The forecast for Tuesday in Bel Air calls for sunny skies, a high of 86 degrees, and a near-100 percent likelihood of a serious tax revolt.
The Harford County Council is holding a public hearing on the tax assessment cap Tuesday night and a half-dozen tax-reducing, tax-repealing, tax-revolting groups have already mobilized their supporters to show up with signs in hand and revolution in mind.
For those keeping track, the Marylanders for Fair Property Taxation, Taxed Enough Already (TEA) Party, Americans for Prosperity, Campaign for Liberty, and the Institute on the Constitution are each expected to have a significant presence and following at Tuesday’s public hearing.
The tax assessment cap is a complicated issue, so I’ll let those who eat, sleep, and breathe tax revolution tell you what it’s all about.
Here is the call to action from the Marylanders for Fair Property Taxation:
Marylanders for Fair Property Taxation
E-mail mdfairtax@juno.com www.marylandersforfairpropertytaxation.comHearing Notice July 14, 2009 7:00 PM
Harford County Council Chambers
212 Bond Street Bel Air, MarylandOn July 14, 2009 the Harford County Council will hold a public hearing on the lowering of the property tax assessment cap from 9% to 5%. This dramatic decrease will save most homeowner taxpayers many property tax dollars. It is an issue our coalition members and we fought hard to achieve. The County Council
met with us, looked us in the eye, stated what they would do for the taxpayers AND DID IT?? To assure passage of this bill we need to get behind President Boniface, Councilmen McMahan and Shodes who strongly supported this measure.We need to fill the 259 seat Council Chambers as a symbol of our support even to the point of having to turn people away. We cannot let the naysayers point to us as only being “a small group of dissidents” as one Councilmember describes our activities. We need to line the streets before the hearing starting at 6:00 PM as we have in the past. Bring your signs, show your colors, and don’t be
disappointed if you cannot gain admittance or speak during the session. THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO SHOW NUMBERS AND SOLIDARITY??This is just the beginning of the tax revolt. We must keep up the pressure to let our elected officials know that we are Taxed Enough Already (TEA). Our message continues to be “fair property taxation”. That we can understand and support when our elected officials act with fiscal responsibility and accountability.
Our next efforts will be to achieve changes to the State property
assessment and appeals processes that produce consistent, fair, equitable, uniform, assessments commensurate with current property market values. We will be working with our legislators to accomplish these goals in the 2010 legislative session. JOIN WITH US?? Send us your email address to keep informed.Remember Nothing Happens Unless We Make It Happen??
See you on July 14th Roy Whiteley
Here is the battlecry from the TEA Party organizers:
My Fellow Patriots,
Today I am calling on you for more action! You have attended previous Tea Party rally’s (or at least heard of them) where we citizens have all stood up and complained about the way that our local, state, and federal governments have been usurping the rights of the people. Now that we have gotten all riled up about, let’s take a stand and show them what we are made of!
On Tuesday July 16, 2009 at 6:00, join me and the rest of the Harford Countians who have had enough at the Council Chambers in downtown Bel Air. The address is 212 S Bond Street. This is the black building across the street from Looney’s pub and our Independence Day Tea Party!
The issue on Tuesday is the Homestead Tax credit. Currently, your taxes in Harford County increase 9% per year, doubling in 8 years. At the Council meeting Tuesday night, the County Council is set to vote on an amendment that will lower this rate to 5%, so your annual property taxes will not be able to increase more than 5% a year. We need to get the message across to the Council that this is a great step in the right direction, and we support the decision to reduce the burden of taxes on the hard-working citizens of Harford County. This amendment may save $30 Million next year! I wrote a post on our website about the property taxes in Maryland at the following link, check it out if you are interested: http://www.harfordpropertytaxrevolt.com/1/post/2009/07/homestead-tax-credit-amendment-and-july-14.html
So join us at 6:00PM on Tuesday with a sign to wave. My sign is going to be about Liberty and Responsible government. A lot of people have been asking me recently about the Tea Party, thinking that it is about tea and crumpets. (Ugh) Your sign will be very visible by passing cars and each other, so think hard about it! Maybe your sign can say “Taxed Enough Already”. For more ideas, visit this web site:
WHAT: Rally to Support the decision to lower our future taxes!
WHERE: County Council Chambers 212 S Bond Street
WHEN: This Tuesday, July 14, 2009 at 6:00PM, public comment at 7:00PM
WHY: Because 9% annual tax increases are ridiculous, and we aren’t going to take it any more!
WHO: EVERYBODY! Tell your friends and neighbors. This is a family friend event, so all are welcome!Tell the County Council that you support their decision to cut taxes with an email or a phone call. An easy form to send them a message can be found here: http://www.harfordpropertytaxrevolt.com/contact-county-elected-officials.html
I will see you on Tuesday. There will be lots of good local Liberty-minded groups present and I hope you will seek more information about them. They include Americans for Prosperity, Campaign for Liberty, and The Institute on the Constitution. Click each name for more information.
Thank you for all of the excitement about the Tea Parties and fairer taxes! Let’s take it back!
Patrick McGrady
Good points everyone! I think this is a good segue for me to tell everybody to come out and support the County Council as they vote on the Homestead Tax Credit Amendment on Tuesday, July 14. Starting at 6PM, we will be out in force to support this!
Currently, your real estate taxes increase ~9% per year, limited by this credit. At this rate, the taxes you pay double every 8 years. (Do the math, it’s accurate. Or better yet, dig up your tax bills from 2000). The Council has an amendment before them that will limit that to 5% per year. Tell them that we support this!
You can send a message to all of them from the Harford Property Tax Revolt web site at the following link: http://www.harfordpropertytaxrevolt.com/contact-county-elected-officials.html
If you would like some more information about the convoluted MD tax system, check out the “blogs” section on that website. I recently wrote a brief explanation of the process of real property taxation.
There will be hundreds of people waving signs and rallying in support of this issue. Hurray for fairer taxes!
Maybe Brian will give us a new page to discuss this on? Pretty please?
So you all won’t be happy until the libraries have to close and more county employees are laid off. I hope you don’t count on any county services…
No libraries closed and decreasing the tax burden on taxpayers will force government to be more efficient.
Dear Sick of TEA,
They can’t run the county on a 5% increase each year? Don’t know about you, but my assessment is way more than 5% per year. This will save me significant $$’s yet they are still getting 5% more than this year. Doubt my pay rate will rise that much nor will I see a decrease in BGE, groceries or the 10% increase in taxes to the town of Bel Air and the state portion of the property tax bill. You are always free to add more to your bill if you want to.
Your pay rate might increase by 5% if you worked for the County of Harford.
Bill, in case you missed the memo no one working for Harford County got a raise.
DW: You speak so smugly but I guess that’s because you got your 16% raise 2 years ago as a Harford County Deputy.
Katelyn:
Please see DW’s comment. They are not gettng a 5% raise. They had to turn back in 5% of thier operating budget along with the five furlough days! Not as peachy as the public thinks things are by any means.
Bill effectivley Harford County employees got a pay cut!
Blue, all that pay increase did was make the Sheriff’s Office pay scale equitable to to nearby agencies. Prior to that increase Harford County Sheriff’s Deputies were some of the lowest paid in the state. I explained what that meant to the citizens of Harford County iin another post. Basically it meant that instead of losing good officers (who Harford County spent tens of thousands of dollars or more to train each one) to other agencies, we’re keeping those good officers and getting good officers wanting to transfer here from other agencies (which then saves Harford County tens of thousands of dollars per transfer in basic training expenses plus whatever other specialized training those officers had received from their old agencies.)
I’m not going to rehash old arguments with you since, as I said on another blog, I’m obviously not going to convince you to change your mind since you evidently seem to think that anyone who works for the government should do it out of the goodness of their heart.
Sick of TEA,
I’m not saying the employees got a 5% raise. The property tax revenue will still rise by 5% next year. What the powers that be will do with the extra dollars is up to them. There are plenty of laid-off workers in the private sector who would have taken a pay cut and/or furlough days. I’m just saying that no one is forcing anyone to be on the government payroll. If it’s so bad, change jobs.
Sick of TEA:
My household is also experiencing a layoff as are several people in my neighborhood. Things are scary and it is difficult to stomach hearing about how the county employees (and school system personnel) cry about their pay raise or lack thereof. Do you really believe it was necessary to close a library or was it grandstanding? How many administrative positions have been added since David Craig has been in office? How many Public Relations people does he have? Does Harford County really need a Director of Tourism or Agriculture? I guess these are the types of questions to ask in the next election.
Can someone explain whether this 5%/9% is a cap on the most property taxes “could be raised” or is it amandatoryincrease each year?
County employees did not get raises, but furloughts and some layoffs. In the mean time your $5.00 per month savings buys you 3 coffees at WAWA. The county balanced the budget on the back of county employees. It is about time for us to be more active at the same council meetings. See if our vote counts too, or not.
I love how county employees are always targets during recessions, portrayed as greedy and unsympathetic to the plights of others, and scoffed at during good ecenomic times. County employees make significantly less than their peers in the private sector, but in return they get job security. They all provide essential services that we would bemoan if they weren’t there. I’m all for efficient government, but don’t make the mistake of blaming the county employees. Do you want the type of police that you would get if you pay the lowest wage? How about teachers who find they could make more in the private sector or in other counties or states?
Elaine & Katelyn,
Hopefully our Harford County Citizens & Taxpayers are watching how our elected Politicians and “some” of our Government Employees (Services & Administration, Eduction, and Sheriff”s Office) are reacting to life in the Real World.
It is amazing that these Elected Officials and Government Employees feel “entitled” to 9% property tax increases year after year. Please think about that for a minute – how can these people be reasonable at all with that kind of thought process – continual 9% increases?
It is amazing how the Leadership in Government failed to timely plan for this econmic downturn. This storm didn’t just appear – overextended state and local governments were reported in the WSJ for the past two years – hint hint David Craig – put down the USA Today, DC Post, NY Times, and Balto Sun.
It is clear that there are two general trains of thought when it comes to Government Spending. People like CDEV & DW have made their positions clear.
Thankfully, I believe most Harford County Residents share the second view. The view of Thomas Jefferson, that government shouldn’t be any different than ordinary citizens. Government should live within its means and only exist to serve us not the other way around.
The Harford County Operating Budget increased from $420,000,000 in 2005 to $610,000,000+ in 2009, a 45 % increase. The demographics of the County don’t remotely support such drastic increases.
Thank goodness, that the Harford County citizens as a group have finally taken notice and better yet are finally taking action.
To ALL;
Taxpayers & Government Reformers;
Please be aware that at previous COUNTY COUNCIL meetings the following has occurred.
Certain Government Department heads Strongly encouraged their employees to attend the Council meetings to protect their own budgets.
Objectives in my opinion of this tactic were to;
Take up the seats in the Council chambers so that the “Taxpayers” could not attend the meetings. Once the seats are filled no one else is allowed to enter.
