By Patrick McGrady
The Harford County Council held a meeting [Tuesday] night at the Council Chambers. Approximately 50 budget protesters walked around the building and passing cars honked their support from 6:00PM all throughout the meeting.
At that time, people flocked into the chambers until full occupancy was reached. People that couldn’t fit inside the building were asked to stand outside, which they did. Attendees voiced displeasure at the beginning of the meeting when those without seats were told to leave the room. Attendees also voiced displeasure when told the curtains could not be opened. Council President told attendees that if they did not comply then he would have to clear the chambers.
The Council read 193 amendments to the FY2010 budget. Towards the end of the meeting, attendees vocalized their frustration with waiting until the end, and it took several minutes to calm everyone down enough to continue.
After the amendments were read, several citizens gave comments about the budget and taxes in Harford County. Many people stayed all the way to the end of the meeting — the meeting that went until after midnight.
However, the Council didn’t vote on the budget because they ran out of time. The Council could not vote on the budget until after all amendments had been read in, including those from the Council. County Executive will have to review and amend some of the amendments to get a final document. Final version should be available for a vote at Thursday’s meeting. We will all be waiting and watching for their decision on Thursday at a Emergency Meeting of the Council. 7:00 PM at the Council Chambers in Bel Air.
In other news, the County Council has decided to lower the Property Tax Assessment from 9% to 5%. The County Exec has opposed cuts until just recently.
This means that your home’s property taxes will not increase more than 5%. This is a huge development, but Bob Thomas, the County Spokesman is very quick to say that it had absolutely nothing with the Tax TEA Parties and rallies that have been held Havre de Grace, and Bel Air, most recently at their last Council meeting. When asked if the Rallies and TEA Parties affected the decision, Thomas said:
“Not in the least,” Thomas said. “We believe that some individuals associated with the TEA Party group are grossly misinformed about spending, the issue of taxes and assessments.” “Their property tax bill has gone up because of state assessments,” he continued. “It’s not the result of action by Harford County government and even though the county may reduce the property tax cap, it does not preclude the state from increasing assessments that would create a higher tax bill for them. Some have totally misunderstood the issue entirely and it is not as simple as they may perceive it to be.” –The Aegis, May 27, 2009.
While the State controls the assessments of real property, the County sets both the tax rate and the cap on increases. In Harford County, our tax rate is the third highest in the state behind Baltimore County and Baltimore City, and even bigger Counties like Howard have lower assessment caps. It looks like the rallies are getting under the thick skin of government. And that is a good thing. To quote Thomas Jefferson, “When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”
Photo courtesy www.harfordpropertytaxrevolt.com
It’s good to see people standing up for what they believe in. We will see more of this as our government trys to control larger protions our lives and squeeze our money on account of their frivilous spending. Kudos to all who participated in the protest. Wish I was there to support you!
Sadly, it looks like the County Council caved to political pressure, fearing for their jobs. Prepare to see many, many layoffs in Harford County because of the reduced budget. If you don’t know anyone working for any of the county agencies and could care less, you still need to prepare for greatly decreased services. Enjoy your tiny tax break…
Morons.
Dave,
I would love to see inefficient employees in Harford County lose their jobs. However, there have been no jobs cut, and the budget is not being reduced as much as Craig suggested in his budget.
He requested $75M in cuts and the Council accepted $68M. And I will enjoy my tiny tax break.
Just because the GOVERNMENT is taking less of your money, doesn’t mean that YOUR life will be any less pleasant or secure. Many programs could, and in my opinion, should be funded by private money rather than redistributed via taxes. Let the market decide what programs to keep.
Why should the property taxes increase in a year where the values of our homes and businesses falls 30% or more? Let’s be logical, not sensationalist.
Patrick,
As far as I know, David Craig supported the budget as it was previously developed, not with the cut introduced last night. As of last night, the County Council added a substantial funding cut for many agencies in the county. These agencies had already developed their ’10 budgets to bare bones levels after previously being notified of large cuts. The new cuts were wholly unexpected.
The new cuts WILL require layoffs, reduced hours of business, and building closures. This is not sensationalist (although that term could be applied to quite a bit that went on at the rally your group held recently, which I witnessed) but the news of this morning.
This is not acceptable during an “economic downturn” when the county’s citizens need these services the most. In a perfect world, the government would have been able to operate on a more lean budget during better times so that its services could be there for its citizens during worse times.
If citizens such as yourself, the Harford Property Tax Revolt, and the group Marylanders for Fair Property Taxation have an issue with how property taxes are assessed, they should focus their efforts on how the state assesses property values.
The first result for a Google search of “Marylanders for Fair Property Taxation” is a Baltimore Sun article giving the group a bit of press and talking about the appeals process:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/realestate/bal-md.ho.appeals15mar15,0,4745325.story
This article makes it quite clear that the state is the one assessing your property value and handling your appeals. The couple interviewed showed proof of the successful appeals process taken up with the state. It certainly does seem like a cumbersome process however, and perhaps that is what your group should be fighting to change.
Why again did the Marylanders for Fair Property Taxation group choose to target Harford County?
Thanks,
Dave
We are against what we are against.
Thanks for injecting a bit of humor, Matt!
But, you cannot say you are truly against something, unless it fits on a sign and people can honk at you.
Ah, I see. You approve of higher taxes.
That is a disagreement that I am happy and willing to have. I was equally upset about high property taxes when the boom time was taking place.
While the state affects the issue at the Assessment level, the second half of the issue is the municipal and county governments decision to increase property taxes when everyone else is cutting back. If my business has to layoff people, and my neighbor, who works as a plumber, is losing his home, I feel the pain should be felt at the government level as well.
No one is against paying taxes. We just want to pay fairer taxes. The council and executive both had the option of accepting the same amount of money as they got last year. They chose instead to accept more money so as to fund such projects as new school school construction and astroturf fields.
Yes, the state controls asssessments, but the County sets the tax rate. If they want to cut jobs as their way to stop spending, that’s on them. Trust me, if we got what we really wanted, there would be a lot more than a ~7M cut.
Forgive my ignorance, but when was the last time the County raised the property tax rate? I thought that it was actually being decreased.
Community services are there to help folks in situations like your neighbor’s. Let’s not cut their efficacy when they’re most needed.
Dave,
Do you have a government (federal, state, local) job? How do you know that the various agencies have already cut budgets to “bare bones levels”. Do you have any first hand knowledge? I’ve been throught it before with two private Companies – Harford County hasn’t even put a dent in potential cuts.
Citizens need to take notice on a local level but also on the state and federal level. LOOK at California. I think it is fair to say that all levels of government are bloated. We are all going to bail out the State of California and other liberal tax and spend states. Why shouldn’t Harford County workers receive less since the Citizens paying them have less to give.
The only sector of the economy that is growing is the government sector! The salaries, medical benefits, pensions, and other benefits of the Public Sector are TOO HIGH! Unfortuantely or fortunately the weak economy will now expose the huge wage increases given to public sector employees and the lavish benefits they receive.
Can’t wait for the next election to see Tax & Spend David Craig Out Of Office.
If this is devolving into a “liberals are evil” and “tax and spend” argument, I will just have to disagree with you. Taxes are implemented based on percentages. If a citizen has less to give, they give less. If the state has assessed your property unfairly, appeal it and see if they will lower it.
I see where the confusion is, and please permit me to clarify.
The State gives the County Government a number, the “constant yield” rate. This rate is the number that, when applied to all of the real property in the County, would yield the same total property tax revenue as last year. This year, that rate was set at .994 dollars per hundred of assessed value.
Instead, the Council and Executive opted for increased revenue at the rate of 1.082 dollars per hundred of assessed value. So instead of “making do with what you have” as per Mr. Craig’s inaugural address, they have increased the revenue.
They will tell you that they didn’t increase taxes. Perhaps you also think that because the tax rate itself was unchanged, that taxes didn’t increase. But in reality, people are paying higher taxes this year than they did last year. That is a tax increase in my view.
I apologize if I was misinformed, as I was under the impression that the county has not changed the rate, only that the state has kept increasing the assessments to keep up with the market (which obviously has depreciated recently).
Still, for someone owning property of $200,000, the difference between FY09 and FY10 would be $176. I don’t mean to belittle any amount of money, as this economy is certainly hard on many of us, but I believe that the difference in county services gained or lost over that amount of money is much greater than what the $176 could buy in the private market.
Dave,
It is not personal. Some of my best friends are “liberals” and I respect their opinions. Why don’t you just address the facts?
Braveheart, I’d love to see some facts. I appreciate the explanation and numbers that Patrick provided in his last comment and have responded as such. Giving nicknames like “tax and spend” does little to further the conversation.
That’s right, Patrick. However, you neglected to mention that unless your assessment is decreasing this year (ha, ha). The county Homestead Credit Cap of 9% will increase your assessment figure from last year 9% MORE this year.
The equation is “simple”:
Tax Rate (set by county, state, town if applicable) X per $100 of Assessed value (increases capped at 9% yearly) = property tax bill
So, Dave, the county does not have to raise it’s tax rate to increase taxes since assessments have risen so dramatically. Unless your assessment has decreased (have never seen that in 25 years here), you will pay 9% more at the same tax rate as last year. Assessments are conducted on a 3 year schedule. I was assessed in 2007. My property is not worth that today. You can appeal it within 45 days of receiving your notice. I’m now stuck with tax increases until my next assessment.
When politicians say they have not raised taxes, listen closely. It’s the tax rate they are talking about. They don’t need to raise the rate to raise your tax bill as long as assessments rise.
Katelyn, so then the cap should be set to 0% in your opinion, otherwise you will always be able to say that the politicians are raising your tax rate? The problem seems to be with the entire state system of property assessments and appeals. Why is nobody protesting that?
I know it is not nearly as simple as this or based on the same model, but if I make $30,000 one year taxed at 30% and the next year I make $35,000 taxed at 30%, would you also say that the politicians raised my taxes? My tax bill certainly would go up and it wouldn’t be because they raised the rate.
Dave ,
I recently switched jobs, taking a 10% pay cut due to the fledgling economy. My household budget has been cut by 10%. We no longer go out to eat every Saturday night, we haven’t been to one Oriole game so far this year when we attended 12 last year, and the wife and I don’t intend on taking a summer vacation. We’re tightening our belts, its time for the Government to tighten theirs!
