Since when does getting an 85% on a math test earn you an A?
Or a score of 72% get you a B?
Or even better, when does getting half of the questions wrong on a test give you a passing grade of D?
It is possible. But first, you’d have to be a middle school student in Harford County Public Schools. Then you’d have to be in certain classes in certain schools. In the end, it comes down to the luck of the draw, because there is no rhyme or reason to where math grades are being curved in the county’s public middle schools. And when the problem was discovered and presented to HCPS Supervisor of Mathematics Sarah Morris, she told the schools that each of their math departments should decide whether to curve or not to curve. After that dodge, she may as well have added “Let them eat cake.”
The discrepancies among, and even within some of the nine middle schools in Harford County, seem to stem from a set of contradictory instructions.
First, the teachers’ guides to the University of Chicago School Mathematics Project (UCSMP) math books being used in county middle schools encourage teachers to curve grades as follows:
85 to 100 =A
72 to 84 = B
60 to 71 = C
50 to 59 = D
0 to 49 = F
This scale is accompanied by the following explanation:
“Such a low curve alarms some teachers, but students in the UCSMP courses generally learn more mathematics overall than students in comparison classes. We believe that the above grading policy rewards students fairly for work well done.”
As rationalizations go, that one deserves a C, but let’s give it a B in keeping with the spirit of the curve.
The teachers’ guide continues:
“Some teachers have said our suggested grading scale is too easy. Maybe they have better students. They simply raise our scale. Why? Must every class have D students? Wouldn’t it be nice if all students got As?”
It would be even nicer if all students got the grades they earned.
The HCPS curriculum guide from 1999 supports this nonsense with a similar “conversion chart” and even instructs teachers to change the number grades on tests and quizzes in their grade books and on students’ papers, potentially making the curve difficult to detect.
Apparently, the curve was later dropped from the updated curriculum guide, leaving conflicting instructions for teachers and schools. So, it’s easy to see how the problem may have come about.
No matter how or why it happened, the solution has to be county-wide. Either UCSMP tests should be curved (that is, if you buy the explanation in the teachers’ guide) or they should not be curved, in all Harford County public middle schools. If individual schools make this decision unilaterally, uniformity is left to chance. So, direction has to come from the top.
But according to information obtained by The Dagger, the problem wasn’t even detected until it was brought to the attention of school-based personnel in March. When Math Supervisor Sarah Morris was later contacted regarding the need for consistency countywide, Morris responded that the decision to curve or not to curve was up the math department at each school.
That might solve the problem within schools, but it provides no guidance as to which direction the schools should go and virtually guarantees the inequity among schools will be perpetuated. Not the kind of answer you would expect from Morris, who sat on the HCPS Grading & Reporting Ad Hoc Committee, which issued a report saying uniform grading policies need to be established to “ensure equitable grading practices from teacher to teacher and from school to school”.
Patterson Mill Middle/High School parent Sue Schindler feels the impact as both a middle school math teacher and as the parent of a middle school student in a math class where grades are not being lifted by a curve. To her credit, Schindler is speaking out after learning that reasonable attempts to get answers from Morris had failed. She said “As a teacher, I’m upset that we can’t get a definitive answer. As a parent, I’m ticked off because my child is not being treated the same as other kids in this county”.
There are plenty of reasons why grades matter, but given the number of competitive high school magnet programs in Harford County, middle school grades take on added meaning here. If you need an A in math to get into the Aberdeen Science and Math Academy, shouldn’t that A mean something? And shouldn’t it mean the same thing, no matter which middle school a student comes from?
My guess is that most teachers curve grades on occasion; it is regular policy at my daughter’s prep school. If no one gets an A on a test, the top grade becomes the A for the class, and all other grades are adjusted accordingly.
Is it advertised that the teachers curve grades? I doubt it. Do most teachers everywhere curve grades? Probably.
I think this is a non-issue.