Voice support for their own budgets and salaries while precluding the thoughts of Taxpayers.
Intimidate whether intended or not. Numerous Sheriff’s deputies in unform were on hand before the meeting started – they were outside the Council Chambers and in the lobby of Chambers. In addition, the Sheriff’s Union – I suppose with Jesse Bane’s support were strongly encouraged to attend the meeting to fill up the Chambers.
Also – the County Employees were handing out “Support the Budget” buttons. They simply turned away when asked if the Taxpayers paid for the buttons.
Taxpayers – Please arrive early Tuesday to make sure your voice is heard!
Garbage Mike. The median income of a county employee is higher than a private sector worker in this county. With benefits and a pension and it turns into a sweet deal. Firing a government worker, no matter how worthless, is near impossible too.
All of that aside, the money is gone. It was wasted when times were good and is no longer here when we need it. No matter the reason, cuts have to be made. No more gauranteed raises. No more all encompassing health benefits.
If they don’t like it, they can quit. I suspect the good ones do after a few years of seeing the incompotence from the inside. And you won’t get any simpathy from people who deal in the ‘real world’ anytime soon.
ted r.
I agree with you.
However, as I’ve discovered, you are going to have a hard time convincing Government workers that unlimited leave, job security, lack of accountability, and clock watching are anything but normal. Most haven’t experienced the real world and simply don’t know any better.
My beef isn’t with the employees – it with our ball-less elected leaders that simply allowed this to happen.
Many folks in the Route 40 corridor have just paid the first 9% increase of their three year (2009-2011) assessment. That means their tax bill will reflect another tax increase in 2010 of 9% and 2011 of 9%. They are paying taxes on increased assessments at a time when property values are actually declining. To me this basically represents legalized stealing.
When the assessment increases 9% a year, as it has done in the Route 40 corridor every year since at least 2006, it doubles the actual tax you pay every 8 years. Under the proposed legislation your bill would only double every 14 years.
Let’s say you buy a home when you are 24 years old and live to be eighty. Under the present cap your property taxes would double 7 times, the 56 years you live in the house. Under the proposed legislation it would only double 4 times. Still way too much, but at least this bill is a very positive step in the right direction.
As to rocco’s comments, I did not know that a government job was a form of welfare. We all just need to give $5 an month, only 17 cents a day, to feed a hungry government employee. Maybe you should enlist Sally Struthers to take up the cause.
Ted R points out that it is hard to get rid of a government employee. That is pretty much true in any level from the municipal to the federal. We used to say that government employees were a lot like the cannons on the White House lawn; nobody knew how they got there, nobody knew how to make them work and you damn sure couldn’t fire them.
For those who think that the school system hasn’t become completely top heavy (but those employees are now working in the schools), here is a sampling of the Educational Specifications that we supposed to be for Schuck’s Road Elementary. I didn’t include the part that talked about the 2 classrooms they were going to build for PREKINDERGARTEN!! Our kids are going to school longer and for more years but according to information from all of the colleges, they are getting worse in math. Quality over quantity perhaps? And we are supposed to just hand the money over to the school system without asking questions. They need to build more schools but yet the schools that are being built space is being utilized within the school building for administratiion and now prekindgarten.
Teacher Mentor’s Office
a. Function: A full time professional that works with all the teachers providing guidance and professional mentoring.
Instructional Facilitator Office
a.Function: The Instructional Facilitator Office is the primary workspace for the Instructional Facilitator. Since the Facilitator executes responsibilities that are primarily administrative in nature, the area must be sufficiently large to accommodate a full-sized worktable in addition to routine office furniture.
I agree wholeheartedly with Braveheart and Mr. Yensan. Mr. Yensan’s colorful descriptor is sad but true. DW, I know you probably think I’m picking on you, but here goes. I know that a pay study was done 2 or 3 years ago (yet another pay study paid for by Ha Co taxpayers). I also know that when these pay studies are done fairly, the county for whom the study is being done is usually compared to counties similar in population, income and physical size. Usually Harford County is compared with Carroll Co, but in this instance it couldn’t be done. I know for a fact, and I will research this to back up what I am saying, Harford County’s law enforcement officers pay scale was compared to much larger and richer counties, that is, Baltimore County, Prince George’s County, Anne Arundel County and 2 or 3 others. Of course your pay is going to be lower. I wonder if you compared your salaries to the deputies in Charles County, Kent County, Cecil County, etc. if you’d give back 16% of your salary when it was found that yours was much higher. Our county government is loaded with spin doctors and they are going to find out in 2010 that we are not as stupid as they think.
While we are on the topic of job cuts:
Digging through the “34” job “cuts” that were implemented to balance the budget it becomes clear that at least half of them were temporary non-standard positions and 9 of them were 2 hour per day trail monitors for the Ma-Pa trail.
Those 9 jobs were paid for by a 500 dollar donation from the MaPa trail foundation. The language of job cuts was disingenuous at best and lying at worst.
They are welcome cuts but intended to make those of us who wish for responsible government look bad. It didn’t work.
Tues. night, the council will vote to reduce the amount of percentage of increase allowed, not the rate of increase. The budget will still be 5% higher than this year, if the county exec. chooses not to remain w/n constant yield. So, if you expect not to have your prop. tax raised again next year, then you are mistaken. The rate of increase will be at 5% for indi. home owners. This rate does not affect business owners who still pay 2.5% plus the rate of prop. tax, , the multiple prop. owners and will still be higher than surrounding counties, ie Balt. County and Cecil County. I am proud to be a part of the tax revolt, I do think that the county govt. needs to address it’s expenses. I re-read an article about the budget and Craig’s cuts that is posted here on the Dagger from Oct. 08, and according to it, the parks and rec program provides food for the after school programs…why? Why are the parents not providing food for their children? Why aren’t the parks and rec participants cleaning up after themselves? The budget that was presented stated that the parks and rec program provided custodial staff for the schools. When I was in scouts, we were always supposed to leave the campsite cleaner than we found it, why aren’t the kids expected to clean up after themselves? I will be at Tues. night’s meeting. Hope to see a lot of you all too!
Braveheart that period also matched a 122% spike in energy costs!
TJ do you believe my wife, a county employee is not a taxpayer? If so then she wants a refund of all that tax money we have paid from her salary.
Tiny Tax payer when a school is open someone has to be in the building from the school. That person is a custodian. Schools are not regularly open at 8 PM on week days and on saturdays and sundays. So……they have to pay for a custodian to work those hours. The job of the custodian is not neccessarily to clean up but to monitor the building, open up and lock up. Had you been to a P&R event before you might notice this!
Ted R.
All paid employees of the county are not on welfare. Most jobs are needed to perform a function of govt. Your $5.00 savings did not save anything worthwhile. The county spends $200 mil on capital projects. Building schools without state funding, because we have too much money that we don’t need state funds to pay their fair share. These are the decisions that the taxpayer needs to pay attention because they take up a significant portion of the budget.
The talk about the county employees is bothersome, because you pick on the working stiffs, but not the backroom deals from procurement and vehicle fleet that spent hundred’s of thou of $$ at once to replace vehicles that were in good shape. I have worked in private industry and govt. The pay is highter for private and bonuses and perks that you just don’t get in govt. Benefits tend to be better for govt, but they don’t put food on the table, that’s why I left county employment.
You brought up the 3 cups of coffee as if the tax break is causing all the budget problems. It is overspending and lavish benefits and retirement that are a big part of the problem.
The back room deals are another problem that needs to be dealt with. All capital expenses should be frozen until things improve. The decisions to replace vehicles and equipment were probably pushed for by those working stiffs as well as the higher ups.
As to the function of government, a lot of services should be in the hands of the private sector. The government has stuck it’s nose into to many things in this county and we need to get them out. There would be private solutions that would work better than an inefficient and wasteful government agency.
Rocco and Cdev – The Harford County tax revenue has increased year after year at an artificial rate because the false appreciation in real estate. Those chickens have come home to roost. Not to mention that Harford County is NOT on a Constant Yield protecting taxpayers from unwarranted increases.
Harford County cannot continue growing its government bureaucracy and have the county be competitive. This is not about hurting government employees it is however about right-sizing manpower, services and expenses.
We taxpayers want a better value for our tax money and since the county is the single-service provider with a monopoly we can only do the prudent thing…starve the beast into submission to taxpayers and demand fiscal responsiblity.
Joe
Rocco2009: Why is the job of the state to build schools for Harford County? Why should my tax dollars go to Annapolis only to come back to build our schools? Actually, my state tax dollars go to many other counties for schools. Everyone talks about Co. employees, how many more HCPS employees are there in the last 5 years, when enrollment has been declining? You TEA baggers should be protesting on Hickory Ave too!
Cdev
How many times are we going to do the energy dance….
Funny thing when my friends and family had to pay more for fuel and energy. They had to cut back on family vacations, dining out, etc…
There are no cut backs in Government – in addition once the energy prices decline which they have – the Government certainly doesn’t spend less….
Your arguments are worse than a bad broken record….. Good grief…
I would be willing to bet your friends and family got pay raises too?
Look energy isn’t the whole thing but a good protion and to expect that the budget not increase for 5 years is rediculious especially when the federal govt went on 2 money printing sprees under Bush and one under Obama during that time frame. Which results in a devalued dollar!
ted r
The working stiffs do their job, they don’t make policy decisions, just carry out elected officials wishes and mandates. Ie, Our planners do the prudent planning and then an appointed official and a paid off council amends laws that take the intent of the plan and twist it to their constituency’s desires.
In fact, in many instances “the working stiffs” do look out for the taxpayer’s because they pay taxes too, but instead of putting the blame on the elected officials you guys chose to blame the “stiffs” for it.
I think you need to really look at the budget and see where does the money go, and is it prudent to spend it on some things or not. To just plainly blame the “stiffs” that clean the building, and do the grunt work is just silly.
The county executive’s office and the councils office’s budgets have tripled in the past 3 years. The don’t contribute much to providing basic services, but you choose to blame the people hired to fill those jobs, instead the elected officials that proposed and approved those budgets.
I blame them all. The politicians are a big part of the problem and in the next election we will have to take care of that. The permenant government employees are also a problem and we should clean them out too.
As to the working stiffs, take a drive to the Wawa at the intersection of Business Rt 1 and the Hickory Bypass around 8 am any weekday, non government holiday, morning. There is usually a parking lot full of county vehicles. And the ‘stiffs’ in safety colors are leaning up against the wall watching the world go by.
Or go to the landfill and watch the parade of employees driving around, talking, two or three to a truck, looking for nothing to do. For every person working there seems to be two more wandering.