Now is the time to provide relief to the tax PAYERS, not the tax USERS. If you would like to pay more, remember, the number on the bottom of your tax form is a minimum. You may always pay more if you would like to fund our government.
Not necessarily 0, but at 9% per year my taxes will double in 8 years (I think it was 8 – I did the math but don’t have it in front of me) It’s kind of like compound interest – as the number increases 9% becomes “real money”! With the housing implosion, I think 0% would be appropriate this year. That would make my tax bill what I paid last year.
I never say politicians are raising the tax RATE, just raising the taxes since they are getting 9% more of my money each year. Bottom line is I’m paying more and it is set up so the elected officials can blame the assessors. However, the elected officials can cut the rate side of the equation.
As for taking on the state assessment folks, count me in!!
Katelyn I will second that. the Home owner owe’s the tax assessor’s office a visit.
I support Katelyn’s remarks to the tax rate increases. The 9% “cap” leads to increases equal to 9%. For those familiar with math tricks, the rule of 72 tells us that it will take approximately 72/9= 8 years for taxes to double, with no increase to the rate.
I also feel that the tax cap rate this year should be set at 0%, until the assessments process is fixed. This could be a sign to Annapolis that Harford County is not OK with the current assessment system. Don’t even get me started on that. Another thread will soon pop up for that, I’m sure.
The best analogy I can present is that of a household. If a household sees a decrease in net value, either through stock market wealth or car value or lost income, then they have to cut spending.
If the debate is a reference to the suggested behavior of government, then that is different from spending. I, for one, feel that there are many, many positions and funds that are funded by taxes that shouldn’t be. For example, private sector building inspectors would be more efficient to the taxpayers. Additionally, the County employees have 86% of their health care premiums paid, (while down from 96% a couple of years ago, it is still higher than the private sector 75%)
Anyhow, I am fundamentally opposed to waste, not spending. For those of you who feel that the programs are beneficial, please email the County Council and Executive how you feel. Whether you support or are against it, you can send a message to all of them at once from my orgs website at
http://www.harfordpropertytaxrevolt.com/contact-elected-officials.html
I don’t get any money from the site, I just put it together so we could be represented on the internet. I support citizens that speak up, no matter their belief.
Please tell your elected officials where you stand. Too often they push their own beliefs onto the people without concern for the constituency. Thanks!
Dave,
Where are your facts?
That was you above in post #5 – wasn’t it? You are one stating that the County budget can’t be cut. I simply want to know where you are getting your facts. Are you a County worker, do you have some personal skin in the game?
As far as I’m concerned, I’m stating the facts. Pick up a Wall Street Journal. Do you want to debate the merits of the California State Budget. Do you know something that the Wall Street Journal Doesn’t?
As far as the Harford County Budget – look at it – educate yourself. It is available on line. Focus on the Sheriff’s department. Focus on the number of officers making in excess of $80,000 a year. What other professional can you retire after 25 years and start collecting 50% of your salary right away? 46 year old retirees on the County dime for the rest of their lives, is that fiscal responsibility?
Went to the council meeting tonight. After all the hoopla, a postponement from 3 pm to 6pm to 7pm, and another round of amendments to the budget, the rate was cut to .908 from .926. Adjust your budget accordingly!! Your county bill should be at $.908 per 100 assessed (on a 9% cap) + the state rate of .112 (on a 10% cap)+highway tax .156 (not sure, but 10% cap?). If you live in town, it will be .908 (9% cap) + your town rate (and town cap) + the state rate of .112 (on a 10% cap).
Not much but a step in the right direction, I guess. The council person I spoke to afterwards said they are already being inundated with emails from county employees/agencies with predictions of severe service cuts! Welcome to the real world, guys.
Public hearing on the cap reduction to 5% will be July 14 at 7pm. Check the county website and BE THERE.
Braveheart, I guess you do not need the services of the sherrif and do not appreciate the work they do. Do you really want to encourage 60 some year old sherrif deputies who can not do the job to stick in there? They earned that retirement as far as I am concerned. Further more all the money is not the county dime! They paid into that plan and the state kicks in too!
The internet really allows people to use the most fallacious arguments.
By opposing waste in the government, and lifelong pensions, Braveheart does not support geriatric sheriffs, just as you don’t want sheriffs to be on the force for the prime of their lives– from 18-25.
Economically speaking, it would be more cost effective to evaluate the present value of their time on the force and pay them that amount, so as to save money in the future. For example, if our society valued the contribution of the police at $6M per year, then we should pay that upfront. However, because of unions and the realization that they can vote themselves money, they earn until they (or possibly until their spouse) dies.
Also, “they paid into that plan” is not an effective argument when the pension costs are reflected in my tax bill. Social Security is a similar plan, where 3.5 taxpayers pay for each dependent. And please don’t be confused about the “state.” We all pay into that. Not just police.
We are all a part of the State of Maryland, the same way we are a part of the County. If the majority of citizens decide that salaries should fall (or rise), or that we should have no (or a greater) police force, then it is both our privilege to elect representatives that will carry out the will of the people.
Please don’t misunderstand me either, I feel that an effective and efficient police force is necessary for the well-being of a society, and the Harford County Sheriff’s have only let me down three or four times. I am just speaking from economic and democratic theory.
Cdev,
Unfortunately people like you “guess” incorrectly to often. Don’t assume what I’m thinking. I generally appreciate the job of all police officers.
You are simply ignoring fiscal discipline. The job responsibilities simply don’t warrant the level of salary, pension, and other benefits including the unbelievable disability leave and vacation leave of Harford County Deputies (UNIONIZED by the way). Take out the emotion and simply look at comparables in the private sector. As I said before – where else can you retire at 46 and start collecting a 50% of your pay for the rest of your life. Many of the officers simply move to other police departments and start accruing an additional pension.
47-55 is not 60 by the way. When is the last time you heard of a Harford County Deputy in a foot chase?
Comments regarding past pay and benefits accorded to the employees of Harford County are misplaced, and begin to look like demagoguery. Nobody came to my house, wearing a ski mask and brandishing a gun, to extort a higher salary. The fact is that I gave them that salary and those benefits, not by any deliberate act, but through my own complacency, and I suspect that everyone currently complaining did the same. It is too late to complain after the ink has dried, time to make changes is gone. In order to prevent future recurrence, be there when the page is empty. Any contintuation of complaints in the area of compensation already awarded betrays a pettiness and silliness. Somewhat like a bully knocking the ice cream from the hands of another, because the bully does not have one. Rather than attempting to change the past, be glad that we were able to pay Harford County employees well for they jobs they do on our behalf.
Contraty to some opinions, the proposed 5% tax cap does provide significant tax relief to real property owners. As has already been discussed the cap on the increase in property taxes represents expopnential growth, and the rule of 72s can be used to project the period of time required to doube taxes. Using both of these, and extending the calculations, the impact each will have on property taxes, and how much will be saved using with a 5% cap becomes apparent. In Marlyand, property taxes are established on a three year cycle, and the newly assessed value is phased in over that three year period. If a property assessment is increased 30%, it will take about 3 years to be phased with a 9% cap and 6 years with a 5% cap. In that 6 year period, using a 9% cap, and with the fact that property taxes will continue to rise, taxes will have increased by 167%, while with a 5% cap, the 30% increase will have just been fully phased in. Using the rule of 72s, taxes will double in 8 years with a 9% cap, with a 5% cap they will have increased by 147%. It will take 14 years and 5 months for taxes to double with a 5% cap, and in that same period, with a 9% cap taxes will have increased more than 3 and one half times, doubling almost twice. Do the calculations on what you pay in property taxes now, and compare the 2 figures, then decide whether the 5% cap is more than just an illusory saving.
As for the impact of the County Council meeting last night, don’t judge the message by the package. In the past few months there have been some truly significant changes to the County. The first was the change in how the School Board would be selected. Selection of 6 of 9 members, is now through election by the residents in the County. The second significant change is in the results of last nights County Council meeting. The County Council effectively returned the process of government back to the residents of Harford County, and told the County Executive that the process of governing was no longer his exclusively. The impact is enormous.
When the School Board budget represents more than 40% of the Harford County Budget, and is still growing, it is absolutely essential that County residents become involved in the process, to control taxes.
The message to all residents should be quite clear. Become very familar with the County Charter, understand how the budget is constructed, how the budget process works, and be prepared to participate actively in the process of government. Complaining about wasteful spending, quoting patriotic statements mad by those who risked lives and fortunes to establish this country , tappealing to political affiliations, or commenting on the employment potential of elected officials is no longer acceptable in Harford County. It is now our obligation to actively participate in the process to change the present for a better future.
As so eloquently stated by POGO, a very simple cartoon character, we have met the enemy and he is us.
When is the last time I heard of a sherrif in a foot chase? Yesterday I saw it in Edgewood!
Next, Patrick I understand your arguement but I think your proposal of paying up front what an employee is worth with not pension would cost more in the long run. A few occupations to consider Police, FIre, EMT, Teachers; that makes up the majority of county employees. I think we all agree they are invaluable and deserve more in compensation then they get in the present. Teaching alone special ed, Science and math teachers are so few and far between we have trouble meeting the demand with people not to mention qualified people. This would indicate the should command more money. There is a good chance we would pay more then they get with their state retirment money.
Finally Jon Mallamo the school board budget did not increase! It stayed the same. It stayed the same despite the increased cost of buisness meaning less money for the kids. Most people complain about this budget but fail to realize there is nothing the county can do about it. The state requires maintenence of effort from the county council meaning they must have the same per pupil spending rate from year to year it can not go down. Harford county has the 3rd lowest per pupil spending rate in the state with only Caroline and Kent County spending less.
Some others also forget that we have a lower piggy back tax thenother counties. I consider taxes a needed evil. We need to pay for services and it costs money. We have some of the lowest teacher salaries and other salaries. This is not going to attract the most qualified people for the jobs. You get what you pay for. We want million dollar service for $100,000 cost. Next time you are not getting the service you want from the county just remember you got what you paid for.
Sir,
No doubt that the School Board operating budget is the same as last years. You forget that the School Board, at the request of the County Executive, did in fact reduce its operating budget last year by 5%. Was it possible to do the same this year, maybe, it really ccannot be determined because the operating budget is presented as a total sum.
In addition to the operating budget there is also the capital improvement budget. Are reductions possible there? Perhaps.
