to feel comfortable that they’re not repeating their outfit too often? Two weeks worth? Three? Four? You say “but you don’t understand the board’s proposed uniform policy. They want the kids to wear khaki pants and a certain color polo shirt,” … oh, the humanity! Do you really think I’m too dimwitted to understand khaki pants, polo shirt? And no, my kids wear uniforms for school only… not when we’re out – unless it’s right after school and they’ve never mentioned feeling uncomfortable or self conscious in their uniform.
My mention of other countries was simply that their public schools do this… not only private schools. That seems relevant to me when so many studies bemoan the US position in the world with regard to education… but if you don’t see the relevance that’s cool. My mention of the health care bill was in reference to your statement that the government would force you to purchase something. The bill requires you to purchase insurance whether you want it or not. That’s why it’s relevant.
I can assure you that teasing about clothing in private school is not an issue (mainly since they’re all wearing uniforms). I am not in any higher income bracket. I make very real sacrifices – as do many of the other parents – to put my kids in private school because I believe in it and they are more important than a new SUV or a posh McMansion… I could put my kids in public school today and get a BMW instead of driving a ten year old truck. I frequently impress on my kids that brand name clothing is for suckers. I ask them if Tommy Hilfiger would wear a shirt with their name on it. Can you really tell the difference between khaki shorts from Target and those from Macy’s?
You say “They need to learn how to dress appropriately.” Well, that’s what this is about isn’t it? The issue with what some parents believe is appropriate? Or maybe when the clothes they show up in school wearing aren’t what Mommy last saw them in?
As far as enforcement… isn’t it the law that children must attend school? The child cannot attend until properly attired… and the parents are in violation of the law until the child attends. Simple.
Much of your argument centers on how the kids “feel”, are they “happy”, “what do they want”… who’s in charge? Kids are in school to learn. That’s their job at the moment and they need to know that life isn’t always sunshine happy time give me what I want.
thinking of a new name, I said I was not going to comment on this discussion because of the nastiness, so I will not be responding to most of your comments, only the ones that seem sincere. We don’t have much worry about how many sets of clothes, we buy things when they are cheap. And my son just drives me crazy, he hates to shop so when he finds something he likes for a price I agree is reasonable, he will just buy 4 of the exact same thing. We don’t school clothes shop at the beginning of the school year, we just buy clothes as they are needed. Between street clothes, concert clothes, and work clothes, I don’t want the added expense of uniforms, and that isn’t counting the clothes they need for extra curricular activities. My daughter has 3 jobs, my son has 2, that’s enough of a clothing budget for us. I resent government interference in how I raise my family.
I completely disagree with your opinion that kids are in charge when parents are against uniforms, in fact, it sounds like the opposite to me. I tell my kids what is appropriate or not and have no trouble getting them to listen. Yes, even my 19 year old will change if I feel her outfit isn’t appropriate. She is learning and doesn’t want to be dressed inappropriately for special occasions. My girls, in college, already know what is appropriate for college classes, they learned that in middle and high school. I’m glad they didn’t have to wear uniforms because they would have lost this opportunity. We don’t buy designer clothes, we sacrafice plenty for me to be a stay at home mom. My older kids buy most of their own clothes and buy their own cars and pay their own insurance, and my husband and I both drive very old cars. It seems to me like uniforms are more of a cop out for parents who can’t control their kids, they need the schools to do it for them.
Sure, I love my kids and want them to be happy, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have rules to follow. They learn appropriate behavior this way.