Wasn’t it just 2 years ago that David Craig and the county council passed a $1 Billion budget? That is Billion with a “B” folks. Then last year Craig AND the council gave most county employees an effective 9% increase. Whatever the council and executive do now does not excuse rampant overspending that was allowed to seep into the budget: operating and capital. What these folks seem to ignore is that capital projects lead to increases in the operating budget. Facilites operating costs, staffing, maintenance, etc. are built into future operating budgets after projects are completed. They also ignore the fact that pay increases cause next year’s “baseline” to be increased.
I do agree with the comment about the WSJ publishing info. about insolvent or overextended state and local governments. Craig and the council should have known better.
Boniface and the others on the council can try to take the fiscal responsibility banner into 2010, but the reality is that most of them voted for budgets that got us into this mess. There was a time in Harford County (1999) that our teachers and deputies were among the lowest paid in the state. In fact teachers were 23 out of 24 jurisdictions in the state. We also had about 60% of the counties workforce leaving the county for work. Thankfully that number is now between 30-40%. We rapidly moved from a bedroom community to an employment center. That number is going to be much much smaller in about 10 more years. At the same time, housing and property values in general have finally risen to be comparable with the other Baltimore Metro counties. These changes are infusing millions of tax dollars into the county government. Ideally this will allow each individual tax payer to pay less of a percentage to the county. On the other hand (and what has been happening to date) if the tax rates are not lowered, everyone will pay more AND the county will have a windfall from these changing demographics.
As Ronald Reagan once said: “Government does not tax to get the money it needs; government always finds a need for the money it gets.” With all of these Republicans in office , one would think that taxes would be significantly scaled back. I think what happens is they get in office and are lobbied so hard by friends of the library, parks and rec., school system, deputies, vol. fire companies, employees unions, etc. that they quickly get into the miniutiae of operating a government and forget the big picture. This doesn’t make them bad people. What we need to do is get people in office who will keep the big picture in mind. All of the good things that local government does are funded by taxpayers. No one is against libriaries or education, but those programs only exist because of tax dollars.
I hope our new leaders elected in 2010 will remember that. Now I have been around the block a few times. I have seen about 50 county budgets, before we even had a council and executive. I predict that we will have record turnover. I truly believe that over 50% of all imcumbents will be defeated, either in the primary or general election. I think you may also see some independent candidates elected to office. Wouldn’t that be a hoot?
I like this unfaithful fella. You sound like you would be a good candidate for a local muni office or county council seat. Want to run for the town of Aberdeen?
I like that you understand that government thirst for more isn’t a NEED, it is a desire.
Joe@ 30.
I like the ‘starve the beast’ metaphor. I just read that in the WSJ and was thinkin about posting something to that effect.
Ted r. I was’nt going to say anything. but in your defense. There seem’s to be a lot of ” Stiff’s” standing a round.
Okay, folks – let’s do a reality check. We have needs and wants. The key is balance. It’s wonderful everyone is trying to become more astute in trying to understand how budgets work (or not). The key is staying informed and letting your elected officials know your “needs and wants”. In a civilized and reasonable manner, we can all write, call or even talk in person to our county council representatives, legislators in Annapolis, and Congress in DC. No need to display unprofessional or inappropriate behavior or argue persistently with an unruly crowd. Thus the importance of BLOGGING- this new age form of “debate” has hopefully become an important aspect of our democracy. Sharing feelings about how and why we need/want change is critical.
So here’s my take on this situation: Costs are going up – utilities, food, gas, etc. This will not change (any may even get worse). It affects local, state, and federal “government” as well as taxpaying citizens. If we move too far towards trying to decrease costs (i.e. taxes), we can end up like California. If we move too far towards cutting public services (wants/needs), we may not like what we get. Harford County is home to many lovely, prosperous and well-maintained communities compared to many other counties and areas around the U.S. No – it’s not perfect, and neither is our state or country — but ,it’s a QUALITY OF LIFE that many of us value, appreciate and wish to maintain.
Did anyone get bent out of shape when their previous tax assessments were valued LOWER than the prevailing and inflated sale prices of neighboring houses a few years back (did anyone try to pay more to prove that their house was worth more??!!) Think about it: this country is in a MAJOR recession. Our soldiers are involved in two very serious WARS. HEALTH CARE costs are staggering. And our dependence on foreign oil is taking us down a very dangerous path. When I see and hear various factions acting like they simply CANNOT AFFORD to pay their taxes, I wonder how they would have ever survived making any sacrifices back during WWI or WWII. So your house is now assessed higher and you’re complaining your taxes are higher. EVERYTHING costs MORE!! The key is to get involved in an intelligent and respectful manner and be part of HELPING to IMPROVE the balance needed regarding cost of government and cost to citizens. Rallying with signs and yelling into bullhorns harkens back to days of unruly mobs – not something most people care to be involved in.
Let’s all become really good citizens and do it the proper way – take time to LEARN about your government, the budget, and your elected officials. Once you understand, then work together to improve things. But please quit complaining. We all need to make sacrifices — even if it means spending time to contemplate and explain your wants and needs to those who are elected. Then, as GOOD citizens, do your part when it’s time to campaign, vote, or speak up during public hearings. That means a whole lot more than wasting time with a rowdy crowd of complainers.
Elsie,
You had me until the second paragraph. Can you please tell me how you think California goes too far toward cutting taxes?
I will not stop holding my sign and yelling into a bullhorn. I have the right to do so because of the sacrifices that ancestors made in WWI and WWII. And I would argue that this is an intelligent and respectful manner.
The problem is that until this movement, people complained to their spouses and coworkers. Now they are finding out that more people are concerned about the same things and they are becoming active.
I want to pay my taxes. I really do. I want my aunt Ruth to be able to afford living in her home in Bel Air. And it is my privilege and god-given ( and constitutionally defended) right to be the squeaky wheel that gets the tax cut.
Elsie –
You have a very curious yet inaccurate position on what constitutes citizen involvement in government and politics. If our founding fathers had taken your advice we would likely be paying out taxes in British Pounds and not U.S. Dollars.
I take exception to your disgust of regular folks that are demonstrating at public hearings and attending those hearings. These folks that you seem despise are patriots taking to the streets and petitioning their representatives to change the status quo of higher and higher property taxes and bigger and bigger government.
How is it that you can object to people involving themselves in the governmental and political process?
Are these demonstrations not constitutionally protected and encouraged?
Joe
Joe and Patrick
While I know you hold no respect for what I will say. I believe Elise’s frustration like mine and others is that some people chose to get involved at 0 hour instead of taking the time to attend the public hearings on the budget.
Some of those people where like the lady who showed up at the council meeting expecting to speak on the budget but could not be bothered to go to the public hearings.
Elise is saying that is the responsible and prudent thing to have done; if I understand her correctly.
I agree with the idea of needs and wants too but that idea is very subjective. As I stated earlier, do we need office space in new schools for MORE administrators who aren’t working with children? I say definitely not but you will have the school system argue it is necessary even though those positions didn’t exist 10 years ago. The status quo has a strange way of becoming a “need” when it is really a “want.” What has happened over the years is that positions have become entrenched throughout government and governmental agencies. I ask the question again how many Public Relations positions does the County Executive need or even HCPS. I equate what they are doing to my household keeping Premium Cable Channels and gym memberships and not having enough money to pay BGE or my mortgage.
It really is time to stop the train wreck. News this week that the national debt would cost each person in this country $37,000 to repay. Scary thought…
Cdev,
I see your frustration with the issue and I share it. There were very, very few people at the budget hearings. I think people have just been asleep at the wheel.
Also, please don’t assume that I don’t respect you. I DO respect your opinion and your ability to put your thoughts into words. Just because I disagree does not mean that I write you off as an idiot or your points as invalid.
My concern is that Elsie seems to want to stifle complaints just as they are becoming effective. I believe that while the speech would have been more effective earlier in the process it is very valuable even at this stage. If this is what it takes to engage people, then so be it.
Cdev,
We’re here now and paying attention. And we are not going anywhere.
Let’s be very careful about the needs and wants discussion lest we get caught in a trap.
I’ll remind folks of a very famous quote –
“From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs”. K.M.
We need less government, less bureaucracy, less regulation, individual responsibility and increased competition from a robust private sector. We need to liberate ourselves from government servitude and dependency.
Another quote to consider –
“A government is the most dangerous threat to man’s rights” A.R.
Joe
As someone with gray hair who has been writing to her representatives, federal, state and local for many years on tax issues, I say better late than never. I am thrilled that people are finally waking up to government shenanigans regarding taxation. Granted, the public hearings were the place to be (and very poorly attended, I might add), but better late than not at all. Now it will be interesting to see if the interest holds through the next budget and election cycles. The school budget, the holy grail, should be the next target. It eats up the majority of the tax dollars with questionable value for the money. Here’s hoping an elected school board will help there.
I will say that it is good people pay attention but what should have happened was that the budget with it’s cuts passed and we used this as a very large jumping off point to effectively plan meaningful cuts for the next budget. In fact invite some people to the table and hold focus groups to discuss our real needs so that uneeded services can really be cut instead of a knee jerk reaction, name calling, please note I have never used the term “Teabaggers” and never will.
Katelynn the “holy grail” as you put it is immune from cuts. This is due to the maintence of effort clause. They 5% they gave back last year could not be required. Harford ranks 22nd in per pupil spending only ahead of Kent and Caroline counties! The only way to reduce the budget is to get a waiver from the state (not sure which deppartment). 13 counties of varying sizes requested them this year and they all got denied. The operating budget must stay consistent on a per pupil basis from the previous year as determined by enrollment on October 1.
Patrick I am glad we can civily disagee about things I will say that I agree with you on the point govt. is too big and can be scaled back but it needs to be done rationally. One thing that we have in MD which is good is the balanced Budget Requirement. This is a big reason CA is in so much trouble handing out IOU’s and closing state govt. on the 2nd,3rd and 4th friday of the month.
Amen brother. Cdev, I agree. What has happened over the last few months will look like a cake walk compared to what is coming down the pike.
Cdev,
As I understand it MOE funding is a per pupil calculation. Enrollments (according to the HCPS website) have been decreasing the past few years. Shouldn’t that mean a decrease in education spending both locally and by the state? I realize school funding is quite complicated and confusing, but I also think that is intentional on the part of the “powers-that -be.” Even in that case if enough payers of their revenue source demand accountability, it will have to done at some point.
Our county budget is still $50 Million higher than last year and we now have a new bond obligation (debt) to repay to the the tune of about $120 Million.
So it’s not like we have a complete victory, with rate increase drop to 5%, over the forces hell bent on confiscating our hard earned money. We have a long way to go in right-sizing county government and getting control of our schools through the State legislative process.
The next immediate steps are enacting a “Constant Yield” for property taxes and changing how school budgets are authorized in the great State of Maryland.
the county should close its website because it is not a needed service as most of you think the county should provide emergency services…namely whenever you guys are bothered by the snow, storms, debris, and broken water pipes. Include the local prison, not needed because you are not in jail.