I can state that after having listened to a more than one member of the HCPS administration address budget questions regarding expenditures, that there does not appear to be any quantifiable criteria for the budget items submited. For quick reference, look at the current elementary school situation. There is currently excess capacity, which has been increased by completed additions to the Joppatowne Elementary School, and will be increased by completion of the addition to Deerfield Elementary School. Add to that the construction of the Red Pump School and there will be about 2000 seats over projected requirements. With all of this, both the County Executive, the School Board and HCPS administration announce that the Campus Hills Elementary School is also required. Hardly a model for fiscal responsibility, when each school will cost between 35 and 40 million dollars, regardless of the economic situation, There is most certainly something that the County can do about that.
Sir, I would respectfully submit that that a better exlanation of requirements is in order before concluding that the School Board budget is fully justified.
While I completely value education, I don’t think that any single teacher, sheriff, EMT or fireman is earning less than his inherent value. If such were the case, he or she could readily change professions.
Also, as I understand the “maintenance of effort” legislation, it permits for the County to waive the specs of the rule one year at a time. I’m not saying we should be spending less, but I disagree with the effectiveness of the maintenance of effort law.
Such floor spending plans call for increased spending year after year and disallow for cuts in spending as result of increased efficiencies or economies of scale.
I think we can all agree that there are problems in the compensation plans for all County Employees and in the levels of spending in county programs. Whether that means that staff are paid too little or too much, I hope that each reader will take initiative and help craft next year’s budget. I will be there, for sure.
I agree the capital budget has some room to be worked with. First off telling parents in Bael Air and Fallston schools their children will be shifted to the route 40 schools where the space is will have to happen and they will have to accept it.; which never happens! The two additions you mention are in schools which have a considerable amount of houses on tap to be built. That would occupy the space. This is the kind of thinking that should be used county wide and isn’t. It would prevent the overcrowding in other areas. The opperation budget was reduced voluntarily. It meant cuts and reductions which indirectly impacted kids. Penny pinching and things that will continue. The maintence effort exception requires state approval and the 13 counties that asked for it did not get it.
Some teachers do leave for jobs that pay more science teachers become pharmacists and money is cited as the chief complaint. Some special ed teachers get jobs in non-public placement schools which pay very well.
Sir,
I would refer you to the Board of Education web site, please look at the major subdivision activity by school district page.
Cursory review indicates that there are 200 condo/apartments to be built in the Deerfield district and 9 single family and 30 townhouses in the Joppatowne district.
While those numbers may appear to be large, they are relatively small compared to building permits in other areas.
I agree with you completely that there should be a rigorous review of all expenditures, planned and completed, to ensure that funds are well spent. I would expect that with more participation from the residents of Harford County we could get periodic budget reviews, and audits.
John Mallamo,
Don’t lecture me on over-compensated employees. It is certainly not pettiness to point out problems. The problems need to be corrected through salary freezes and decreases, attrition, increased benefit pick-up by government employees, and more efficient management.
The County Executive and his overpaid Department Heads need to be held accountable for the damage they’ve done.
Cdev
Once again – you’ve added nothing but your emotion and incorrect facts to the conversation. Harford County has one of the higher piggyback tax rates in the state. Do you get all your facts from the Baltimore Sun?
No I got them from my MD income tax book!
Teachers are picking up an increased benifit burden. They have had a phase in of the pention contribution over the last few years and next year they will pay more for their health insurance. So between that, the step increase they are not getting and the furlough days they will probablly get we are cutting their salaries! This will make up for the two million doars less the education budget will have because that is how much less the state is kicking in. So…..When your kids teacher is working their second job and does not have time to grade their papers fast enough for you remember you demanded we cut their salaries. When your kids science teacher becomes a pharmacist and their are not many science teachers coming out of college and we don’t pay well so you get a long term sub for a vacancy. You get what you pay for.
As I read these stupid posts, I am realizing one thing. As far as facts go, I have never seen a more distorted view of reality than some of the ramblings folks put on this thing. Plus, the same people post day after day spewing their point of view and misinterpreted facts/data. If anyone wants facts, I suggest they go to the source…whether it be the Sheriff’s Office, County Council, Administration, Board of Education…etc. Everyone here thinks they are an expert.
A BLOG is nothing more than a gossip rag where people are free to put out their twisted view of reality. Well….as for posting, I think I am done, and as for you other regular whiners, All I have to say is Get a Life!…..there is a whole lot more to live for than riding this gossip train.
Is it really true Sheriff’s Dept. officers can retire after 25 years and start collecting 50% of their salary immediately? Since they have plenty of working years left, wouldn’t it be more reasonable to let them retire after 25 years, enter a new line of work where they can invest in a retirement plan, and then start to collect their (our) county money at 62?
On a similar note, am I the only person who find it completely ludicrous that elected officials receive a pension (a huge one in Congress) after serving their terms? I don’t care if they are local, state or federal, nobody elected to an office deserves any retirement pay. If they were forced to actually hold a real job to plan for their futures, these freeloaders would not become career politicians, and we could have a steady rotatation of fresh ideas in goverment – a form of naturally occurring term limits.
OMG what a huge benefit being able to collect a retirement after 25 years of service in one of the most stressful/dangerous jobs in the world. I guess that would be a great Idea making them wait until 62 to collect a pension, especially since most of them are dead by then from the years of high stress, shift work, and holidays missed. Thats if you dont get shot,stabbed, or injured in some other way. I wouldn’t expect most of the bloggers on here to understand that though, since most of them would be scared to walk around the streets at night chasing bad guys. Let me guess, they chose that profession and knew that going into it. Yeah, thats true so you go to work tomorrow carrying your lunch box and briefcase while the law enforcement community straps on body armor and has to carry a gun. to protect you. How quickly we forget who the true heros are. I find it very interesting that the people most concerned with property taxes are the slum lords who dont live anywhere near their rental propertys.
Cdev – The rates below are from MD Comptroller’s website. I’m publishing them so that readers understand that you, Cdev, clearly mistate the facts. Harford County’s rate is higher than 17 of 23 Counties.
2008 LOCAL TAX RATE CHART
Subdivision Rate
Allegany County .0305
Anne Arundel County .0256
Baltimore City .0305
Baltimore County .0283
Calvert County .0280
Caroline County .0263
Carroll County .0305
Cecil County .0280
Charles County .0290
Dorchester County .0262
Frederick County .0296
Garrett County .0265
Harford County .0306
Howard County .0320
Kent County .0285
Montgomery County .0320
Prince George’s County .0310
Queen Anne’s County .0285
St. Mary’s County .0300
Somerset County .0315
Talbot County .0225
Washington County .0280
Wicomico County .0310
Worcester County .0125
Phil Dirt –
“Is it really true Sheriff’s Dept. officers can retire after 25 years and start collecting 50% of their salary immediately?”
Yes it is true and the Harford County Police Union is pushing for even more robust benefits. See the link below. Your idea is interesting and makes more sense than what is going on now.
http://www.harfordsheriff.org/employment/benefits/
Health Insurance/Dental Insurance/Vision Insurance/Life Insurance/Disability Insurance
Flex Spending Accounts
Deferred Compensation
Retirement
Law Enforcement – LEOPS
4% contribution from employee
25 years of service – 50%
Corrections – HCSO Pension Plan
7% contribution from employee
25 years of service – 50%
Uniform Allowance
Take Home Car Program for Law Enforcement
Leave Accruals
Annual Leave (8 hours a month)
Sick Leave (10 hours a month)
Personal Days (8 days per year)
Paid Holidays
10 Observed Days Per Year
Funeral Leave
3 Days + 1 Day For Extended Travel
Military Leave
Eric,
Good points on the dangers and stress associated with Police Officers. I haven’t challenged those facts and generally will not. However that doesn’t dismiss the fact that they are mismanaged in Harford County and overpaid. Look at the Harford County budget. Look at the number of officers making over $80,000 a year. Look at the huge increases given to the officers and Civilian Office Staff. Look at the inordinant number of supervisors – who are they supervising? The curent Sheriff is beholden to the The Police Union for some reason and will continue to push for higher and higher salaries and benefits.
WhAT FACTS do you have to support that the most concerned with property taxes are the slum lords who don’t live anywhere near their rental properties?
Most of my middle class friends, family and neighbors some of which are police officers are all concerned with the increasing tax burden. Few if any own any rentals properties…
Braveheart,
How man sherriff’s deputies are making more then 80,000 a year. It is not most as you say. They have a dangerous job and are not overpaid. They are overworked and underappreciated.
to eric, the King of Exaggeration:
“one of the most stressful/dangerous jobs in the world” – A Harford County Sheriff’s Deputy? Really? Dangerous, yes, stressful, yes, but one of the MOST STRESSFUL/DANGEROUS in the WORLD? Really?
“…making them wait until 62 to collect a pension, especially since most of them are dead by then…” – Really? Most of them?
“walk around the streets at night chasing bad guys” – Really? On which streets in Harford are they walking around at night chasing these bad guys?
I have a great deal of respect for LEOs, but your arguments sure don’t help their case. Try to maintain a little perspective, son. Unless, of course, YOU are a deputy – then this is nothing but a self-serving, pathetic attempt to sway a debate through deception and misrepresentation.
“… the people most concerned with property taxes are the slum lords who dont live anywhere near their rental propertys (sic)” – Really? And are most of the folks at the protests slumlords? And are most of the ones who are upset but didn’t attend the protests slumlords? Have you always had a strong feeling that you are surrounded by slumlords and they are watching you? Perhaps your home was at one time owned by a slumlord. Have you checked for listening devices or hidden cameras? They are all around us… watching… listening…
Time to chime in. First to Honest Harford Voter (Post #38). Yes this is a blog, the purpose of which is to offer a venue by which everyone can express their viewpoints, feelings and thoughts. People who read The Dagger and post on it at least care about what is happening around them. Telling us to “Get a Life” is both childish and churlish. Secondly, Braveheart’s posting (post #35) regarding the County Exec and ovepaid heads is spot on. I have never witnessed a more self-centered, self-important group in my life. (Don’t know anyone on the Bd of Ed!) These characters are still going around in their county vehicles to meetings and training and trips. The whole cutting back on that lasted for about 2 weeks. Change needs to start at the top but I don’t see this group giving up a damn thing, while expecting us to be the ones to sacrifice. Thirdly, regarding the Sheriff’s Office, while I am pro-law enforcement and believe it is one of the most important sectors to which our tax dollars go, it is also true that there are a lot of bloated salaries for officers who will never retire. Why should they? Once they become supervisors, especially sergeants and above, they all have desk jobs, weekends off, company cars and all the other amenities stated above in Braveheart’s post #42. These fellas haven’t been on foot chases in 20 years and are just milking the system. Also, the fact that they linger forever makes it impossible for the younger deputies to move up, which forces the sheriff to promote more supervisors that he has slots for, which leads to an excess of supervisors compared to actual road officers. The Sheriff needs to get these hangers on out from behind their desks and force them to retire after a certain age, otherwise, why should they retire? They are the ones earning the highest salaries and doing the least amount of work. It seems the heads of all the agencies are the ones who need to lead the way and they are unwilling to do so. No wonder we are all disgusted. Watch out election time.