@Sandy, you don’t like school uniforms and no amount of debate will change that. I get it. I don’t feel like I was at all “nasty” as you accuse simply because I responded to the points you made. This is called debating. I do apologize if you felt I came across as nasty simply because we disagree. Disagreement doesn’t imply animosity and I feel none toward you. You questioned the relevance of my points so I clarified. Uniforms are indeed economically sound, reduce distractions, enhance attentiveness, instill pride and are not a “cop out”. I invite you to visit a private school some time to see the reality. I applaud you in that you can tell your kids what to wear to school but you and others like you are not the reason for the debate. Many other parents can also tell their kids what to wear… sometimes it just turns out to be inappropriate for school and there’s no convincing the parent or student otherwise. Regardless, I thank you for sharing your viewpoint.
thinking of a new name, I apologize, I was not referring to you about the nastiness comment, I was referring to the comment from John specifically to me and to the way this discussion continued with name calling as you read more and more toward the end of the comments. The discussion became ridiculous and I am sorry that I didn’t clarify that. The thing I chose not to comment on in your post was the comment about being dimwitted. I was referring to you not knowing the public school’s proposal because it is much different that what your children are wearing and they do not attend public school. I wasn’t saying you couldn’t understand what a polo shirt was, just that you weren’t familiar with what the proposal was. No hard feelings here at all, and I apologize for not making that clearer. I was just saying that previously I said I was finished with the discussion in general but decided to answer you because you were not being nasty or unreasonable. I’m sorry, I should have clarified that. I completely agree about debating issues and feel that is the best way for us all to learn what others are thinking about an issue.
Mr. Seltzer, How familiar are you with the HCPS system? My concern is when you mention that teachers have 55 minutes a day with students. The block schedule is one of the major issues the BOE is going to have to face and it’s hard to understand how you would not know about it. Classes now meet for an average of 88 minutes. Dending on the school they meet between 85-90 minutes, bigger schools need to allow more time for traveling from class to class. Most classes meet every other day. A few meet every day, but those classes are finished after 2nd quarter. I think you should know that before you made then decision to run for the school board. We need someone with some basis of knowledge about HCPS and that one issue is one of the most publicized problems and probably the issue that angered parents into insisting on some form of an elected BOE.
Please educate yourself about the block schedule. One thing that doesn’t stand out is how much less instruction time the kids have per class in the 4 period day. They take 8 classes instead of 7, or 6, so they spend more time taking electives and less time in science, english, and math.
Sandy in all fairness middle schools have about 55 minutes a day with their kids.
Cdev, you are right, I didn’t even think about middle school. I guess since I only have one left in HCPS, and he is a junior, I was only thinking high school. Thanks for correcting my mistake.
I have to disagree with you about the block scheduling. There is much more “quality time” in each class with the 4-class schedule. It gives students more time in class to work on assignments and finish labs, it gives the teacher more time to cover the lessons, and it gives students more time in the evening to work on homework, especially if they get home late because of after-school activities. Studying and working on assignments for 4 classes each night gives the student more time to devote to each class than it would if they had to do homework for 8 classes. My son is also a junior this year and he has only one “elective” – marching band – and he has music to practice and memorize for that class, too. The rest of his schedule is filled with math, English, science, social studies, and foreign language classes. He loves the block schedule and would hate to see it reversed back to the 8-class day.
CCBaker, My oldest daughter liked the block schedule also, because most teachers don’t teach the whole time and they would get the last half hour of class to do their homework, losing even more instruction time. Studies show that testing scores are about even with science classes, but most other classes fall drastically. Foreign language and math classes suffer the most, because those classes require daily practice. If you have a class on a Friday, you don’t have that class again until Tuesday, so much time is spent reviewing, losing more instruction time. And the school bands and orchestras are suffering because they are hard to fit in the schedule. If a class is offered as a semester class, where you go every day for half the year, it has to be paired with another semester class. Because of this there is less flexibility in what classes they can take, band and orchestra are usually the first classes to get dropped. My daughter ended up taking independent study band in her senior year because there was no way to fit it in her schedule at the time it was offered.
Since they are supposed to be combining 2 classes into one, the theory is that they should be having twice as much homework, so the homework load should be equal. The reality is that they just don’t get as much done.