Should you need the state’s attorney office, then hire your own lawyer to prosecute criminals and law breakers. Should your neighbor build an addition without planning & Zoning then it would be up to you to hire your lawyer, or your private police to take care of business. Should it burn due to unsage electric wiring and burn your property, call the local firehose squad, because you don’t need to pay for fire services. (Volunteer fire dept, also gets significant funding from your taxes) just in case you counter that the county does not pay for fire.
Should you go out to dinner to an unsanitary restaurant, blame the owner not the health dept for lack of safety and sanitation. You’ll just stop eating there after you get out of the hospital from food poisoning.
Should you need assistance with your water, go to the local river and haul your own. No need for sewer, just make a hole on the ground and dispose of your sewage. No need for local dump site, just throw it to your neighbor.
Should you need to send your kids, just teach them yourself.
You call this “private solutions” I WOULD CALL THIS SCENARIO A THIRD WORLD COUNTY; In case you haven’t noticed people move here because we have it better and I thinki having a govt that takes care of most of these things outlined makes our life better.
You ********** and tax revolters are just plain shortsighted on the role your local govt plays in your life. You want these services and need these services. There is a cost to run a govt and provide things that are taken for granted….but are needed to maintain a stable county that prospers and becomes more valuable to us and our loved ones.
Most assessments I have seen, are well below the average sale price for the area. There may be some anomalies in some cases……..but that’s why there is an appeal process that most don’t care to follow.
Rocco –
I have been more than civil with you and you have in turn used a vile and derogatory sex act term “**********” to describe people that disagree with you on the growth in county government and the meteoric rise in taxes.
You have violated this site’s Terms of Service (TOS) http://www.daggerpress.com/terms-of-service/ and you should be ashamed of yourself. I get it that this issue is personal for you, however it is no excuse for your behavior.
You can’t win the argument by making a cogent business case so you resort to defamatory and obscene name calling. You’re a bully and I won’t be bullied by you or anyone else for that matter.
Joe
joe
My bad, “*** ***** ******” no need for any sexual innuendo. Get past the name calling…
Your faulty arguments lead you to now call me names and cite regulations..(funny how you cite regulations when it suits you), Just exercising my right to free speech. Bag that !!!
Nothing vile about my message. If you don’t like the county, leave it. Maybe you could move to Tanzania or Burma…I hear that they don’t have running water, sewage, or for that matter….sanitation, but the good news is that you won’t need to pay for these “non-core” services. Or you can just stay here and move somewhere to the Appalachian Mountains or Montana where they don’t have a need for any services either, then again if your home is there it won’t be worth much, but wait…….you won’t pay higher taxes either……..so its a win-win.
Rocco –
It is unfortunate that you seem to be unable to have a debate about issues without resorting to vile and obscene personal attacks and since your arguments are not convincing you are left with frustration and ill will toward anyone with whom you disagree.
We want fair tax policy. fiscal responsibility and smaller more efficient government at all levels. And we are not going to stop until we get it! We will protest, lobby, persuade, cajole, convince, march, vote and employ every honorable political tactic we need to use in order to move our agenda forward.
We are American Patriots and we will wrest our country back from the brink.
Have a nice day!
Joe
Katelynn correct it is per pupil but when your per pupil amount is $8,029 (at least for 2007-2008 it was It will take a large dip to reach that level of per pupil cut. You are not allowed to realize that cut until October 1 when they take the official enrollment so you must budget based on projected enrollment. If we end up 100 kids light then that is 802,900 dollars they give back conversly the county would fork over that much more if they are 100 kids heavier.
Joe your county council approves the school budget hold them accountable all the BOE can do is propose it but the council approves it.
Joe Caruso
I’d be willing to bet Rocco2009’s picture is next to the term Moron in the dictionary. He has yet to articulate any meaningful point in any debate. Don’t waste your text – hopefully he’ll be at the Council Meeting so we can hear him ramble in person.
Thank you for censoring Rocco’s vile, vulgar and obscene name calling of Tea Party participants.
Joe
Wow – $8,029 per pupil?! I didn’t realize. I home school so I pay that and the $700+- in fees, books, co-op groups, etc. Yes, I choose to home school and choose to pay those additional feels, but I won’t go into that. This dollar figure does cause you to stop and think.
Let’s do the math. If a classroom has 30 pupils in it – which most do these days – that is $240,870 per year to educate those 30 children. Let’s look at an elementary school with two classes for each grade, kindergarten through fifth – so this means a school like YBES requires $2,890,440 to run per year? This is for twelve teachers, two administrators, a couple guidance counselors, an art teacher, a couple music teachers, and some cafeteria help, building expenses and bus runs?
When my kids attended YBES books were not purchased every year, there was a fundraiser for something or another nearly every month, there was a special interest group raising money for computers and equipment, and parents provided all school supplies. Parents were also nickel and dimed for every field trip, special project, etc.
Ok, call me naive, but at this price, shouldn’t the kids utilizing this system NOT have to take remedial math and English when they get to the community college (including the “certificate of merit” students in our high schools)? Many private schools educate just as many children as shown above on a quarter of this budget, and the kids score very high on all aptitude tests.
Let’s stop a minute here and think about something else – the teachers are forced into a politicized curriculum and forced to teach to tests. It’s not entirely their fault that this kind of money isn’t producing a high quality education. They have no options for tailoring their curriculum to suit the needs of their class. Shouldn’t someone put their foot down about all the special interest junk being taught and get back to the basics that people need to get into college or be productive in the business workplace? This kind of money per pupil per year do great things for our kids if we stuck with the curriculum taught 30 years ago, modernized, of course, but the same basic structure.
I know I’m probably putting a bull’s-eye on my back for saying this, but as citizens responsible for contributing to our governing – both by providing input, ideas, and money, shouldn’t we think through these kinds of things? In my opinion, we have enjoyed the boon of the last 15 years of good economic times and only now do we realize just how badly we have abdicated OUR responsibility to be involved and speak up.
Now that we realize it, what are we going to do about it? The Tea Parties are a good start, but they are just a start. We need to get off our couches and be involved in all levels of government at all phases of the process. Now is a good time to start – get involved in shaping the future – and not just through chasing down the stuff that needs to be fixed, but also in praising the things done right. We should be thankful that we are now going to be able to elect our school board, and we should let people know it.
Juls –
The real estate boom over the past 10-15 years has resulted in a number of things:
1) Artificially high real estate valuations
2) Property tax revenue windfalls to county and municipal entities
3) Unprecedented and unsustainable growth in government and school budgets
And now that the “Real Estate Bubble” has burst, reality is beginning to set in that grandiose residential and commercial real property values in the heyday of the market were exaggerated, inflated and overblown.
There is a reset in the real estate market and our economy at-large occurring and it follows that county, municipal and school budgets must adjust to this sobering reality.
Joe
What is John Carroll Cost these days? There are also alot more people that go into running a school and lots of supplies and equipment purchased by a school that are essential that you neglected to mention! You forgot Special Educators, IA’s and other jobs mandated by IDEA. Custodians and maintence personel, Copy Machines are not cheap. I believe a small MS runs a copy bill of almost $40,000 a year on the contract for the machines and paper. Some schools PTA’s have elected to raise money to pay for more computers and stuff but the ones they have and get need upkeep and even replacing, Library books etc. You choose to homeschool. That was your choice. But as I said our per pupil expenditure is one of the lowest in the state! Nobody spending less gets results like we do they get worse and we do far better then some places spending more. That should tell you something there. Remember not every child will use every service in a school system but that does not make them unneeded. Not every child needs to go to the Educaional Assessor that two or three schools share but they have to be there and are needed. Before someone says contract that out…..I do that job for a non-public placement school. I used to do it for a school system. I make much more money now which would make contracting it out cost much more to the system. Not every child has to use CSP but that costs money to run and is again required by law. Sending them to Kennedy Krieger will cost more money then keeping the cost in house.
Also elected boards can be dangerous as sometimes in order to be re-elected board members make million dollar ideas come to life that are not needed or in the best interest. All I am saying is people need to vote long term with kids in mind all over the county not just their school.
Mr Caruso, I have to agree. A house on my street was built new and put on the market four years ago for $899K. It didn’t sell until about three months ago, for $499K. Did the builder really loose $400K? I highly doubt it. Looking at the house and knowing what the property cost, I say he still made a $100K profit.
CDEV – I have no doubt that mine was not an all inclusive list and there are obviously things I’ve forgotten. Could you post a link with the per pupil costs by county across the state. I’d like to see where the information is coming from that states HARCO is one of the lowest. No arguement that it might be – I’d just be interested to know what other counties are spending. It helps to put things in perspective.
Cdev – If the litmus test for the quality of public school education was expenditure per pupil then you should prove it by demonstrating that high expenditures result in better results (e.g.,test scores).
There is a great deal wrong with education system and funding thereof. The public school apparatus is a near monopoly and has no competition. We need to create incentive for performance by allowing parents freedom of choice through school vouchers. We will need to build fewer schools since private schools will fill the void and our public schools will need to compete with other public schools and private ones as well.
A school voucher system scares the heck out of the teacher’s unions and school administrators.
Joe
Money spent per student and quality of education have NO relationship. In MD. the highest spending district, per student, is Baltimore City. Is the $8000 per student figure include all the administration? Does it include all the maintenance costs of the building? We spend a lot in this county for administrators who never even see students.
I have to agree with taxpayer2 entirely, dollars spent has no relationship on quality of education. If dollars spent equals quality of education, then why is my $700 more effective than the $8000 spent by the county?
We have a large family and have sent three through the public school system, the remaining five have been either partially public schooled and partially home schooled or entirely home schooled. Why? Well our kids graduating from the county high school from the certificate of merit program had to take remedial math and English.
At the same time one of our high school kids was a senior in public, we were home schooling a freshman – and they were doing nearly the same subject matter in English. While the public school kid did remedial college classes, the home school kid not only had no remedial classes but tested out of the 101 level classes for math and English.
It’s not about the amount of money being spent, it’s about WHAT is being taught. My kids are not exceptionally smart, but we keep them challenged. We don’t make it easy, and we don’t teach anything unnecessary. We also test our kids every other year through an independent agency to ensure we’re on track. We don’t teach to that test, but allow the test to measure their progress as a true test should.
May I also add that in this group I have two ADHD kids who have been through the same curriculum and done just as well. I understand that it may be a different animal in a class of 30 kids, not all of whom are attentive or kind, but we need to get back to the basics and focus on core academics.
Don’t assume that all home-schooled students don’t take remedial classes–they do. I do not doubt juls’ anecdotal experience. And though many people who home school do a fine job at a lower per pupil cost, there are a fair number who are totally messing up their kids.
I am guessing the that cost per pupil is the school budget divided by number of students in the system. Does anybody know? So that figure would include lots of things not directly related to student learning (unlike the $700 figure from juls that is probably book costs and some miscellaneous expenses). For kids in private schools, books alone can be $600.