There is a lot of fat in the BOE budget too if you could get your hands on it. How many administrators are there in a school? Beside the Vice Principal(s), there are Teacher Mentors, Teacher Facilitators, and in high school you have Resource Officers. Then there are Curriculum Supervisors, Department Heads, and so on. Many of the teachers go into Administration so they can get out of the classroom AND make more money. Can you necessarily blame them? Why does the school system need all of these “teachers” in administrative roles? Maybe they could get away with them years ago but not anymore. No difference in teacher salaries either – it is all about seniority. I think great teachers should be paid a lot but they have put themselves into a bad situation by wanting to be professionals but yet wanting to be a represented by a union.
How about the principals in the schools that spend a lot of time out of the school and meetings in Annapolis or other places. Do taxpayers want to spend money on that and then we need more money to hire vice principals because the principal isn’t there. How many administrators spend most of their time in meetings and not working directly with kids? I have no problem spending money on people who are working with children but I have trouble spending a lot of money of teachers whose job it is to work with teachers who apparently don’t know what they are doing. If you talked to teachers, many of them will tell you the same thing.
BTW – if there are any science teachers who can get into pharmacy school, then they absolutely should try. Extremely difficult to get into and only 1 pharmacy school in Maryland.
Really,
Point # 1 the profession as a whole unless of course you can predict when and where the next officer to be killed will be, and if that’s the case you need to make better of your time than blogging Really.
Point # 2 Average life expectancy of LEO 54-57 Really that is of course unless it is during the line of duty which is at the very old age of 38 (average of course Really). ** side note also one of the higest suicide rates by occupation and retirees Really
Point # 3 What streets? Have you ever heard of Perrywood, Edgewater Village, Windsor Valley, Brookside Drive you know where all the shootings and stabbings take place and foot patrols occur on a nightly basis. You know the places I’m sure you take your family to hang out around Lake Serene Really.
Point # 4 I’m not your son Really. I am no longer a member of the Sheriff’s Office I retired making 150K a year Really and figured that since I sat behind a desk and didn’t do anything I should retire. Besides with all of the days off I got I was hardly ever at work so why not take my 50% and travel the world Really, and when I’m not traveling the world I put my feet up at my 600k home located in Todd Lakes Really (which I love to pay the taxes on Really). So with such a lavish lifestyle no my home was not owned by a slum lord this is the only point I was basing on the rumor mill to which I heard the TEA party leaders were slum lords maybe maybe not. Well I have to go pack my bags off to another tropical location bon voyage Really!
Thanks
Eric The King of Exaggeration
Eric
Do you need help? You sound unstable……
Cdev,
To your point in #44. I never said most. Go read my postings again. Also – you never did comment about the Maryland Piggy Back Tax Rates. When is the last time that you filed a MD Income Tax Return?
This year and I recal thinking it was much lower then PG county and other counties I have had to pro rate for.
Eric: Regarding your post #48–I am an intelligent person but I have no idea what, if any, points you were trying to make. If you would care to clarify, I am listening. Maybe I just don’t get your sense of humor or perhaps the late (early) hour you posted caused you momentary delirium.
Blue,
Read post 40 and 45 48 should then become clear
Eric,
I remember a deputy that cleared calls for service without ever moving the car he was sleeping in. His superiors became curious and had a transponder put on his car to catch him. Was that you?
To get away from this ridiculous argument and back to the original topic at hand, Patrick mentioned that he would love to see inefficient employees lose their jobs and that he would prefer for the market to decide which programs are important by funding them with private money.
If the budget cuts mean that Homeless Services can only afford to offer 75 beds instead of 100 (I don’t know the real number), will private money step up to pay for those 25 beds and help our county’s most vulnerable citizens? Does this mean that Homeless Services was 25% “inefficient”?
If the library has to close branches because of the budget cuts, it is not necessarily because it they are “inefficient” branches or because their employees are “inefficient.” That argument makes no sense. I also don’t see “private money” stepping up to open a free library in communities who will lose their libraries.
Some things could possibly be “outsourced” or contracted, such as road maintenance, construction, etc. However, how does one make money off a venture providing services to the Homeless? How will private money offer financial assistance to those in need of health care or assisted living facilities for the elderly?
These property tax cuts may offer a couple hundred dollars of a tax break to many homeowners in the county, or perhaps a thousand dollars or so to those owning some of those gorgeous sprawling estates such as the Boniface farm. However, the cuts in county services required by these tax breaks will disproportionately affect our most vulnerable citizens, many of whom are renters and gain absolutely no benefit from a property tax cut. Many children, whose families can’t afford computers or Internet access, use our libraries to do their homework. There are quite a few decent people who are down on their luck currently using the county’s services for the Homeless, working during the day and then getting picked up by the van to sleep in the shelter at night while they get health care and save up to be able to afford an apartment.
It offends a moral Christian (or any other religious, for that matter) sense of justice to give the better off among us a leg up at the expense of “the least of these,” especially in these hard times.
Dave or should I say Chicken Little? How are any of us to begin to comment on a supposition so preposterous that it equates cutting the fat in government to offending Christian morals?
Thank you for giving me a nickname, as seems to be the norm for comments here. Why always with the name calling?
Anyway, most of the signs I’ve seen from the protests seem to have little to do with “cutting the fat” in government. “Enough Already I Want My Money Back” and some ridiculousness about how we live in a dictatorship, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, are a few examples.
The argument being put forth in this discussion is that our county government is inefficient and that the citizens would be better served by private enterprise. I suppose being more efficient would be to get better service while spending less money. Could someone explain how they envision that happening?
I don’t believe the current budget cuts will do anything to make the services more efficient. They will cost less, but they will also decrease in quality and/or quantity in at least an equal amount.
Dave your Right. some of us are Hanging’ on by a ” Toe Nail” as they say’
Dave,
I disagree with the premise that county government is run effciently. The county budget is funded by property taxes, fines, fees and state/federal programs that ultimately are paid for by tax payers.
The implication that there would be more folks starving, homeless and uncared for if the county budget is cut is not logical. The county has its own guidelines now, that many folks that just need a hand up are not eligible to receive. IE. if you make a few cents more than the limit, the county cannot help you w/ rent, foodstamps or fuel funds. I would rather give the help to those that need it. The use of welfare or food stamps or other funded programs on a life long or long period of time, more than a few months at a time, is not helpful to any of us. The state does not owe me a job, but the hand up is welcome, if I need it. The work for food concept, along with working for a place to live, is common among a lot of less blessed countries. I hope that we don’t have to go to that here, but the high taxes in this county are causing a lot more folks to barter or trade for necessities.
This is important to note. That is where other com. services help, ie churches, lions club, purple heart, salvation army,girl scouts, boy scouts, lady republicans, kiwanis and chambers of commerces, to name but a few. The kindness of strangers in this county is always supplementing the number of folks that the county helps.
I think that the county gov. does not have the most effective methods of dealing w/ its own personnell, so many of the folks that work at the court house and the soc. services have many better ways, ideas of dealing w/ stuff, issues that affect clients, but they are limited in how they can fix issues.
The police are in the same boat. The police patrol folks here in Aberdeen, they could write books on issues that they could fix if they were allowed to do so, but “politically correct” behaviors, or cya stops the efficiency from happening.
I was lucky enough to work w/ the sheriff’s task force on some youth related issues and I cannot praise them enough. But they can’t act on their own because of “polictically correct stuff”. Whatever that implies.
I am not able to quote a lot of the tea party messages, but the messages that I shared address the need to reduce the impact of government in individual lives. If that means I am a slum lord, ok. I do think that the govt. does not have the answers to my life questions. I do think that if I need help, I should go to God first, family second and then country. I do try to live that way.
I am not promoting non-payment of taxes, just a tax that will allow people to live in the homes that they worked for much of their lives, many senior citizens can’t afford to live here in the county.
The gov. is not my daddy, or to quote,
My House is not your piggy bank.
I do not think that the budget that the county exec. presented is bare bones. To walk through some of the county office buildings, or to try to get some answers to county agency questions is an adventure in business management. I am awed by the excessive waste…and as a property manager, I cannot manage my business in the same careless fashion.
My employees have great ideas and sometimes they can solve problems better than the established ways. The fact that they are able to do so is a plus for all of us. The county, read Ex. Craig and council, should listen to its employees to find the best areas for cutting waste. I have mostly found the staff to be especially positive and filled with great info.
If you want specifics to cut, look at the capital budget. It has some pretty less than life supporting costs that ought to be cut or postponed. The libraries can close on Sunday. The schools can be re-districted and re-scheduled to allow for the most cost effective ways of use. The rec centers can be used for more more effciently, as well as the senior centers. The local churches in this county have many libraries and offer services that could help the county meet the needs of its citizens. If the need is real, it can be met. That is the beauty of capitalism. God bless! Pat
Well written articale Pat. Free hand out ‘s have been a round Harford county since at least 1953. And certainly have become away of life. be cause no one can find a solution to the problem.
more baby’s more money. it’s a 365 Day vacation with pay.Need a little cash ? just sell half of your food stamp’s. $ 50.00 Dollars for a $100.00 not a bad return.
no need to work when it’s free !
Dave I agree with you but you do not have to be Christian to have those morals or even be religious just a Human with compassion.
Patricka couple points Fines go straight to the state as they are paid to the court. Second that is not part of your civic tax contribution it is your punishment for failing to comply with the law! Fees are paid for a specific service rendered specificlly to you and again are not part of your civic duty. We could increase them to spread costs to those who use the services!