The easiest way to explain the less instruction time is simply to do the math. Under the block schedule, they have each class for 85 or so minutes. Let’s round up to 90 minutes. Since the class meets every other day, we can say that in a 2 week period they will have the class 5 times. 5 classes at 90 minutes each is 450 minutes every 2 weeks. Under the old schedule, where they had classes for 55-60 minutes, they had each class 10 times over a 2 week period of time. For the sake of arguement, let’s round down this time to 55 minutes per class for 10 class periods is 550 minutes. So every 2 weeks the students are losing a minimum of 100 minutes of instruction time, or 50 minutes per week. The students go to schol for 180 days per year which is approximately 26 weeks per year. So they are losing about 1300 minutes, or 21 and a half hours of instruction time, per class, over the period of a year. That is comparable to losing a whole month of school! And that is assuming the teachers teach for the entire 90 minutes, which most do not. We could just as easily give the students another month of summer vacation and save a lot of money in teacher salaries and operational costs.
This greatly affects AP test scores. My daughter’s AP US History class only made it up to the civil war. The rest she had to study and learn n her own in order to get a decent score on the AP test.
If our curriculum was rewritten to be taught this way, they could decide which parts to skip over or shorten so they would still finish the main parts in time. But we have a curriculum written for 55-60 minute periods being taught under the block schedule so the teachers just don’t have the time to finish all the material. In addition, each teacher is now required to teach an additional class, with that many more students and that many more papers to grade with no additional compensation. That is not good for teacher morale.
Sandy there in lies your real beef with block scheduling. Not that it is flawed but the time is being used ineffectively. I taught AP Bio at a high school on an 8 period day. The course was a 2 credit course thus occupying two back to back periods or 90 minutes. I used all 90 minutes this worked. AP US is hard to cover all the material in a normal time frame from Columbus to present. At the same school we had a very good AP US teacher he taught 45 minutes and would get to WWI in the school year and covered the rest in after school sessions as well as practice tests for those interested in taking the AP test. When we went to 2 credit courses for AP calc (AB and BC), Physics (BC and AB), Chem, Bio, US and Euro he got up to vietnam and had a few after school sessions. If used right 90 minutes can work. We did after all have a school working on a modified block schedule before the common schedule. I think given the number of required credits to graduate 6 courses is not sufficient 7 is more realistic. perhaps exploring 2 credits for AP courses might be useful.
On school uniforms…
“Myers favored a strict dress code as opposed to uniforms, and drew laughter from the audience by noting that when he was in high school, he ‘dressed to impress’ by wearing turtlenecks and vests and ‘as a result, I didn’t go on very many dates.’
“Myers said the cost of uniforms for nearly 40,000 students could be better used to support teachers and would be fiscally irresponsible for the school system at this time.”
The fact that Mr. Myers thinks that the school system would BUY students’ school uniforms indicates a lack of understanding on this issue.
Not From Here~
One of the main reasons I dislike the idea of uniforms is that it means in addition to school supplies, groceries and clothes and shoes for the family, a family must now make an extra investment in purchasing a uniform for their child. If there are two or three or more children in the public school system, then the cost of a uniform becomes more of a financial burden on the family.
Then there is the problem of what can happen during the course of the school day. During the course of the day, children can get dirty or messy or they can spill things on themselves. If a family is busy because both parents work or let’s say one works two jobs, then there is no time for the uniform to be laundered when the child comes home. So you have the additional financial burden if the family has two or three children in school and they have to purchase maybe two or even three sets of the uniform to be able to last them the week.
If we are going to have school uniforms in the Harford County Public School system, then it makes sense that the school system pays for it. If a majority of the taxpayers seem to favor school uniforms, then they should have no problem paying for it when their taxes go to the public school system.
Believe me, Not From Here, I have a very good understanding of this issue. I may not have said as much during the forum owing to the limited time I was given to answer the question, but if I had the time, that is how I would have explained my objection to school uniforms further.