Oh, and test scores may not be related to per pupil expenditure, but they are certainly related to per capita income.
Joe school vouchers is simply a ploy to get the taxpayer to pay more money (yes private schools cost more) for a service they can provide cheaper. I am not saying spending more money equals better preformance. One need only look at Baltimore City to see that. That said we do a good job of spending less and getting a good product in this county which is in a state which has the best public schools as a whole in the country.
Lay it out like this. Catholic family of 7 (I am catholic before you accuse me of being insensitive) wants to send their 5 kids to a catholic school to get a religious education. They can not afford to because it costs so much. Should you pay for them to get their religious education in the form of a voucher? Let’s change the religion should you pay for kids at a extremist private school? Besides SCOTUS ruled that was illegal back when they where doing that in Virginia and Kentucky to defacto segregate schools.
Juls I can not find the link I had to the 2006 numbers which is where I got it from. I did find the 2002 & 2003 numbers. Then we where the lowest.
http://www.newsline.umd.edu/business/specialreports/census/pupilchart032505.htm
Taxpayer the highest spending district is by far Montgomery County!
Yes per pupil spending includes payroll expenses for employees it is your operation budget in it’s entirety except for money which is in restricted funds which usually comes from the federal or state govt. for specific programs and grants. Such as Title I funds, FARMS etc.
What I find interesting about this discussion is how no matter how I emphasize the need for fundamental academics everyone dodges that to find ways back to the money. Does this mean we agree that fundamental academics is what is necessary for our kids to be successful?
To be clear, I would pay the Montgomery county rate, whatever that may be, if the school system was hugely successful. No price tag can be put on the kids of our county, and notice, I didn’t say I wouldn’t pay even though I don’t utilize the service.
Somewhere, someone needs to dig down and find out why the system isn’t performing well and what can be done about it – before throwing money at it.
Cdev – There are a number of active voucher programs around the country that have been ongoing for some time. These voucher programs generally allow parents to choose sectarian and non-sectarian school environments. Voucher programs are not inherently unconstitutional as you suggest.
You must agree that our public school systems are by and large failures and it is not for lack of money!
Parents should have choice in how their children are educated, taxpayers should control the purse strings in order to hold school systems accountable and competition is part of the solution.
Joe
Juls –
I agree with you generally, however your statement “No price tag can be put on the kids of our county” is reckless since we do and must put a “price tag” on the education of our children.
Without limits on spending we will not choose the best course and lavish spending in education has gotten us to where we are today as a county, state and nation. There are limits to our resources and we are compelled to manage these resources to the best of our ability…we are not even close to being efficient and prudent when it comes our schools.
Joe
CDEV – I found the numbers on the Maryland Public Schools web site for 2007 – 2008. See the following link for some interesting stuff.
http://www.marylandpublicschools.org/NR/rdonlyres/0C24833A-9CBE-4C09-9010-B7BD88F4B1E0/18996/FACT_BOOK_20072008_123092.pdf
Harford County cost per pupil for 2008 is $10,274.
Average Salaries of Public School Teachers, 2007-2008 – Maryland 60,069 US Average 52,308 – 114.83% of the national average.
Of all of the Baltimore Metro area counties, Harford County has the lowest enrollment at 39,172 students and the lowest cost per student
co #students cost each
harf 39,172 10274
aa 73,400 10847
bcity 81,284 12966
bco 104,283 11038
fred 40,487 10033
howard 49,572 11940
mont 137,717 13536
pg 129,752 11189
Joe – price tag on our kids comes in a lot of forms. For my family it is the cost of a computer engineers salary plus the cost of curriculum and fees. It’s a long term investment in our kids. That was our choice.
In saying that I’d pay higher fees if the school system was working I make the point that I could afford to because my spouse could return to work because we could trust the public system to educate our kids. I don’t see that happening in the years before my kids graduate, and my kids are all preparing to use alternative means of education for their children as well.
I can say without reservation that over 40% of the people I know use alternative education, either private or at home, and I see that number increasing all the time. I am not being inflamatory or exagerating. Our home school group increases by 10 – 15 families per year and the private school affiliated with our church has seen an increase of 45% in the last three years.
Its not a question of money – if we’re paying our taxes and paying tuition and fees, it is certainly not an issue of money. We need to escape the money pit and find the root of the education problem.
I for one, would gladly pay higher taxes rather then the $25,000 I will pay this year for private school. The reason we opted out of HCPS is the same reason Juls did, to get a real education. The public middle school math is inadequate, I had to tutor my kids in Algebra I so they could pass the entrance test. They will have to repeat Geometry. They write an essay a week in private school and learn grammar and vocabulary. In biology they do a lab every week. Freshman can take AP classes and have the option to take biology. If HCPS was challenging my kids we would have stayed in. It’s not about how much they spend, but how much they have watered down the curriculum. It is no wonder that so many students end up in remedial college classes. Juls is right about the demographics. When we moved here 5 years ago, almost everyone in our neighborhood went to public school, now it’s about 50%.
juls thanks for that fact book. I couldn’t find it but you did. It does illustrate that as a county we pay less then most of the state. We pay less towards salaries and despite the claims of some we are not as top heavy in job function as some claim. Is there waste….YES!
I would agree that our public schools can still improve! Not only fiscally but educationally. I could go on a diatribe about why we fail our children in some regards but I will keep it limited to a few thoughts.
We need to realize not all children are the same. Juls in the core basic curriculum we used to have and everyone used some very gifted people got labeled as DUMB! Einstien for one. Does that mean every failing kid is the next Einstien? NO
Part of the reason Moco can blossom as it does is the Large (I think top 5 nationally) student body. For every INTEL scholar they have they have their share of failures. They can fiscally afford to offer many programs and choices that will work for many kids as long as they are willing to take a bus ride. We simply cant offer all of those options. We could with a little more money and redirecting of some of the money we have do a better job and offer more options. Magnet programs do that. They do come with a price. We have kids occupying spots at Harford Tech who should be in an Aberdeen or Edgewood type program; as that is more appropriate towards their goals thus opening a spot for that kid at CMW who would blossom in the Harford Tech enviornment.
Another part of the problem; which we can not legislate, is parenting. Dr. Alonso and many others have it right. It is a three way relationship to lead to successful schooling. The educators, The student and THE PARENT. Some people abdicate that roll and point fingers later. Juls you have taken it upon yourself when you saw your option not working for your kids to step up to the plate and do what was needed for your kid. I applaud that and regret that it was neccessary. You are very right to get great schools you need to fund them properly and run them properly. When you pay some of the lowest teachers salaries you get what you pay for.
Someone said earlier for every Juls out there home schooling there are 2-3 homeschooling failures. Juls knows well that the 2 year mark is when you know if homeschooling will work. That is when testing must be done to demonstrate you are competently educating your child. Most failures send their kids back before the test because they know they did not step up and do what they should. They then become the classroom teachers problem to make up for a 2 year deficite in skills with these straight A’s they got for playing video games. Juls is the shinning example of what is involved and while he says it was $700 if he tried to put a dollar on the time his wife gives up from working, and other strains his experience causes it would be much higher.
Are there teachers just collecting a check? Sure! Should they be fired? Sure! Is that the normal teacher? No! Another poster pointed out that socio-economics has a large role in it. My wife teaches in a MS in Harford County. It is probably one of the poorest income areas! But there is a lot of hard work that goes on in that school that is not seen in test scores by teachers who get there 1.5 hours early and stay just as late. They do things to make a difference. Most of her co-workers get second jobs unless they are married to spouses who make alot of money!
This final thought. Despite our small relative size school system we are still one of the largest in the country. In MD we have large school districts. most school districts nationally are 6-10 schools large. Most of those districts give their elected BOE’s taxing authority. Ask your friends in PA what they pay in school taxes and add it to their property tax. You might find your high property tax no longer is that high!
I agree with juls. The fundamental problems of public schooling need to be seriously and honestly looked at. More money, less money – neither is the magic bullet. The problem with this, as I see it, is trying to get through the education bureaucracy to even get near the root problems. The education bureaucracy seems to be even worse than government bureaucracy!
A great deal of educational bureaucracy was created by unfunded mandates of govt. bureaucracy. Some well intentioned like IDEA and others like NCLB which are not even well thought out. Of note Utah is the only state not complying with NCLB. WHY? Well they realized complying with NCLB cost more money then funding the FARMS program themselves would have cost. So thats what they did!
joe
My comments were not meant to depict a sexual act. Your response to it, was offensive to me and just completely distorted by your overreaction to it. I have a life, so I responded to it after my work day is over and from what I see you and some of the other writers here must not have a job to do, or you have pretty lonely lives.
Braveheart
More like cowardheart in the way you come in and insult me to help your buddy Joe out.
Rocco –
It is obvious you are running for cover since you were admonished by the site Admin for your vulgarity. Your excuse is malarkey.
Have a nice day,
Joe
Maybe Braveheart can also come in and admonish me. get a real life dude.
Rocco – You could ask Braveheart nicely and maybe he will?
Joe
Hey Rocco2009,
Look – before insults go any further. This Tax & Government Reform movement is not about us versus you. It is as simple as this, a family has to live within its means or face bankruptcy and foreclosure, a business needs to live within its means or face insolvency and bankruptcy, a Government up until NOW has not had to deal with the same pressures.
No one is arguing that we shouldn’t pay taxes. My family enjoys and appreciates the County Services just like the next. However enough is enough. The actions of this Government are simply unbelievable. How in the World is it reasonable to continue raising property taxes at 9%. I’ve worked for major Companies in Baltimore and DC and you just don’t EXPECT 9% revenue increases.
I’m not trying to convince you that I’m right. Please take it upon yourself to read the published budget material. Up until the last year I have not been active in this fight. However I took it upon myself to read the Harford County Operating Budget for the last 4 years. Look at the increase of $200,000,000 over 4 years – a 45% increase in 4 years.
Once again, this fight isn’t personal. I don’t blame a Major League Baseball player when he receives a guaranteed $65 Million contract – I blame the system – the owner, the league, and the fan. The fan for his continued support. In this case – we the taxpayer are the Fan – but we’ve reached our limit.
County Executive Craig deserves much of the blame for this debacle. I will do my best to see that he is booted during the next election. Unfortunately, his machine is already in motion. Tonight at the Council Meeting he already had Council President Boniface singing his praises, Craig is now trying to take credit for the reduced 5% appraisal cap.
Fair property taxation? What is unfair about it? How can the county change state law?
These are questions that I haven’t seen answers. The constant yield rate depends on state funding to the county. If the county does not get its allocated share for roads, prisons and state’s attorney office, then the county has a hard time reducing to the constant yield rate.
The fact is that property taxes account for less than 50% of all revenues and state law requires the county to comply with a maintenance of effort rule that mandates how much of the county funds must go to education. FYI 50% of the county budget goes to DOE and 20% for police. This leaves 30% for everything else. Cutting taxes is fine, but basic services must still be provided by either county, state or federal law.