I want to know from those driving this what specific funding would you cut? Do not say waste in general or inefficiency name a specific dept and amount of money! You claim it is full of waste identify the waste!
Pat,
Are you implying that it is a shame the Aberdeen police are not allowed to racially profile people? Not sure if that’s what you mean (although I’m also not sure what else it could mean), but that sounds like an expensive lawsuit waiting to happen!
While I agree that it seems wrong to be undertaking capital projects during these times, just remember that operating funds and capital funds are separate and that capital funds often come from the state and the federal government for those specific purposes.
I agree it doesn’t seem right that those making a few cents more than the cut off are ineligible to receive assistance with rent, etc. However, I’m not sure how that translates into your argument that cutting the agencies’ budgets will not result in more people going without help. It seems that based on your statements, the agencies ought to receive more funds in order to help those that currently make a few cents too many.
I am not sure that I would argue that the county is run efficiently, and I don’t think I’ve said that. What I have said is that the current cuts the County Council just amended into the budget will force the agencies to offer less services. The libraries are already closed on Sundays, but I do agree that every agency ought to attempt to work as efficiently as possible. Churches provide wonderful services in their communities, but in many cases are unable to provide the same level of support as the county, in my opinion.
Vietnam Vet,
If you have a problem with how welfare currently works, let’s try to fix this:
Currently, it makes more sense for many on welfare to stay home and not work than to work. The “work for your welfare” program designed to get folks off welfare and into the workforce provides such low wages, that the costs to enroll your child or children in childcare are higher than what your paycheck brings in.
Cdev,
Well said. I also didn’t mean to imply that you need to be religious to have morals or compassion! In my letters to the County Council members I stated that the cuts “offend a Christian, or any other moral, sense of justice.” I have a Christian background and speak from that position, but of course anyone can have morals and a sense of justice.
Dave,
I did not say anything about racial profiling.
Crime does not have a color…bad guys are not color coded and I am sick to death of the racial profiling argument. That is not my point at all.
I know that the Aberdeen Police officers are diligent in their efforts to thwart crime all over Aberdeen. If you ask an officer what he needs to “fix” something, and he/she tells you, give it to him/her. If the dept. needs overtime to compensate the officers, chief Rudy ought to have included it in his budget. I can not say I see a need for some of the fancy police gear, swat team vehicles et al, that the chief felt necessary, but if the officers need something, then it should be in the budget.
The point I made about the police in Aberdeen being able to address issues that they find is just that, if you do a crime once, it’s a mistake. The second time, or more after that, I think that the crime deserves the time. ( Maybe a long ride out of the area would be cheaper than the overtime that court takes— a one way bus ticket to “somewhere over the rainbow”.
Payment for the damage caused by the crime and the reparation to the victim is what we need to have.
If you are arrested and convicted of a crime, you ought not be able to receive welfare or food stamps or other county/state funded benefits. I haven’t thought this through all the way, but I bet that a lot of the same thugs or ‘wannabe hoods’ that the police arrest and re-arrest would not be wondering the streets if they had to procure a job to eat and live.
I also think that the fact ( tirade coming) that so called “men” father so many children with so many different women, that the gov. chooses to pay for the care of rather than the parents of those children…again, once is understandable but how many children does a girl have before she feels she is loved?
Needed?
Worthy?
Next up, what purpose is the father if the state is paying for the child to live? I think that is wrong, too. I think that if a man sires a child, he should be married to the woman.
If they choose not to be married, then they , both mom and dad, should be sterilized if they opt for the gov/t to fund the raising of the child…I have not been blessed with the wisdom to fix this, but I thank God for the benefit my folks pounded into my head and heart that the needs of family come first.
I resent having to fund the needs of other folks families when they choose not to try to help themselves.
I resent that my kids tuition to college is not covered by my tax money but that single moms can go to school on my taxes. I don’t begrudge them their chance, just that the money that they are using to attend college comes from my taxes,
AND that by me paying taxes,
I am already funding their homes,( sec. 8 housing,) their diets, (foodstamps), bge bills fuel funds and now medical needs, too. I do think that the gov’t needs to be less involved in folks lives.
If the property taxes we pay are fair, and by fair, I mean within the fair market value, then I will be willing to pay my fair share. The problems that are current now is the forward funding of projects and the high amount of loans/bonds that the council and county exec. have approved. The interest on the loans that the county approved will be foisted onto the next two generations before they get caught up. That is a problem.
I have always been partial to a workfare program. Have a committee or agency establish guidelines concerning what a family with ratios need to live (for example, single mother with two kids needs X, a two parent household with two kids needs Y). Once this is ascertained, you go out and find a job. Make what you can and the government can subsidize the rest. In that way, you are at least trying to better your situation and you should be rewarded for doing so.
If children are the thing keeping you from working and forcing you to accept government assistance, then I would rather see my tax money going to day care services so these folks can work rather than subsidize their entire existence.
I don’t care if you are white, black, yellow, green, or orange…you should try to earn your living. And if jobs can’t be found, shovel snow or rake leaves for the community.
Ok, I would like to mention an agency that I believe is not operating at peak efficiency. I hesitate to do this, because it seems that I will be finger pointing, but that is not the case. I question why the Sheriff’s office recently paid 1 million dollars for land in Edgewood to build a Southern Precinct. Isn’t there already a southern precinct that wasn’t around 10 years or so ago? Why not renovate the one that already exists? Because it isn’t big enough and lacks many amenities is the response from the agency. I point this out as a perfect example of excess. Employees have been so accustomed to having the most and best of everything that there is no willingness at all on anyone’s part to cut back or “make do” even at the expense of other agencies. It’s always got to be the other guy who needs to tighten the belt buckle. So the building isn’t updated or big enough. Tough. If you don’t like it, quit or transfer. Who is using the precinct anyway? Shouldn’t most of the employees be officers out patrolling? Of course the million dollars is only for the land, not the building itself. All new equipment–desks, computers, etc will have to be purchased? Why not use the ones already in place? Again, not the most updated or the best. Construction is now underway for an expansion of the detention center. Wasn’t it only a few years ago that there was a previous expansion? Ok, you need a place to house inmates but how about spending the money being used for the new southern precinct to hire some new deputies to be put out on the road, not into one of the numerous new socially correct specialty units created by Sheriff Bane, then perhaps crime would be down and we wouldn’t need to expand the jail every 10 years. And just who will be staffing the jail? Everyone seems to think the Bd of Ed and Sheriff’s Department are sacred but that’s where I see serious problems of waste because they think they are untouchable. Comments?
I would’nt say there untouchable. the board of ed could reduce some of there help. they have assistant’s to assist the assistant’s. if they continue to expand the detention center. we might reach a point where we have own penitentiary.
We the people of Harford county, better get ready for some Major tax increases
Pat,
Eugenics (forced sterilization) died out as a real movement in the early 1900s. It most certainly died around WWII. The most famous proponents of eugenics were the Nazis. You are in bad company if you believe in forced sterilization, and it will be hard for anyone to take you seriously.
Realist,
That seems reasonable. A well executed program running as you say could go a long way to lift people out of poverty, making our society more productive and our government more efficient.
Blue,
Thank you for pointing out what you see as an actual example of waste. I am not familiar with the project you mention, but appreciate that you give a specific example. Citizens’ voices are probably heard and listened to the most by our elected officials when they are speaking in terms of specific projects instead of ideologies.
Pat are you willing to do with out the things those bonds pay for? Parks, New Schools notabley Bel Air High, North Harford Addutorium, AC and renovate JES, Joppatowne High Addition, Edgewood High, Patterson Mill, Which ever new ES we build? The rest of your beef is not county funded issues!
Blue I believe the South Precint you refer too runs out of a house we rent. If I am wrong and we own a well located sufficient facility then perhaps we could hold off at this point but I think we rent a house and that is the south precint.
Vietnam Vet all that would do is shift more funds in the classroom as you can not reduce the BOE budget without consent of the General Assmebly which 13 other counties tried and where rejected.
There are people who believe we shouldn’t be paying for all of this added capacity in schools without seeing the students first. For example, the capacity at Edgewood High School is going to be 55% in the next several years. Harford County isn’t going to get money back from Maryland on that. Harford County has put out a lot of money for schools over the past several years and isn’t going to get reimbursed for much of it. That translates into local taxes paying for it. Dr. Nancy Grasmick and the State Board of Education decided everyone had to have all day kindergarten with no money for extra elementary school capacity. One of many examples of how the State of Maryland mandates to the local counties and then expects them to clean up their mess and pay for it – it is wrong!! How much BRAC money is this county getting? Doesn’t look like much. Any many of the “park projects” in the next few years are slated to be built OUTSIDE the development envelope.
Edgewood appears that way but they are adding houses in the EHS attendance boundry as well as a magnet program! Further more the need to build a new HS is partially due to the age and condition of the building.
Blue and Cdev,
The Southern Precinct is actually run out of a converted 7-11 in Edgewood. There is a community policing station in Joppa that is out of a rented townhouse but it is never used. In fact, a few years ago a woman died of old age in the townhouse right next door, and nobody found her for weeks. Kind of embarassing when you’re right next door to the “Community Policing Station”.
Why do they need a new Southern Precinct? There’s no holding cell. So if you arrest somebody, you have to drive them up to the Bel Air location to process them. That means the officer is off the street that much longer.
I would argue this though, the Sheriff ran for office on the promise of building a larger police facility in Edgewood. Everybody that voted for him knew it would cost money to do. Everybody elected the current bunch of clowns because they said they would have the best schools, it takes money to do that.
Nobody voted for a candiddate (and they probably didn’t exist) that said they would cut all taxes even if it meant crappy schools. Hard decisions have to be made, I would prefer that candidate that is willing to cut funding to these groups in favor of a property tax assessment cap, but that is not what the voters of Harford County voted for. They let their politicians promise everything and get away with saying how they would do anything.
The reports of the recent tax cut say that the county council implemented a 5% across the board cut with the exception of the BOE, Community College and Sheriff. With an operating budget of about $592 Million and about half of that receving a 5% cut, that would be about a $14 million reduction. The reports say that only $5 million was cut. What is the deal here? That is really a 2% cut of general county government.
True there was a large reduction in the capital budget, but what are the real cuts that the county executive has to deal with?