If there are any questions or concerns that you have, Not From Here, then I invite you to contact me through email at Tom@MyersForHarford.com
Tom Myers
Candidate, Harford County Board of Education – District B
I question the logic of your statement: “I dislike the idea of uniforms is that it means in addition to school supplies, groceries and clothes and shoes for the family, a family must now make an extra investment in purchasing a uniform for their child.”
If uniforms are to be required, it is likely they will be simple in design, such as a pair of khaki pants and white/blue oxford or polo for boys; similar color skirt and blouse for girls. The are not lofty expenditures. In fact, the style in which kids dress for school no results in parents spending a bloody fortune on designer clothes from stores on line or the mall. It would not surprise me if such a simple uniform could be purchased in bulk by the school and offered at a discount to students. Uniforms would also do away with kids trying to outdo each other’s outfit.
Your comment about soiled clothing is absurd.
‘…During the course of the day, children can get dirty or messy or they can spill things on themselves.” Do you realize that kids do spill things on themselves now,while they are in their clothing of choice? What is your solution to that? You must not have kids if you didn’t see this one coming.
“… but if I had the time, that is how I would have explained my objection to school uniforms further.” I would hope someone running for the Board of Ed seat has the ability to articulate their positions better than you. My advice, please do not even think of quitting your day job, whatever that is. You have lost my vote!
P.S.
Sandy, what are you drinking? You really have a lot to say.
Tom Meyers –
You are a piece of work. How can you state as fact that “the cost of a uniform becomes more of a financial burden on the family” and promote the idea that “If a majority of the taxpayers seem to favor school uniforms, then they should have no problem paying for it when their taxes go to the public school system.”
First, of all a sensible school uniform program should reduce a family’s student clothing expenditures.
Second, let me get this straight you want to be elected to the school board and you think it’s prudent to suggest a wholly new county entitlement program paying for student’s school uniforms?
Do you personally pay Harford County real property taxes?
I have considered your numerous comments on The Dagger and have concluded that you unqualified to be on the school board. Please find something else to do that won’t pose a threat to students and taxpayers.
BR
“Myers favored a strict dress code as opposed to uniforms, and drew laughter from the audience by noting that when he was in high school, he ‘dressed to impress’ by wearing turtlenecks and vests”
Tom, who exactly is impressed by your dress these days? I don’t think your bright red 7-11 jumper fits very well on you.
To the poster above: Tom does not have kids (thank god). He still lives with mommy.
Hey Tom, serious question here. If elected, will you make any unruly students watch videos of your “comedy” (see link below) instead of detention?
At the risk of getting Sandy all riled up…When my kids were transferred from Bel Air Middle to Patterson Mill they complained about the loss of freedoms. Like having to have a teacher walk them to lunch and back, and limited freedom between classes. So count yourself lucky. Now that we are in private school, my kids wear uniforms. Yes, the girls skirts are costly, but for high schoolers, they can easily get 4 years from their skirts. For my son, he gets 3 pairs of khakis (for school wear) and 2 pars of jeans (for everything else). Over the long run I save money by having uniforms. Once you have been at a school, you find other families that pass uniforms on to you, and you to smaller kids. It makes the cost of uniforms a non-issue.
From what I hear, the teachers don’t like walking the kids to and from lunch either…..
A stupid rule by control freak administrators. Instead of addressing specific kids that misbehave in the hallway or cafeteria we treat everyone like little kiddies. This is an age where we should treat kids with a little more respect, grant them some more freedoms, but also teach that greater freedoms come with greater responsibility and accountability.
tired, I completely agree. And the kids who were used to having more freedom felt they were being punished without doing anything wrong. As a result, BAHS was much more chaotic because the kids were basically going from elementary school rules right to high school. My daughter at FHS had a much easier adjustment and things ran so much smoother because even though they didn’t have quite as much freedom in middle school as they did in high school they had that step in between so they knew how to handle themselves much better when they went on to high school.