I would hope to see more people involved in the budget process, so that our elected officials make accountable decisions that maximize the people’s money and provide outstanding services. Throwing a fit about taxes by intimidation to the council may get you some results, but in the end the basic cost of running a county of 250,000 people costs money.
Rocco – Are you saying that the Homestead Tax Credit Amendment that passed 7-0 was ill-conceived?
Joe
Ok Rocco2009,
Tough – thats all I can say is tough. “Throwing a fit and intimidation” is all you can come back with.
Why don’t you actually educate yourself on how this Country was born, what Government should be, and the bastard Government has become.
I can’t wait for an efficient Government – one that reigns in the Sacred cows of Education and Jess Bane’s Sheriff’s Office. An efficient Government that is accountable to the people and elliminates Governemnt waste like yourself. You aren’t worth my time or my taxes.
Braveheart, I think you are the moron…..
I am not employed by the county now. I left for greener pastures in private enterprise….the county trained me, and I left for more money, doesn’t that suck if you paid someone and trained them, and then they leave them to start over with someone new?
I know a few more things about the county than you. The county is mandated to provide by law things are not an option, our county charter rule….maybe you can look up what that means. It mandates that we follow state law or federal by order of priority.
Ie, the county has a jail to house state prisoners, but the state has not reimbursed the county for its expenses at the levels that the state should, so the county is mandated to provide housing, health care, safety and manpower to run a jail to house state fellons. People are jailed for braking state law….hence the state of maryland vs. john doe is usually used in proceedings.
Same goes for road maintenance, the county has received $14 million less from taxpayer gas taxes, than the formula would allow so that the state could balance its budget. That money prevented the county from lowering to the constant yield for the past 2 years. In effect, the state raised taxes and did not reimburse the county for expenses incurred.
Due to some federal regulations, the county had to spend over $100k during the past 2 years to update computer systems and security upgrades to be compatible with federal programs. It was not an option to participate or not, federal law mandated these costs. No direct service to the citizens, but needed to be done nonetheless.
State law determines most of the county’s expenditures on some things. or the state pays for them, but then they get to decide on things that our elected officials would rather do than have Annapolis decide for us.
Braveheart, there is nothing brave about you, just nonsense.
Joe,
the Homestead tax credit was rushed without looking at the consequences of its action, we’ll see if it was ill conceived in the years to come. As a general rule I think pricing people out of their homes by increasing their property tax is unfair and should instead be based on the money paid to purchase the home, not on its subjective appreciation. I propose a value added tax, and elimitate income, property, capital gains and inheritance taxes. Payment for assets owned is contrary to capitalism. A value added tax, imposes taxes on those willing to buy taxable products. Add fee for service on other things such as trash, dump, water, sewer and schools.
Is it Rocco or Rockhead? You miss the big picture. It is clear you are a small minded individual. I’m glad we don’t employ you anymore.
Please go away.
Rocco – One way to reign in the county budget growth and reduce them is to “starve the beast” from collecting more taxes through higher rates and assessments. The assessment process is patently unfair and a top priority to fix at the state level.
Braveheart – I think that if Rocco can put aside his emotional reaction to the county budget, services and personnel matters he may be able to see the wisdom and common sense of what TEA Party members are about. with regard to our broken municipal, county, state and federal governments and how these bodies have let taxpayers down and robbed generations of their wealth and future incomes.
Can anyone tell me why after the Co Exec made a big deal about layoffs and cuts would hire hire former Ehrlich suit James Ports in excess of 100k a year,,,I hope the employees who write in and complain to the Dagger will ask the exec why he did this just days after his big press conference to lament budget cuts and layoffs…
Jobs for the boys, Bill, jobs for the boys.
A majority of the state sees Harford County as a hillbilly gold old boys network, which is sad. The people who live in this county are, for the most part, fabulous folks. The county is a beautiful place to live, and has just as many problems as anyone else.
It’s stuff like The Co Exec hiring someone for the salary of three of the administrate staff he laid off right after the lay offs that gives the county the bad rap.
Clean house in the next election folks – clean house.
Juls – We need conservatives that embrace smaller more efficient government and lower taxes for elective office.
The more we burden folks with all manner of county taxes and fees the more unattractive it will be to live and do business in Harford County.
Joe
Juls it is not just high positions. When my wife went to move from BCPS to HCPS and she applied the first time the same year as her student teacher she mentored whose mommy worked in the central office. The former student teacher was horrible she showed up late, unprepared and did not keep a grade book yet got a job in HCPS despite her C in student teaching yet my wife who applied with 6 years experience and high test scores with traditionally low preforming students she did not get hired that year but the next year she did.
Juls & Joe,
We need a “real” Republican candidate for County Executive and the other elected positions in Harford County. By “real” I mean one that truly shares the core values of the Republican Party, Small Government, Low Taxes, States Rights, Constitutional Law, etc..
Please keep me informed if a Candidate emerges.
Braveheart,
It seems like you ought to go to a Route 40 Republican Club meeting. They are the bane of the Maryland GOP – because they respect the constitution, not the party.
That’s what we really need, REAL republicans back in power.
Next meeting is August 13th at 7:00PM sharp. Meeting location is the Ramada Conference Center (Next to the Richlin Ballroom in Edgewood)
I’ll see you there
Braveheart and conservatives –
Take a Rte 40 Republican Club “Test Drive”!
If you cherish The Constitution, want government to work for the people and will work for change that supports these values then it will be worth your time to meet with like-minded folks.
Joe
Next meeting is August 13th at 7:00PM sharp. Meeting location is the Ramada Conference Center (Next to the Richlin Ballroom in Edgewood)
Juls is right about people thinking Harford County is a hillbilly good ol’ boys network, and even though we know it isn’t, you can’t help but wonder what exactly the mentality is when a majority of citizens vote in the same type of people year in and out simply because they’re of the same political party, without any regard to their stand on issues, or those in charge that hire their friends and relatives and don’t look for new blood. I think that’s a major reason why Harford County has the problems it does.
I understand what the TEA party is trying to do, but I find it ironic that they only started protesting after Obama got nominated, and not when the Bush administration was in office. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it appears the TEA party is largely made up of Republicans and conservatives—I can’t help but wonder if their local protests are part of a larger protest on a Democratic president who inherited a fiscal nightmare and is now suddenly the blame for an economy that was going down the tubes before he got into office.
The TEA (Taxed Enough Already) Party movement is a genuine grassroots effort with no central organization and no political party affiliation. Trust me; the TEA Party Participants are as displeased with the Republican’s deficit spending as they are with Democrat’s. Our ideals support a smaller government that follows the Constitution, supported by fairer taxes. I reiterate this point very frequently: We have no problem paying taxes but we want them to be fair and sustainable. In Harford County, the budget has exploded since 2005, growing 45%, while the population has grown only 1.4%.
Mr. Obama (and the Democratic congress) did get elected in the middle of a mess, but he also got elected BECAUSE of it. Bush spent ~$600M in the first round of ‘stimulus’ with little to no obvious impact. That was unacceptable. $2,000 for every person in the United States. However, Obama ( and the congress) was elected under the guise of “change” and the end of politics “as usual”.
Then he went to Washington and spent more money than any congress and president in history, claiming that it was an emergency. Now we have the largest deficit in American history. At what point do we begin to blame him for pushing through the stimulus and cap and trade and health care without reading the damn bills? When does he get held accountable?
I find it interesting that the only people who question the integrity of the protests are those who obviously voted for Mr. Obama. You need not fear that we are trying to stage a coup of Mr. Obama. No, we are trying to get rid of every elected official that doesn’t abide by the Constitution. That starts at the Municipal level and will continue to the presidency.
HDGreader, I hope you will think about the future of the country.
By the way — A trillion dollars. That’s a million million. Or a thousand billion.
1,000,000,000,000
Now, the current National debt, per http://www.usdebtclock.org/ is $11,413,663,553,335.00. That is 82% of the US GDP.
If you had to count that money, at $1.00 per second, it would take 360,000 years.
Bobah I voted for McCain in the general election and Ron Paul in the primary. I am mainly upset with the TEA party movement not because they want fiscal responsibility but more Locally how they handled the situation and waiting until 0 hour to demand change. Protesting is great but as I said before the should have taken the “your voices have been heard” concession this budget cycle and remained vigelant for the next one so a well thought out budget could be crafted involving these cuts. I don’t want them to dissapear or fall off the earth. I just think that they are not being realistic in that regard. Some can not understand that other people like myself feel the same way. April is not the time to join the local budget process. The public meetings where the time to do that so the powers that be could go back and revise the budget making everyone happy.
Mr. Cdev,
I understand your concern.
However, if people are now active and involved in the process, why are you still harping on something that can no longer be changed? It seems like a silly criticism, akin to “new money” vs. “old money” discussions.
IE “Those TEA Partiers have only been involved since April and I have been concerned since at least January. They must not care as much.”
If you give guidance for the future it may be better received.
HDGReader,
I’m a registered Republican. I can understand your suspicion when it comes to the timing of Obama.
However I can assure you that Boobah speaks for many of us in post 98 above.
Cdev & Juls – Re your posts #91 & 93 –
As a non-native of Harford County but a long time resident (25 years), when it comes to the government and the schools, jobs seem to be obtained by who you are or who you know. I would be willing to bet the majority of county employees/teachers are born and bred countians or have some connection to same.
Don’t know if that’s true now that the county has grown so dramatically, but from what I’ve observed over the years it seems to be.
Boobah I am not saying they care less. Just upset about their timing. For the future I would hope that Mr. Craig and the Council would bring them in along with other citizens for a focus group as I suggested in 48. That would help in planning meaningful cuts not just hacking away at what was planned. It is akin to a military operation being told everyone must get rid of 2 clips of amo at the last minute.
Boobah, thanks for explaining it more. It was the timing of the protest, not the protest itself, was what got me suspicious.
I’ve lived in Harford County all my life. Growing up, I’ve heard my parents and grandparents complain about taxes and how expensive it was to live in the area. But they never wanted to move because they liked it here. And I think that’s the rub. Harford County is so appealing to a lot of people moving to Maryland or moving from within Maryland. Then they live here for a while and realize that if you’re not making a certain income, it’s hard to rise above the high taxes and constant fees the government wants to push on us.
As a TEA partier, I am tickled that the council and the exec listened to the “angry mob” of citizens that exercised their freedom of speech to address their concerns about the budget, the property taxes and the impact of the continued increases in the budget’s effect upon the citizens in our county.
Cdev, for some reason you seem to be concerned about the timing issues…may I suggest that you be glad that the issues were finally addressed…the when is less important,.