Also, doesn’t it seem like David Craig took a major beating in all of this? The budgets over the last two years had record increases (remember the Billion Dollar Budget?). If Craig had proposed conservative budgets then, he could have been the one out front proposing a tax cut this year.
Now you have Billy Boniface just brutalizing Craig in public. Boniface called out Craig publicly for not being at one of the final budget sessions. He accused Craig of not being engaged. Then he accused Craig of trying to take credit for the propety tax cap reduction.
The things that Boniface and Lisanti are saying indicate that at least one of them will be challenging Craig next year. Boniface would give Craig a run for his money. If Lisanti does this, she actually has a chance to beat him. Craig had a huge opportunity and just blew it. It doesn’t even matter if he goes along with the cap reduction. He has to deal with the rate decrease. He is well on record opposing both of those measures.
One thing is for sure, either a Republican or a Democratic challenge will be very tough for Craig to beat back. On top of all that he has his spokesman Bob Thomas just antaganizing the TEA Party crowd. Sounds like the folks advising the county ex. need some real lessons in Politics 101. This has been the worst political beating ever experienced by a Harford County Executive. Never has the legislative branch been so unified against a county executive, regardless of party.
Confused,
I’m no mathematician, but I can’t get the budget numbers to mesh either! Must be politically correct mathematics or something.
I agree with you that Craig is taking a beating on this. He must be looking to move on up to Annapolis or something!
According to the Aegis, the cut was 5% of the operating budget. I say if you don’t have department heads that can run their departments only 5% leaner, then replace them with someone who can. Businesses and individuals all over this country are doing that and more and have been for awhile. If that means letting go of under performing employees, so be it. Welcome to the real world.
Hopefully, next year, ALL agencies, including BOE, sheriffs and HCC will get a thorough looking over.
This 5% cut in operating budget is on top of the cuts already asked for a month or so ago. Agency heads needed to draw up their budgets based on the original cuts (and many received large cuts in state and federal funds as well), had presented their budgets, and then were blindsided with the additional 5% cuts.
Mary Ann Lisanti’s assertion in the Aegis that a 5% cut will not result in decreased services is arrogant and uninformed. The agencies will be attempting to function under much more than 5% cuts and services will indeed be decreased. Less employees means being open less hours in less locations and it means longer wait times for anything with which you need to deal with a county agency. Is that worth your $54 tax cut (based on a $300,000 property, as reported in The Aegis)?
The assertion repeated by commenters here that anyone who gets laid off must have been under-performing or inefficient is insulting to everyone else laid off recently. If General Motors is indeed inefficient (as I think we all can agree), and a line worker gets laid off, was she inefficient and was it her fault?
Dave,
I believe it is a bigger deal than you portray “$54”. Taxpayers need to take a stand. The Government needs to and can do more or the same with less just like everyone else.
The general salary and benefit level of the County workforce is too high in relation to the salary and benefits of similar jobs in the private sector. Look through the budget detail. Go take a look at the salaries and benefits. Don’t forget to factor in the pensions, vacations, holidays, work hours, etc…
I’m glad you pointed out GM. They frankly got too fat and lazy. They let the Unions run up their labor costs so that unskliied laborers are paid exuberant salaries and pensions. The same thing is happening at all levels of workers in Government. A greater and greater percentage of Government wokers are unionized. Heck, the Harford County Sheriff doesn’t sneeze without calling Union Chief Fred Visnaw.
The DIFFERENCE between GM and Government is that when faced with reduced revenues – businesses either adapt as is the case with Ford Motors or simply go out of business, i.e. Circuit City, etc.. Governments happily go along – need more revenues to pay higher salaries or provide more services – hey lets raise taxes. Governments have no incentive to say no or be efficient because in their minds they have endless resources.
Enough is enough.
Right on, Braveheart. How many private sector jobs even offer pensions anymore? Let alone health benefits to retired employees? It’s time for government to operate in the real world with limited funds.
My daughter married a county employee and just changed her health benefits to his since the county pays a heck of a lot more of the cost than her private sector company (known for great benefits) pays for her for the same coverage. Maybe the county employees will have to pay some more for their health benefits or forgo pensions for 401K’s like most of the rest of us.
To be fair how many of those companies match 401K contributions because govt. employees do not get a match for their 401K/403b. Would you be in favor of matching?
If they did not get a pension, that would be fair. Also, make it so they cannot double dip after they retire.
In some cases there are rules about double dipping. i.e. a teacher can not retire and then work as a teacher in another county collecting a retirement and salary. They have a limit to how much they can make from public jobs while collecting a pension. The only exception is if they teach a critical need area defined by the state which is science, math and special ed.
Braveheart,
Your last comment was filled with rhetoric. These protests seem to always have sayings like “Enough is enough,” “America is a dictatorship” (What the heck are they talking about?), etc. as if your group is an oppressed minority. This couldn’t be further from the truth.
GM is a corporation looking to make money. As a consumer, I can choose whether to purchase from them or from a different company. If another company produces better cars or more affordable cars, I can choose to purchase from them and then perhaps GM will need to adjust or go out of business.
Most services provided by the government (and yes, funded by us, the taxpayers) are not services that work on a private market model. If the road in front of my apartment gets a pothole, am I expected to convince all my neighbors to donate $10 and then call a contractor to come over and fix it? If the sewer pipe bursts, I don’t comb through the yellow pages comparing rates before calling a company to come fix it. If I don’t like the fact that I can only have a certain book from the library for two weeks instead of three, I can’t go down the street to a different library to give them my “business” instead. If I see two people fighting in the street, I don’t look up a bunch of private security companies before choosing one to call.
Oh, and just how do you compare the salaries of social workers, librarians, or the cops who work in the county to the private sector?
This whole debate is false. It’s a goddamned tempest in a teacup. The reason people are so excited to have it is they’ve got loads of pent-up energy from seeing a black man in the oval office, and they need to vent. It’s like taking kids to the playground and letting them run around.
If Libertarians really want no gov’t, then let them have no roads, no plumbing, no education, and they can live like natives. Or let them start their own country, and they’ll soon realize they need roads, education, and clean water.
Who knows how it will work out or if it’s a good idea, but here’s an interesting experiment concerning teacher pay:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/education/05charter.html
Great link, Dave. I especially like the part where the teachers fill in for all the administrative jobs. And where the teachers make more than the principal. Who’s really important?? I hope they follow up with this.
Let’s be real, if teaching science paid as much as doing science and engineering, there wouldn’t be a shortage of science majors who want to teach science.
Mr. Yensan,
Thanks for that link! That’s a great program. I really wish Maryland supported Charter schools and/or the voucher program.
What’s special about charter schools is that they don’t have the same burdens of curriculum and rules about performance; they set their own performance guidelines along with the charter.
And to #85 PMS Mom, I don’t know that money is the biggest issue. Just a quick check on Salary.com tells me that teachers earn more than chemists and biologists. This isn’t conclusive, but it doesn’t look too substantially different (plus teachers get 3 months off)
The interquartile range (middle 50%) of salaries as a Chemist are recorded as:
$41,002 – $51,225 with median compensation total at 65,747 with benefits
Biologist IQR:
$40,862- $50,163 with median compensation total of $65,577 with benefits
and the IQR for Public School teachers is:
$43,879 – $58-285 with median compensation total at $71,000 including benefits.
Perhaps it isn’t about the money but about something else. Regulations, restrictions, the idea that teachers aren’t paid well, or something else. Maybe people don’t like to teach. Perhaps scientists want to do research and try to discover nuclear fusion or the like. Who knows?
Dave,
Just because you don’t agree – you see my comments as rhetoric. As I said before, I have no problem paying taxes. I expect to pay taxes. You don’t need to lecture me on fixing potholes. I’m a Forty Something that has worked with some of the best business minds in the area. I have plenty of experience judging effective business practices, budgeting in good times and bad, and leading. The County Executive could use help in all of those areas.
I stand by my facts.
Matt – your comments aren’t worth responding to.
Braveheart,
Perhaps you ought to run for office.
Patrick Teacher are 10 month employees which is two months and we are still expected to come in. The biggest insult is when my wife’s paystub says 75 hours for 2 weeks; as if her job could be done competently in 75 hours!
Cdev, I apologize about the error concerning the pay periods.
As I understand it, the teachers are paid a salary, not an hourly wage. Is this correct?
Also, I believe that most other jobs besides teachers are expected to work 12 months, give or take a couple of weeks. That is what I meant with my “3 month” comment.
I think matt needs to take a pill, and then do some research on what Libertarians believe in.
And Cdev, having the county match 401k/403b contributions instead of a pension would be a great idea. The key word is “match” – employees must contribute toward their retirement for the county to also contribute.
Phil,
I’m not positive as to how it all works, but I thought that employees paid into the system out of their paychecks for their retirement.
180 day school year compared to 260 business days in a year. Private sector employees do get some of the holidays that teachers and government employees get, but not all. Teachers do work more than the 180 days, but 80 more?
Now I see what our real budget problems are….teachers are paid too much. Fire them all and save a crap load. Make the all get real jobs that work all year and actually earn their pay. I am tied of paying this teacher welfare from my taxes.
Just for the record, the person using Dave is not me.
This blog is very interesting and I’m just watching for now.
This website & these posts are great! It’s nice to have a place to hear Harford County Citizen’s voicing their thoughts.
Yes teachers get a salary but there paystubs state a day is 7.5 hours. Phil teachers contribute to their pention now in an amount equal to the county part of the equation! Any money they put in 403b’s is there own dime.
Teachers are contracted for 190 days. Students attend school for 180 days. Additionally my wife brings home about 1 hour of work a night beyond the 9 hours she spends at school. She also easily spends 4 -6 hours on sunday grading and such as well. Just a thought that at 7.5 hours in a school day that adds up to a little more then 2 days extra of work then she is “paid” for a week.
I get it–I guess you love ignorence.
How about they tutor some of the students who fall behind or need more one on one help. It would help the rest of the students in the ones with trouble were brought up to speed in the summer or on a long break.
You want them to tutor for free in the summer? They already go into school for all sorts of other meetings for free. I guess more free work from them on their “summer off” is just as well.
The teachers who do teach summer classes are compensated quite generously for the few weeks they put in. And “put in” is about all they do. To them it is just secondary income. Please don’t go preaching to me about dedication. It’s about the $$$$.