The kids, like my son, who were redistricted in 8th grade had a horrible experience and still resents being in Bel Air schools. We tried explaning this to the principal at BAMS, she is not the current principal there just so we are clear, I don’t know the current principal at all, and she absolutely refused to give in on anything to make things a little better for these kids who were pulled away from everything they were used to. I can’t tell you what a negative impact this has had on my son.
justamom, why would that get me riled up? It sounds as if your kids didn’t like the lost of freedom either. I think we are in agreement. Getting hand me downs is a great cost saver, we do that with non uniform clothes as well. I went 3 years without buying my son hardly any clothes because my neighbor gave me all of her son’s outgrown clothes. Then all of a sudden my son grew like crazy and is 6ft tall at 16. Now we don’t get anymore hand me downs.
This is posted to the District B school board race because some students (and their voting parents) attending Fallston area schools live in District A and they should be fulling informed about the candidates they will choose to represent them on the school board.
Classless act.
This morning I was roadside waving on Rt. 40 just West of Joppa Farm Road. A place frequented by several candidates during the course of the campaign season. There is a gentlemen’s agreement of sorts that opposing candidates will not horn in on a location where one candidate has already set up.
Today State Senate candidate Rovall Washington pulled to the side of the road some 30+ yards in front of and in clear view of my location and brought out a large Jansen Robinson sign (a school board opponent) and one for himself. Moments later Mr. Robinson arrived with others and began to wave.
Such actions demonstrate a lack of common courtesy and speaks to the character of the individuals involved. This behavior when considered along side Mr. Robinson’s questionable conduct at the recent candidate’s forum held at Joppatowne HS should raise questions about his fitness to serve in public office. If Mr. Robinson stoops to low tactics on such little things what kind of integrity can we expect of him on issues of major importance.
I have repeatedly stated that voters need to do their own homework. Look beyond the resume and at what the candidates actually do. Actions speak louder than words and Mr. Robinson’s recent actions speak volumes about him as an individual. Similar questions surround Mr. Washington. Voters also need to carefully observe what current officeholders who associate themselves with candidates of this nature.
Almost everyone I talk to expresses their disappointment with dirty politics and the get ahead at all costs attitude that seems to permeate much of the political landscape. This appears to be more of the same. In keeping with Mr. Robinson’s favorite quote, “If we always do what we have always done we will always get what we have always gotten.” I absolutely agree. So under the circumstances why would anyone vote for Mr. Robinson?
Bob Frisch
Board of Education candidate
District A (Edgewood, Joppatowne, Joppa)
Mr. Frisch –
It’s really a shame when people feel the need to upstage others; I usually find it’s because they are insecure. And you’re right – actions do speak louder than words. But your posting on the District B article raises a question. Do we place a vote for all three districts or just the district in which we live? The Harford County school districts are quite lopsided, with Abingdon attending Edgewood, some of Edgewood going to Joppa, parts of Joppa traveling to Fallston, etc. Since the candidates running in District B are representing Fallston and Abingdon, and since most of Abingdon goes to Edgewood, who are we really voting for? Shouldn’t we pick the best candidate from District A since that is where our children attend school? Will the candidates elected to the BOE vote on issues regarding HCPS as a whole, or will they vote in favor of the schools in their individual districts? Why would someone running for District B be concerned about schools in Edgewood when it’s not in their district, but accordingly, how can those of us who live in Abingdon be certain the candidate we chose will represent the schools our children attend?
CCBaker~
As a candidate running in District B, part of which includes the Constant Friendship and Box Hill neighborhoods in Abingdon, I have had discussions with many parents who are wondering why their children are going to schools in Edgewood when Bel Air and Patterson Mill are closer. They are hearing that redistricting is coming up in the next couple of years, so they are interested in making sure that their children go to schools that are closer to where they live and they want someone who represents their interests on the Board who is willing to listen to their concerns and be accountable for the decisions that get made.