FYI, I have been involved with the budget and the county on both sides, requesting more money for the teachers and libraries and on the enough is enough side, like now. This is a historic moment for our county. We had impact. We made change occur. We did not do this willy nilly as you imply, but we came together with the common goal of reducing the budget/property taxes and with the input of many groups, individuals and the council and exec, we succeeded. Thank God for the freedoms that we have as Americans.
HDG reader,
The TEA party groups have be around a while, perhaps the media coverage has been less than fair, or existent for that matter. The fact that Pres. Obama is the darling of the media now and seems that he can do no wrong in many folks’ opinion. I am not one of those folks. I believe that we, US citizens, must exercise our rights and freedoms. The lack of exercise allows muscles to atrophy, and by not using our rights and freedoms, by voting and perhaps by protesting, the freedoms/rights muscles will atrophy. I do not want that to happen. I marched in protest against the Viet Nam War, I supported Rev. Martin Luther King and even tho I do not condone abortions, I support a woman’s right to choose. Some of the TEA partiers are VETS and some are Pro-Life advocates, some are involved in “protests” for the first time. You will find that many of the folks that attend the TEA parties are as unique as I assume you are. We have all come together to because of and to attain common goals. Please feel free to attend and see for yourselves.
One more tirade for now, I oppose the Health care plan that is being shoved down our throats. In 1961, Ronald Reagan spoke about the socialist plan for health care and how the introduction of the plan would destroy the freedom of choice that we have as Americans to choose our own health care providers. The plan in front of the house now is worse than the previous bills that were proposed, even the Hillary Care plan from the 90’s. The fact that the bill has not been read by anyone adds to the fear I have that we are being sold out. I urge you all to write, call or email you congress people/ senators to let them know what you want. They work for you. Please contact them now. Thank you. God bless! Pat
1961?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs&feature=related
Cdev, fyi
I agree with you HDGReader, everything about getting a job in Harford County is who you know. I’ve tried for a number of positions with within the county and never even received the courtesy of an acknowledgement. Most of the time I was told the position was already filled but had to be posted in order to follow the hiring guidelines.
I work in Lancaster but keep my family here and make the commute because the common folks are very nice, my little backwater section of Fallston is beautiful and forgotten about, and we love it. We’re outdoors types and love the Gunpowder, Eden Mill, Rocks State Park, etc.
But getting a job within a reasonable drive? Not happening, and I know many, many other people with the exact same story. They commute to Baltimore, Columbia, Ft. Meade, even a few I know that commute to Annapolis and DC. If you’re not part of the “network” or have parents who grew up with so and so, you’re not getting a job doing anything other than retail. It’s worse than many true small towns I’ve known.
braveheart
you seem to have all the answers, maybe your should run for the council or county executive. by the way, conservatives don’t seem to be doing so well anywhere else. I don’t think conservatives have earned the right to call themselves fiscally responsible. More like “less regulation, bail out the banks” party. Tax less, spend more party.
Funny how right after the homestead tax bill passed, they all left happy, meanwhile none of them stayed around for the remainder of the council session. You guys are interested in lower taxes and less efficient govt. because if it becomes less efficient then you can say that it doesn’t work. Its a win-win for you.
Rocco –
So you know what a conservative looks like?
I was at the meeting until the end of it. You have no idea what conservatism is, kind sir! If more taxes and spending ensured better government we’d have the best bureaucracy money could buy right now. We don’t, we need to starve the beast.
Joe
Rocco,
You are dead on when it comes to Braveheart. I have told him numerous times to run for all of the offices because he knows it all and his opinion is the only one that matters. Its amazing how someone with no inside knowledge knows so much about the inner workings of Harford County Government and the Sheriff’s Office. When you ask him to give examples or answers his responses are nothing but blah blah blah. He never answers the questions asked, proving once again he would be a perfect politician
Eric – What solutions do you promote?
Joe
joe
you must have been one of the 3 or 4 that actually cared about the session, most were there to see that the council voted their way, and to their credit it worked. Is not all bad, my taxes will be a little lower for a while, but the real problem lies with the assessment process with the state.
our loca govt needs to live with less, it wil happen. there is no other choice, but dont’ blame them when you don’t get the response you need when public resources need to be accessed.
you guys must really live in a different world, because to refer to govt as “the beast” sounds more like a anarchy than wanting less govt.
Rocco,
I believe that you are confusing the term “conservative” with the term “Republican-elected officials”. I am very surprised at how often I see this error.
The Tea Party movement, and the Harford Property Tax movement are concerned about taxes and about spending. The “republicans” that have been in charge of Harford County have not acted in a conserative way -the way REAL republicans act- in recent years and we intend to take action to that point this election period.
At the federal level, the “republican’ congress and President were absolutely spenders and wasters. There is plenty of evidence to that point. But to say that the “conservatives” were spending and creating deficits is inaccurate. Conservatives are, by nature, fiscally responsible. It would not be inaccurate to say that “the so-called conservative party’ has spent and spent, but maybe that’s what you meant.
Nobody wants less efficient anything. I crave efficiency. It pleases me.
To quote President Reagan “Governments don’t tax to get the money they need, Governments will always find a need for the money they get.”
Rocco – Anarchy, no!
The “beast” the god at the alter of government that requires ultimate sacrifice as opposed to a government that governs least and does not intrude in our quiet enjoyment.
Joe
Pat
Ronald Reagan was an american hero. The way he led his life with Nancy and loved his children and cared for those he came in contact is sorely missed in today’s politician. He did however, believed that govt had a place in american life, and believed in adecuate funding to pay for the things we needed as a govt, nation and invested in people and national pride.
The tea party movement does not have any of the qualities of Ronald Reagan. I studied many of his writtings in college and I was a Reagan Democrat so to speak.
I think to have your group use the memory of such a great american to push for lower taxes, “tame the beast” and brake the back of your local govt, would not be something Reagan would approve.
Rocco –
You’re intelectually dishonest to say the least. Reaganmoics is a a conservasative cornerstone. Even John F. Kennedy understood that lowering taxes makes economic sense.
Joe
“In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IleiqUDYpFQ
Go to 6:00 and watch.
Reagan, first inaugural address.
Also, not fair to comment on a Tea Party until you come out and see.
joe,
I did not speak of reaganomics, but of Reagan as a leader.
By the way joe, I believe in lower taxes too. Taxes should be enought to pay the bills or the bills must be reduced. To just cut taxes and still spend was not a Reagan conservative idea, this idea was george bush 2nd and the tea party seems to think along the same way. I have read their literature and most of it makes no sense, or they just don’t know any better.
pat
Ronald Reagan did not wine or complain about paying the bills, he reduced uneeded programs, and made govt more efficient. this is not what you guys believe in. Your party did not care where the cuts came from, as long as cuts were made.
The bottom line is that you got what you wanted, so congratulations. I just hope someone can run for office with a clear understanding of what is needed and what is not a govt function. As I see it, there isn’t anyone speaking of efficiency and fair taxes, but of “taming the beast” and “cut my taxes”.
Rocco, get off your high horse. The tea parties stand for conservative values and defending the constitution. You sound like the one that is complaining.
The Tea Parties stand as a symbol of unity behind reasonable government and fair taxes.
What?
I think you need to get off the idea that fiscally responsible means being conservative, just see what Bush 2nd and your conservative ideas have done to this country. Cut tax and spend our kid’s generation away.
The Tea Party stood for taxation without representation, clearly that is not the case here.
The government has proven over the last decade or more that if they have money, they will spend it. There used to be a time when Harford county saved and paided for the projects they wanted.
The taxes have to be cut and the revenue choked off in order to bring about real change in government spending. No more end of budget period spending in order to keep the money coming back.
I think the biggest fear county employees have is that the budgets will be slashed over the next few years and we will all see how little we get for our money. We will see how it really does not affect our lives if the government collects and spends a fraction of what they do today.
ted r
No matter how much taxes get cut, the county still has to provide the basic services, and employees will remain employed. The county receives 50% of its funds from property taxes. I predict that you will see increased fees for permits, inspections, dump fees, water bill increases and pay for service fees in the future.
I think that he hope for another round of tax cuts at the local level is pretty much done. I think you can keep up with your demonstrations, but in the end there is no free lunch.
No free lunch needed. We should pay as we go, the way things used to be. As far as the county employees, more will have to go. They are not as important as they would like us to believe. Without all the construction, why do we need as many inspectors as we did two years ago, just as an example.
The cost of water should bel covered by the people using it. Why should I have to cover your utilities when I have to pay for my own well. And the same goes for inspections. rocco, you act as if having people pay their own bills is a bad thing.
hey i heard harford county is closing next friday gov. offices does that mean both court houses as well so if you have a trial they will be rescheduling it.. wtf
bill,
the bill (no [un intenteded) will be paid by those who use the services, If you cut a tax that pays for something and the govt is unwilling to change, then user fees will be imposed to pay fot it. Count on it.
I don’t think many essential county employees will go. Maybe some mid-management, but the political appointees will remain, the favored and the connected. The sad thing is that reducing jobs does not equal efficiency.
Some jobs will be eliminated for public good, and some will be elimitated for public show.
t commercial enterprises across the County are cutting back in some very draconian ways. I was in one of my accounts on Friday, where every employee must take five days furlough in the month of July. Hourly are taking it one day a week and the salaried are taking one full week without pay this month. You haven’t heard anything about those “poor highly important people” because they are just damned glad to still have their jobs. Half of their employees were laid off in the first go around. I wonder if the company can still provide the same services for its customers. You can fairly well bet your ass that they can’t increase their fees to provide the same or worse service.
Eric,
I’m assuming this is the same Eric that supports Sheriff Bane’s and Union Chief Fred Visnow’s Police Intimidation Tactics and the same Eric that supports his facts and conclusions through “rumors”. I believe you were the Eric that stated that the majority of Tea Party movement were “slum lords”.
Eric, lets hope that your remaining time in the Sheriff’s Office is limited. Banes time in office will be over with the Fall 2010 Elections. Hopefully, the new Sheriff will WEED-OUt Officers like yourself that have a problem with American’s expressing their first amendment rights and who are not bright enough to understand how numerous uniformed officers blocking the entrance to Council Chambers might cause intimidation.
Rockhead “Rocco2009”,
Talk about sour grapes. Get over it all ready. The Cap was lowered to 5% – not enough – but it was changed thanks to a group of like-minded conservative thinkers. What is your point about bringing up the Bush administration? I suspect you have nothing to say so you just throw things out there to see what sticks.
The majority of Harford County residents are sick of a Big Inefficient Government that is fiscally irresponsible. The movement includes Republicans, Democrats, Independents, and others.
I’ll give you and your cheerleader Eric one example. Many times, in a business, wages are cut to match revenues – however the hours of the workforce remain the same. Not in Harford County Government – Wages are cut but the employess work less hours – the offices are closed. This is nonsense. Just imagine if a business pulled this kind of nonsense and closed its doors. It would soon be out of business.
Unfortunately Government has a monopoly on Government up until us the taxpayers take things into their own hands.