Their salaries seem to be high enough to cover a 12 month work year. that does not include benefits that most in the private sector could only dream of. Sometimes alittle more is required to do a job right. If a teacher does not like the pay, or the hours, or the work enviroment, they are more then free to join the few of us left not receiving a pay check from a government agency.
I think most of us who are made about the tax cut and outrage is that with the exception of a small few not one of the angry people can cite the exact thing they think should be cut. I asked on multiple threads and only 1 person gave one example of what should be cut. When you do this and just spread the cut with no plan as to what should be cut you get a library closing like we have in Fallston.
As for teachers pay I have an idea. We can pay each teacher what they are worth. Every teacher would recieve a minimal base salary. From then on they would recieve on top of it .5 % of each students salary they taught for the rest of their life. This would be in keeping with competitive bidding. Good teachers would make more for turning out more successful students. Surely we all value our education and wouldd like to pay those back. After the death of the teacher the money would go to fund the school system the individual who pays it lives in and that would eliminate school budgets.
So if I receive an education through HCPS and become wildly successful, even the few completely worthless teachers (I won’t name names) that I suffered through would receive a portion of my substantial income? Not gonna happen.
The teachers don’t bid on the students to select the very best – it’s many times the luck of the draw – so the best teachers don’t necessarily make the most successful students. The best teachers can make their students more successful than they would otherwise be, but the most successful students can sometimes overcome lesser teachers to rise to the top.
Cdev
Sir/Ma’am
First, there was no tax cut.. My taxes were not cut, the tax increase that I and every other resident in Harford County sustained was reduced by approximately 2 cents per 100 dollars of assessed value. I do appreciate that reduction but it does not offset the 7 cents per 100 dollar fo assessed value that my taxes were increased.
As for which projects to cut. The Harford County Budget is not the basis for a reality TV show. Residents don’t get to vote on which projects survive and which are voted off. We get to vote for the County Executive, County Council, Sheriff and soon the School Board. Once they are elected, we should expect them to develop sound management plans, including the budget, which the County requires to operate.. This years budget was not a sound document, neither was last years. The result is that Harford County suffered.
The present circumstances now require the County Executive and the Executive Branch to review all County operations and develop a plan to meet Harford County’s continuing requirements, and get us out of this mess.
I certainly hope that this plan is better than the budget.
Phil I thought you would like the idea of merit pay because that is merit pay. I agree with your logic that good teachers make students better but……that would increase pay. Very similar to the NCLB legislation logic. For a good parody look up no dentist left behind.
No John the tax rate stayed the same….the value of your property went up but you never had your taxes increased just the amount you pay in the end because your property is worth more. If the govt. eminate domained your land you would be saying they appraised it to low!
So now the rate has gone down! That is a tax cut!
Funny John….they are reviewing the budget and decided to close it and you are questioning what they decide is best. SO I am asking you as a citizen of Harford county, who championed a smaller budget to explain exactly what you think needs cut that they can legally cut? If you want to cut taxes fine but what is going to go in your opinion. Some us where willing to pay for the same level of service you advcated less service so now as a citizen I want you to tell me and other citizens what it is specificlly you think should go that is legally allowed to go. I did not scream at County Council meetings ranting about cutting taxes and saying there is waste….YOU DID….so tell me what must go! Don’t say it is comeone elses job and complain about there decision which you where instrumental in forcing their hand. If the library in Fallston closes along with the BCo library that was just over the line that closed and these people can not get books etc. You caused it.
Cdev,
The county can start by not buying new trucks and equipment every year. I have rarely notice and dump truck , small truck, or piece of heavy equipment that the county owns to be more than a year or two old. Also, purchases like Tudor Hall, a bailout for the previous owners, should end. County vehicles that travel to the homes of employees in the far reaches of the county should also end.
To all readers;
Beware of anything Cdev posts. He has a habit of presenting incomplete information and inaccurate facts. Whenever, I’ve researched a point and presented real facts, Cdev fails to respond.
The facts are that the Harford County Budget has increased from approximately $420 million in 2005 to $610 million in 2009 – a 45% increase. Politicians have no incentive to stop spending when they believe they have unlimited revenue sources.
I believe Cdev is either a socialist or an overpaid Government employee afraid that his gravy boat may be drying up.
fact is that the proposed budget from last year to this was the same. I am not a socialist and do not work for the govt. I am a educator in a private program for kids with severe special needs.
Joe thanks for listing specific items not just yelling govt waste and no specific complaints.
Cdev,
You ignore the facts…
You obviously have no experience in business management….
You continually propose the TYPICAL GOVERNMENT MANTRA – “IF IT WAS SPENT LAST YEAR, WE GOTTA SPEND IT AGAIN THIS YEAR”. Such nonsense….
This Country, State, and County need a good dose of “zero based budgeting” and a complete review and revision of all Government compensation and benefits packages.
Cdev
Sir/Ma’am
True the Residential Property Tax Rate of $1.08 per $100 dollars of assessed value has not changed. The “value” of all property in Maryland has increased through the assessment process, combined with the taxe rate and the homestead tax credit, which has increased property taxes. The nuance in the discussion is the Constant Yield Rate. This is the rate that allows the Taxing Authority, in this case Harford County, to capture the same revenue from property taxes as they did the previous year. The Constant Yield Rate in Harford County for FY 2010 was $.99 per $100 of assessed value. This Constant Yield Rate is specifically identified in the State Department of Assessment and Taxation as a method of providing relief, to property owners, frome rising property assessments. The County Executive could very well have used the Constant Yield Rate to construct his budget, which would have provided the same revenue as last year, and provided relief to property tax payers. Obviously he elected not to, and taxed at the full rate for his budget, thus raising revenues and property taxes. The actions of the County Council to reduce the tax increase are very welcome, but still do not offset the tax increase.
Pursuing individual budget projects with you would be counterintuitive. You,as do we all, have pet projects that are must fund in our individual minds. I would rather look at the totality of the budget and the process used to arrive at the final figures. Although the budget is balanced, i.e. total revenues equal total expenditures, there is no balance in the budget.
For example. In the Capital Budget, last year, FY 2009 the highway budget was $16M, FY 2010 it is $32M. Parks and Recreation Budget FY 2009 was $29M FY 2010 is $10M. Somehow the balance between the two years is missing. There can be no justification for a starvation budget one year and a feast the next. Balance in the budget would dictate that there is a consistent application of revenue to support continous operations.
To suggest that I caused the closure of a library branch is perposterous. A more reasonable thought process might lead to a conclusion that there is really no quantfiable analysis for any budget decision in the Executive Branch. Therefore, when revenues are reduced, taxes are raised, employees are furloughed, and yes in some cases services are reduced, to overcome adeficit caused by seredipitous planning. In the case of the library closing I would suggest that you go back to the Executive Branch and question why the library should be affected. If you are satisfied with the answer, then ask why a particular brach was selected over all others.
Finally, If the reduced revenues from property taxes causes a more thorough analysis of budget requirements, to support coninuous operations, then there is a definite benefit to Harford County
Braveheart: You are so right about “if we have it, spend it”. Agencies are terrified that if they don’t spend all of their $$$, it will be cut the next year. Thus, every June, you see tremendous amounts of money completely wasted on frivolous items. I remember my friend telling me about an expensive calligraphy set she ordered on the county’s dime so she could do her daughter’s wedding invitations. “They had to spend it on SOMETHING”, was her response when I asked how she could in good conscience spend her agency’s money like that. Multiply that by god knows how many county employees and there’s your problem.
COrrect barveheart I do not run a buisness and have no experience doing so; but I doubt everyone else does either. Why did the capital budgets change? Maybe a particular project was done and some other agency has a need for a a bigger project. Again simply name some things that should go. You suggest a review. Well you do not trust the county exectutive to do the review so why not you?
John,
I appreciate your insight and thoughtful responses. You are very helpful in understanding the tangled web of Government that we currently have.
Cdev,
In this Country we all have the right to speak our minds. I simply like to know who I’m dealing with. I just find it incredulous that you continually mistate the facts. I’m trying to understand if you are doing so dishonestly to push an agenda.
Why would you assume that no one else has any business experience because you don’t. I’ve been involved in business for 20 years building, analyzing, and managing budgets and business departments. I’m sure many other participants in these conversations share similar experiences..
If you have questions about the increase in the budget from $420 million to $610 million as you should. Take the time to review the facts for yourself. they should be public record.
Lastly, I have no confidence in Mr Craig. As evidenced by the outragious increases in our County budget and irresponsible accross the board salary increases he has handed out – why should I trust him to manage anything. I personally do not know Mr. Craig. However, I see the facts and I see what he has done. It is OBVIOUS that he has no fiscal responsibility and that his background as a school teacher and lightweight administrator have not prepared him for the challenges of a County Executive. As demonstared during the budget crises – he also lacks the leadership necessary to make the tough decision.
I bet you if you asked County Employees (not Department Heads), Teachers (not Administrators) where to cut and save money I guarantee you they would have some excellent ideas. Many ideas don’t ever get vetted and too many employees live in fear of losing their job especially if speaking out would implicate a manager. I have worked in the University of Maryland system and over the past 10 years, there was a trend toward creating high paying management positions. Many of these people were hired and basically spent their time going to meetings and thinking of things for other people to do to justify THEIR existence. Many of those tasks were done just fine before without having someone stand (or sit in this case) and make sure that particular job was executed.
As an aside, one of the candidate’s for the superintendents job (who didn’t get it), said exactly what an earlier post said. Much of the money in the school system gets spent later in the year to justify budget for next fiscal year.
Braveheart I know we have the right to speak our mind. I never said you didn’t. Nor would I say you don’t. Just as I have the right to speak my mind. No I am not a paid govt. lackey who hides in basements and posts on message boards to push an agenda. I honestly believe that while I don’t like to pay taxes they are needed. I think in this case we are paying a reasonable amount and if we all want them lowered that is fine but we all must understand that in doing so we will sacrifice the level of service and pay more in usage fees to accomplish this. I like the level of service and am willing to pay for that. I do not use all of the services but the ones I do not use others do and it all evens out in the end.
I am not saying no one else does (Have any buisness experienc) I said that there are plenty of others that do not and not having buisness experience does not qualify me to speak on the subject of paying taxes and understanding the county budget. I agree an accountant might have more to offer but we all have something to offer.