Once again, we wonder why American students lag behind the rest of the world. It is a little thing called standards. Instead of keeping them high in order to maintain the definition of excellence, we lower them to include more into the definition. Excellence in our schools is becoming a watered-down demographic. The mind set seems to be “allow everyone to pass, allow many to receive A’s” instead of “if you want an A, work for it.”
Amazing. Truly amazing. The way this seems to be going, there will become 2 grades….A’s and B’s. No one fails and everyone achieves, whether you have the skills or not.
Sheesh…and coming on the heels of a proposed idea that 50% be the lowest grade you can get for NOT completing work and HCC’s report that our kids can’t function at the college level. GEE…I wonder why?
Why are we dumbing down our educational system? I fail to believe that the kids are “less smart” than my generation. Is it the policy makers just trying to fiddle with the numbers so we look better? Is it the parents who want their kids to get an A whether they deserve it or not?
Regardless of who is to blame, all we are doing is promoting generations of those who feel good because they have achieved, but don’t have the corresponding skills. Sad, truly sad.
Let’s call this what it is: grade inflation. OK here’s some real math. In a typical classroom the grade distribution would fall something like this: A=10%, B=20%, C=40%, D=20%, F=10%. So about half the students are “average”. This assumes that each grade has a 10 point spread: 90+ is an A, 80-90 B, etc. Under the UCSMP system, There is a 15 point spread for A’s and another 12 points for B’s. So my guess is that you would have about 40-50% of the students making B or better. WOW, I bet most parents will love the Chicago math because those long suffering math students are suddenly making A’s and B’s. It’s a miracle!
I went to the public hearing on the grading committee and somehow this never came up as a reason for a countywide grading system. Why can’t HCPS tell us parents the truth about what is going on in our schools??
This is why HCPS should use nationally based standardized tests (like Baltimore City does). Then we would see how we’re really doing. Clearly grades in HCPS school don’t mean much.
Another solution is to use P and F. You pass the class or fail it. You pass the grade based on your MSA scores or fail the grade. In all fairness though AP tests and college grades are norm refrenced and curved as well for example on the 1999 AP Bio test statistics on Multiple choice show that kids who ranged from 63-79 (out of 119) all got 3’s or better which is passing that is slightly more then half. Kids who got 46-62 correct 88.3% of them got a 3 or better. So essentially on that test you could get less then half correct and still pass. AP equates 3 as a C and passing.
I don’t have a problem with grading on a curve for highly challenging High School courses. Yes, AP tests are graded on a curve. When you have several thousand scores, it’s pretty easy to get a normal distribution. But what U. Chicago is proposing is NOT grading on a curve. Or should I say the curve you get won’t be a normal distribution bell curve. You’ll get a skewed curve with more than 50% of the students getting A’s and B’s and very few students geting D’s and E’s. Is this what we really want for Middle School math students. How is this preparing these students for more demanding math?? This isn’t Lake Wobegone where all the children are above average.
Looking back at the U. Chicago suggested grade scale, HCPS parents might be interested in knowing that the John Carroll (not the prep school my daughter attends) grade scale is A 90% and up, B 80% to 89%, C 75% to 79%, D 70% to 74%, F 69% and below. That is kind of a shocker for kids moving from public to private high school in Harford County.
The U. Chicago scale appears to be a suggestion, which would not be a true curve. I still think curving on a test by test basis is common. Thank God my chemistry professor in college curved 100 years ago.
Back when I was in school, many moons ago, teachers frowned upon curving anything. If you wanted an A, you worked for it. If you put in minimal effort, you got a C. If you messed around in class and did nothing, you got an F. What is wrong with that? Why do we need curving? Again, are today’s kids “dumber” than my generation of students? Or is it because we cannot allow students to see where they really fall in the educational spectrum? Are parents afraid to handle the truth that not all kids are getting into Harvard? There has to be something behind this move towards curving. I would tend to think that it has to do with politics, parenting, and today’s generation of students taking responsibility for their academic performance, or lack thereof.