Perhaps you and Eric should move to Prince Georges County where they have the most Police Departments (and the most liberal Government) of any County in the State – Eric could be Sheriff and you could be his deputy.
rocco
Increasing the number of county employees does not mean we will get more efficient government agencies. Getting rid of the middle management will also help to get rid of the upper level waste. With no one under them, we will begin to see who is just hanging around and who is doing their job.
And I will repeat my earlier thought. What is wrong with people paying for the services they use?
bill
nothing wrong with paying for services used. I supposse that’s the way of the
future to fund needed services. Spreading the cost amongst renters, business and homeowners as well as consumers will be more efficient and more fair.
Braveheart
You never have anythng positive to say about anyone or anything. You are a bully just like all of your tea party comrades.
No sour grapes….your party has ruined this country and you are on your way to do the same to the county.
Rocco –
The Tea Party folks are most certainly not bullies, heck most of them have never protested anything in their lives and now they have a voice in The Tea Party Movement.
It is reasonable and legitimate for folks to speak out against higher and higher taxes and government inefficiencies and wastefulness. Tea Party folks are American Patriots…they may just save our country, state and county from tyranny and statism.
Joe
hello with the county closing next friday does that also mean court houses will be closed have a civil trial next friday just wondering does anyone know
joe
the tea party platform is to reduce taxes, I would welcome their suggestions as to how to make the county more efficient. I don’t doubt that they love their country and county.
Rocco –
I thought you previously worked for Harford County and your wife does currently?
What do you think could be done to make the county more efficient and reduce costs?
Joe
Rockhead,
I’m an American first. I’d vote for Democrat or Independent if they shared in the same conservative values as I. Problem with simple thinkers like yourself is that anybody that disagrees with you is a bully. I’ve got plenty of positive things to say just not about our current county, state, or federal leadership (Republican & Democratic) .
I’m sure that you are some Cliff Clavin Analyst Type that knows just enough to consider himself an authority. Don’t dish it out Rock unles you can take it.
helllllllooooooo harford county people anyone out there are the court houses open
next friday or not
Mr. Botter,
This link indicates that the court house will be open. Of course, the “government” is closed, all except the government. So I don’t know.
http://www.harfordcountymd.gov/Events.cfm?EventID=5076
Oooo,
I read that incorrectly. It claims that all of the government will be closed.
joe
Efficiency in labor costs;
How about paying high producers a fair salary. The current system rewards or punishes everyone in the same manner. If you “meet standards” you receive a raise. No one should be paid extra for doing their job. If people got paid according to their abilities then the county would need less people to do the same job, thus saving on benefits, reduce the number of “mooches” and increase morale.
Simplify the classification system;
Too specialized and boxed in classifications that preclude the best from advancing and keep the long tenured in place without having to justify their salaries. Try getting that one past the unions!!!
Outsource services that the county needs such as IT support, custodial, security and human resources. Private sector can do them on a bidding contract basis and reduce administrative costs.
implement a capital needs program that addresses the needs of the county, and not special groups and jusridictions. New high school at Edgewood was not needed, but got built due to community pressure, as if a new school is going to increase student test scores. The county has more senior centers than other counties of the similar size. Once you open a new building you need maintenance staff, administrative staff, custodial staff and increased utilities to run the building.
I don’t know the true amount of property rentals right not, but it was pretty high a few years back. The rent is higher than anyone else would pay to rent the same space, namely because there is no other party in the county that would need that much space to staff their departments
Move to 10 hr days and reduce by 1 day per week the need to pay for buildings to be opened.
Some of these changes require thoughtfull planning, but would save the county millions of $$$$.
Joe, I don’t work for the county and neither does my wife. I worked for the county for a while and left for private business 1 year ago.
Braveheart
As I said before, you seem to know everything. I knew everything once, and then I got past my teenage years. Grow Up.
Dave Yensan
Sorry to hear about anyone losing their job. I don’t take any pleasure in that. I think you do get off on county employees being laid off. Most of these laid off private sector employess are probably coming to us for help with their mortgage, or asking for social services assistance. You see, when the economy is bad, is when govt demand goes up. If you go by your “private market” rules, then county employees should remain because there is a greater need for their services.
The county can afford many things, and laying off employees is just one of the many ways to reduce costs. See post prior for some more efficient ways to increase productivity, reduce costs and increase efficiency. I think we agree on efficiency and reducing costs, you just believe in cutting for the sake of making you happy.
Rocco –
Interesting post!
Your ideas and thinking are consistent with TEA Party conservativism. The first step is still to restrict the flow of tax money to the county, otherwise Craig and the council will not restrain themselves to fiscal responsibilty. Fixing Harford County requires the political and the practical.
Government must submit to the will of the people and the people must demand it.
Joe
the tea party needs to become a partner at the table of running the county’s administration. While the cuts are being implemented, I don’t know that there is as much will as you think to keep cutting taxes. Next year the state will defer to counties more state responsabilities and the county will have to provide mandated services with the county’s income. with reduced tax receipts as is, I don’t think you’ll be able to demand addional cuts.
To be fair to the county executive, he proposed consolidation of buildings for the state’s attorneys office and a new adminstration building to reduce the amount of money spent on renting additional space, the council however did not approve the legislation, thus the county lost a golden opportunity to reduce costs. the council has its own priorities also, and new officials want to put their own stamp on it. Politics wins out common sense and efficiency in the end.
Rob: Courts in Harford County are open. Those workers are state employees. The next furlough days are Columbus Day, a day around Thanksgiving, a day around Christmas and a day next April.
Rockhead – your spineless
Braveheart
You have reduced your argument to name calling. That is not brave, braveheart.
Rockhead,
I don’t have an argument with you. I’m just stating the fact that you are a spineless little analyst has attacked the wrong person. I like how you actual answer to Rockhead.
Braveheart I would hope the second most populous county with a high crime rate would have a very large police department! That would make sense!
“Unfortunately Government has a monopoly on Government up until us the taxpayers take things into their own hands. ”
That statement above you make comes dangerously close to treason. The Patriot Act has something to say. BTW Pres. Bush the super conservative was totally not conservative he increased the size of govt., violated civil liberties and printed money like it was free. We went from a balanced budget to record deficiets!
Furthermore Braveheart this is now multiple occasions you have engaged in personal attacks on people, a clear violation of this comunities TOS! Please adhere to them or leave the community. I appreciate the posts of Joe, Patrick, Dave and others in the Tea Party movement as they rationally present their position. You however are putting a bad name on your movement with such antics and behavior.
Who (besides Cdev) has ever called President Bush a “super conservative”? Facts only help an argument when they are factual.
He did himself and the many evangelical churches that claimed he brought conservative values back to the white house!
braveheart
You can call me whatever you want. Rocco2009 is just an ID for this forum, clearly not my name.
I don’t think I have attacked you personally. You just don’t like what I have to say, so you reduce to silly name calling.
Your behavior is abusive and defamatory. I am not an analyst, by my experience with mental health tells me that you need serious help, because you are descending into dangerous territory. Get a hold of your emotions, my arguments are based on my point of view, and have nothing personal attached to them.
Is this blog moderated? Do I have to point out how many posts you have referred to me by other names than the one posted? Is there anyone else in this blog willing to tolerate this insane man?
Can someone at the TEA party stop you and your abusive behavior? I guess if you represent the TEA party that’s the image that they will have to live with.
Bullying and name calling should not be tolerated, and if that’s the case, then I shall stop writting here.
Rockhead – Oh my, Lions, and Tigers, and Bears. Like I said Rock – you like to dish it out but just can’t take it.
I’ll be watching ya..
Cdev,
Let me go back and put together Rockheads comments from day one. But you know, whats the point, you’ll still find a way to see it your way….
Braveheart you have not been deragatory and personally atytacked just him but others as well!
brave,…you are not a well man. I hope you seek the mental health you need.
Rocco: I don’t think that Braveheart is in poor mental health, I think he is just frustrated with everything–our county politicians, the state of the economy, the inability to do anything about it, and yes, frustration with you as well. Probably me too. At least that’s the way I read it. Haven’t you called someone you’re frustrated with every name in the book? I know I have and I don’t think I need psychological help. I believe that this blog is a HEALTHY way to express ourselves and I don’t think name-calling is offensive. So I don’t mind Braveheart and others expressing their views with anger; however, I would draw the line at comments that were threatening or implied a threat. That should not be tolerated. Everyone’s idea of civility is different, I guess I don’t mind being called a name if there is good discussion and points being made along with it.
Blue,
Thanks for your thoughts. I don’t put any stock in someone like Rockhead. He puts forth no coherent thoughts and has few principals,
you must mean principles? I don’t think you know the meaning of words, but then again it doesn’t surprise me at all.
blue,
I don’t think you have read any of the posts that this man has put up. If you did you would see that there is nothing constructive in what he has to say, and he seems to descend into a world of confusion and anger. To the point that the blog has turned into a moronic discurse into infantile verbose.
Alright, here’s the deal.
1. It’s time to abandon this thread and begin talking about real issues on another one.
2. Rocco, it often isn’t wise to attack grammatical mistakes on the internet. In your case, this is because you misspelled discourse and “verbose” isn’t a noun. Additionally, the last sentence of post 159 is incomplete.
Rockhead,
Thanks for the spelling correction. I’ll be watching you Rock…
brave,
I’ll be looking.
A question for the “fiscal conservatives”
An honest question here. In the 2000 election if we can remember we had a choice between two mainstream candidates. One who talked of a bslanced budget and another who did not. Which candidate did you vote for? As a follow-up would your vote have changed in light of the last 8 years?
We know that the history will tell on one who was robbed, and another who ended up disgracing America with “weapons of mass destruction” and “Mission Accomplised” nonsense. I don’t think GW was a real fiscal conservative, we haven’t really seen one since Ronald Reagan. I don’t know that a fiscal conservative really exists.
This new brand of “fiscal conservative” believes in cutting taxes, but keeps on spending.
Now, let’s not get ahead of ourselves here, Rocco. It’s one thing to say that GW was not a fiscal conservative (and I would certainly agree) but it’s another to say that they may not exist.
You are absolutely correct that today’s RINOs (Republicans in name only) are not fiscally conservative in terms of increased spending, but I think there are some real conservatives that will step up as candidates as we see the deficit shoot up and up and up!
They will face tough competition from the special interest groups and “community organizations” that will be very displeased with budget cuts at the Muni, County, State, and Federal levels. Let’s just hope that people will realize that the government doesn’t owe the citizens a job, a house, and a meal.
Jim Rutledge is a good example of a fiscal conservative. He is an attorney from Forest Hill and is running for the US senate (Mikulski’s seat). http://www.rutledgeforussenate.com/
This is a link to a viewpoint piece on tax revolt as relating to gay marriage that I wrote. It was published about two or so weeks ago. Hope the link works….
http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=21805
Noel