I have asked serveral times for people to point out services they would eliminate. Only one or two have some have said they just want a review of the budget which is the point and fine but reviewing the budget after public hearings is not the way to go about this. Some people got involved then but many people waited until after the two public hearings to actually say something and demanded a change. Where were these people when their input was asked for?
I am all for cutting taxes but do it responsibly. Those who say they had a tax increase are not being totally honest. The tax rate stayed exactly the same. The value of their asset went up so they pay more money in taxes in relation to what they paid. So while they pay more money they have more inherent value just as if they made more money from one year to the next and payed more income tax at the same rate. That is not a tax increase. If it was my taxes have been increased ever since I started working.
Govt. requires you to participate and be proactive. If you are concerned about the budget go to the public hearings, review the drafts, send e-mails with tactful input. That is the time to offer positive suggesttions so that your input can be taken into consideration. Do not show up at the council meeting where they plan on approving the budget for the first time and expect to be heard. I was fortunate enough to get a seat inside for the meeting where the lady stormed out expecting to get to speak. That is coming to the table to late and expecting to get your way. I am more disappointed with the fact that out of the blue some (not all) people are expecting to get a tax break in a manner that was not planned for. This will lead to poorly planned cuts like closing a library branch not a well executed reduction in things that will have little impact like ordering less pens and using less paper or reducing the cost of energy uses in buildings by changing light bulbs.
Bring on the usage fees! During difficult economic times, If a service is nonessential to the public well-being, it should be paid for by those who use it.
I can see that there are some who want the government to be the provider of all that we want or need and to distribute the services and payments from each according to their ability and to each according to their need. Hmm, that sounds familiar.
To beat an old familiar drum, a smaller government is usually a better government. On the local, state and (especially) the federal levels. ours is waaaay too big, and the trick is to downsize it far enough to make it efficient without going so far as to subject the citizens to undue hardships. I think we have far to go, while others can’t wait to pile it higher and deeper.
I do not disagree with usage fees but when they get prohibitively expensive is a problem a dog liscence for example is $8 for a fixed dog. Not unreasonable and funds needed services for pets in this county but the govt ponies up some one thing you might see is the elimnation of the senior discount or the increase to an even $10. This is similar to what happened with ez-pass. You might see an increase in the dump fee or a fee attatched to senior centers or an increase in rec council fees. THis will drive up many things. as long as we are ready for that it is fine but those that think lower taxes are going to simply result in buisness as usual with no adverse side effects (I have spoken to people that believe that) they need a reality check.
Maybe John M. can answer this question but something I have learned lately from a friend of mine is that they don’t pay Maryland State Income taxes. He is in the military and has been stationed here on/off for 15 years. They pay taxes in another state they only lived in for 2 years and are still legally residents there. How many military families do that and it makes you wonder with that going on and the tax breaks for the companies, how much tax revenue are we really getting from these military projects.
Cdev,
Whatever your points are – please report them accurately. You routinely do not. I’ll be investigating your facts and will report the truth.
The facts are that the Harford County Budget has increased from approximately $420 million in 2005 to $610 million in 2009 – a 45% increase. Politicians have no incentive to stop spending when they believe they have unlimited revenue sources.
My property taxes have increased from less than $1,700 in 1997 to greater than $3,500 in 2009. You can slice and dice it any way you want but it is clearly a tax increase.
OPEN YOUR EYES AND LOOK AT NATIOANL REAL ESTATE VALUES. OVER INFLATED – JUST LIKE OUR PROPERTY TAXES.
Government had no right to increase our taxes at such a rate to start with. Clearly a lack of fiscal responsibility by the County Executives and the rest of our politicians.
We are now involved whether you like it our not. Government has been living on our dime for too long when it should have been a nickle! Be ready for a cut in your services.
This whole arguement boils down to this – just because my house is assessed at a certain value by a state paid assessor, doesn’t mean I can sell it for that amount. Also, my property value may increase, but my income has not, and this is why the whole thing hurts.
We all know that the 1996 Fair Housing Act that bullied Sallie Mae into creating mortgages for people who didn’t previously qualify is the root cause of most of this. Why? There was a large influx of people able to buy homes on specialized mortgage programs. More demand means the price goes up – not that the property is suddenly better – it’s a supply and demand problem.
Now that the whole thing has blown up and there is so little demand, the actual value cannot drop because the banks have too much invested. So those of us who are responsible citizens, who kept our 30 year mortgage, didn’t refinance and increase our mortgage amounts, etc., are paying the piper for this bit of real estate roulette via the mirage of a higher property value and a house that could never be unloaded for its assessed value.
For example – my house and 6 acres in Fallston was assessed at 170k in 1998, assessed at 420k in 2005 — isn’t that a REDICULOUS and unrealistic increase? Now the truth is I can’t sell my house for 420k now – I can sell it for MAYBE 290k, but I’m paying taxes on the 130k difference. Ok, maybe I should have sold when the market was hot and gotten the 420k price, but where would I live?! I couldn’t afford the mortage on a house to replace what I already have, even with the huge amount of money down.
It’s folks like us – stable and settled that are the backbone of the economy, and we’re taking it in the shorts. This is why people are upset over their taxes. The housing bubble has burst – send out the assessors to re-evaluate the property values and give everyone a fair baseline. The banks may not like it, but that is between the banks and their mortgage holders; the taxpayers deserve fair treatment on this.
And YES I would pay out of pocket for a new assessment. And YES, I have gone through the appeals process on my assessment and the only decrease I received was based on property that was improperly categorized as residential but didn’t perk. Otherwise, it’s a hard, hard fight.
Brave heart let’s talk about accuracy. WHile I do not doubt you are using real numbers you need to look at the numbers from the same period of time you used 1997-now for your property taxes (by the way that includes two huge realestate bubbles) but use 2005-2009 for the budget. Looking at the proposed decrease in the budget before the high jacking that was a substatntial portion of increase, not the whole thing but a good first step. Also consider the value of the dollar from 2005-2009 was halved during then thanks to the Bush rebates that resulted in the let’s just print more money and devalue our currency attitude. Yes a reduction in the budget is good; but you wanting to rewind back to 2005 in one step is not practical especially with energy costs as they are. I am sure the value of your house is more then the assesed value. If your home was eminate domained you would be screaming the assesment is to low.
Cdev,
My point for presenting the huge increase from the end of 2005 – $420 Million to $610 Million in 2009 – is to educate readers on just how OBNOXIOUS, IRRESPONSIBLE and OUT OF CONTROL our POLITICIANS ARE!
The Days of $420 Million are probably over in Harford County unless there is a Depression. However what we can do as Taxpayers is FIGHT, KICK and SCREAM for these drunkin sailors to keep things in check.
Let me point out some more facts for you. The US Census reports Harford County Population of 211,000 in 1997 and 240,000 in 2008, a 13.7% increase. Yet over the same time period the number of full time equivalent employees in Harford County increased from 1,446 to 1,900 – a 31% increase. Oh and the budget increased from $253 Million to $610 Million – a $357 Million dollar increase or 141%.
Let me tell ya something. The Politicians are gonna face a Tidal Wave of Angry Taxpayers. Harford County has a strong tradition of independent, hard working citizens, who long for limited government.
Oh – nice working Bush into your comments. Us Center Right Thinkers were just as dissapointed with the Republicans lack of fiscal responsibility. However – we see where your man is taking us and we don’t like it much.
Braveheart,
I like the way you think.
I was thinking the exact same stuff as I read Cdev’s last comment. We are certainly fighting an uphill battle, but hopefully we will succeed in taking our County, State, and Country back from the bureaucracy that currently sits in seats of power.
Maybe the upcoming election will see the end of two party politics? Perhaps a libertarian candidate will win a senate seat? Who knows, but that is a step in the right direction.
Celebrate your Independence at a 4th of July Tea Party in Downtown Bel Air! Stay tuned for more details!
I’m all in and it is already on my calender!
First off Obama is not my man I am not a democrat. I am a registered republican, although I bet you will try to have me purged in a moment like Wayne Gilchrist.
Next inflation happens over time, unfortunatley due to the lack of fiscal responsibility and inability to balance a budget (which we had); the decreased taxes and increased spending lead to a large scale devaluation of the dollar. What it used to buy particularly in imported goods it no longer does. SInce most of our goods we buy come from over seas our dollar is worthless.
I agree that in light of the depression we are in (or soon will be after a few more quarters) means more fiscal constraint. You can not expect that to occur over night. Craig proposed a budget that was less then the previous year and had some cuts in it. By demanding more we are not going to get responsible well thought out cuts we are going to get drastic, knee jerk reactionary cuts that may not be the best idea. I believe that those asking for change got what they wanted originally since the budget was cut. Your tax rate was cut on your home that is worth more then it was in 2005. In 2005 a town house in Abingdon broke the 200K cieling. That same town house was appraised for a refi in 2009 at 240K. Nationally the realestate picture is much worse then it is here. That same town house was assessed at 160K and 175K respectively both are less then the actual value of the asset. Either way the asset went up in value so the homeowner pays more money in taxes at a lower rate.
I am for responsible taxes but that means responsible cuts not knee-jerk, last minute reactions.
For the record in the primary I voted for Ron Paul and wrote him in the general election as well!
I really find it hard to believe you that you follow the same beliefs as Dr. Paul. He calls for minimalist government, while you are happy paying more taxes every year, regressive as they may be.
Dr. Paul calls for fewer services to be offered by government, but you want more…
If you really believe in smaller government and personal liberty, quit belly-aching about tax cuts and take part in the Campaign for Liberty or the Tea Parties that have been going on since April.
🙂
Well said!
I find Dr. Paul to my liking, in fact I even backed it up financially! I am not for taxes I amjust think tax cuts and budget reductions need to be handled responsibly! Jumping out of the wood work like lunes, which is what many but not all of the people involved did is not responsible. Why did these people who felt so strongly not bother to get involved in the process when there opinion was asked? If they had shown up at the budget meetings then the budget cuts would have been handled in a responsible manner instead of a reactive manner; which will not be the best outcome we would not have public library branches being closed, and many other things people have relied on just snatched from them but people would have had time to make sufficient plans. What happened would be more equivicable to if the county had raised taxes 2 weeks before they got collected and said come up with the difference in 2 weeks or else!