I am aware that the decisions I make will not only affect my district, but also the entire county and I will keep that in mind whenever I make a decision as a member of the Board of Education. Of course, I always welcome public input and will continue to do so as your representative on the Board.
That being said, residents of District B will only get to vote for their District B Board of Education representative and it is the same in Districts A and D. If you live in District B, CCBaker, I look forward to your vote on September 14.
Tom Myers
Candidate, Harford County Board of Education – District B
Tom@MyersForHarford.com
CCBaker, I have done a lot of research into this and it is because Edgewood High school is way under capacity. And the new school has, if my memory is correct, approximately 400 more seats than the old building. They need someone to fill those seats. I’m betting that many Patterson Mill families will find themselves redistricted to EHS once the building is complete. They can’t open a school at 50% of capacity, they are supposed to consider closing a school if it is under 65% of capacity. Since those students are already in Edgewood schools, they aren’t going to move them to Patterson Mill just to move them back to Edgewood. I have no proof of that, but it’s the only thing that makes sense. It is also a good example of why we need a majority elected school board. I have asked this question to many school board members and have never gotten an answer.
My son went to Fallson Middle and would have gone to Fallston High, but was redistricted in 8th grade. It takes twice as long to get to Bel Air, through much traffic and many major intersections and quite a few traffic lights. Going to Fallston there were no major intersections and no traffic lights, making the bus drive much safer. To refill the seats of the kids that left, they redistricted kids who went to Homestead/Wakefield to Fallston Middle. I would assume those kids would have been happier going to BAMS with the majority of their friends. Common sense seems to make no difference to our current school board. Let’s hope that elections will change that!
Sandy remember the IB program will occupy some of those seats. I believe the plan was to have 100 kids per class and they have only one class. Being a magnet program those kids can come form anywhere. Additionally Aberdeen is OVER capacity you can shift some of the southern segment of ABerdeen to Edgewood.
Cdev, the IB will occupy some seats. They only have 50 students per class for a total of 200 students. That and the overflow they can shift from Aberdeen isn’t going to cover enough seats to come close to bringing the new Edgewood High School to a reasonable enrollment. I will be SHOCKED if they don’t move kids out of Patterson Mill, especially since that school is over capacity. Everything they have done so far points to moving Patterson Mill, especially the fact that they over crowded that school on purpose. They had no reason to, just look at the enrollment at FMS and FHS.
Hey Tom, why don’t you respond to your critics above? You always run from confrontation.
Maybe because you engaged in personal attacks on Tom rather than have a meaningful discussion about the issues. Grow up.
CCBaker,
I posted on this article because the politically drawn boundaries of County Council districts do not mirror specific school attendance boundaries. There are people living in my district (Edgewood, Joppatowne, Joppa) that attend Fallston area schools as well as others attending schools in Council District F. I believe everyone living in District A should know the character of the candidates running on election even if their children attend schools outside of the district.
Tom has explained it well, even though elected in a specific district we will cast votes affecting the entire school system. I have been trying to impress upon everyone that they have a vested interest in whoever is elected in each district (even if you cannot vote for them) because they will have a direct impact on the education of your children. As such they should be paying attention to all the school board races.
I agree, do your homework before voting. A lot is discussion about uniforms, maybe schools should start enforcing the dress code. There are bigger issues on the table than what the kids are wearing.
I found this article through much persistance and interest in knowing candidates positions but knew nothing about the PTA forum. I would have been there if I had known. I’ll bet I’m not alone. I discovered The Dagger by accident. Thanks for being there. Thought Mr Seltzer’s responses were great, all had interesting views. Mr Seltzer-I haven’t seen one sign-how come?
Probably because he lost the primary and is not running anymore!
I see, I’m way behind. Work work work. Too bad the PTA and School Board info is not better disseminated. Guess I’ll sit this one out. We’ll probably wind up with a pro O Mally-Teacher’s Union lap-dog anyway. Could this be the reason for the lack of dissemnation. SHHHH-don’t tell everybody, they might actually show up.