Judy. Good points, but I disagree on a very important point when yousay that this is a non-issue. I think that this is a very big issue if for no other reason than one given in the story: One’s Middle School math grade is a criterion for certain selective placements, such as being able to attend the Science and Math Academy or a magnet program. So curving that is applied unevenly could easily result in unfairness, For example, John from Middle School X and Mary from Middle School Y each do the same work and each get a raw 85 for the marking period. But because Middle School X applies a curve and Middle Y does not, John gets an A and Mary gets a B. John is eligible for the Science and Math Academy, and Mary is not.
Don’t you find it to be incredibly unfair and ill-conceived to apply a curve in one school and not another? One can argue for or against curving, and that’s fine; but it must be applied (or not applied) uniformly. I believe that once HCPS gives this real thought, that they should correct it immediately. And frankly, it’s appalling that they have NOT given it any thought; or its appalling if they did give it thought and did nothing about it. Thanks.
Realist. I do not think kids today are dumber. They are being asked to do more then when any of us went to school. For example the grad requirements in MD in 1996 required 4 english credits, 3 math, 3 social studies and 2 science. Then there where the simple functional tests. The testing requirement is harder and they have 4 english 3 math (4 in harford), 3 social studies and 3 science credits. Middles school requires more then it used to require.
I think the big thing is that the grading needs to be consistent. I also think selective programs like S&M should have a test all the applicants take to help correct for differences in grading. No matter what you do it will never be perfectly standard.
The JC scale is interesting because the intervals are very random. It too would skew grades towards the top. Further more I do not think this says curve the final grade in the class simply the tests. Correct me if I am wrong.
I would love to know which schools because my daughter is in 7th grade and at her school there is no learning curve – especially in math. If she wants an A, shes got an earn an 90 or better – PERIOD! And I disagree with the pass or fail based on the MSA testing because all the kids I talked to said the MSA testing is a joke. Even some of the teachers find it to be stupid. I really agree with the statement made by Parent, Taxpayer and Businessman in regards to 2 different students, each getting graded differently and their eligibility for the SMA. My daughter really wants to attend SMA and she works her butt off to get the grades so she can apply next year when she is in 8th grade for the 9th grade year. It is very unfair to think she has worked her butt off and someone who hasnt worked as hard as she has but gets grades like she does because of a curve can take her dream away from her.
Cdev, I don’t think the kid getting the 74 at JC would agree that it skews the grades up. It makes it much easier to get Ds and Fs and they don’t sugar coat it and give Es–whatever those are.
My argument that it is a non-issue is that teachers do curve. They just don’t advertise it. If everything has to be equal, then we’ll need departmental tests, equal grade breakdowns, etc. I don’t think any of us would want that though I think the BOE is looking at standardized grade breakdowns. If I were a math teacher (I am not) and I made up a test that I later discovered did not fairly measure what I taught and everyone bombed it, I would want to curve it. Perhaps I would make up another test; perhaps I would throw out the first one. It would be nice to not have big brother in my gradebook.
Additionally, I don’t think the SMA is so competitive that a bit lower grade in a class is going to sway the decision. If I remember correctly, the 8th grade math teacher has to recommend a student for the SMA and that letter would/could certainly reflect the teacher’s standards and the student’s abilities. The committee that selects SMA students also is certainly aware that all math (and any other subject as well) teachers are not created equally. Equal grading scales are not going to make everything perfectly equal; there are too many variables in the classrooms. Some teachers are really easy graders. How are you going to change that?
Many of the students who started at the SMA and are graduating this year weren’t even in the highest math level in middle school; half of them had to take geometry over the summer. I don’t know what the current numbers are, but I don’t think admission is so cutthroat that curving will impact anything.
Cdev, it’s my understanding that the curve is primarily used in HCPS for tests, but I don’t know if anyone can say for sure. The curve found in the 1999 HCPS curriculum guide is for both tests and quizzes. The UCSMP teachers’ guide is a little fuzzy on this point and seems to recommend the curve for most, if not all graded work.
Admission to the SMA is difficult. They take 50 students per year out of like 300 or more applicants. You need recommendations from teachers, science, math and language arts. You must be enrolled in geometry and able to successfully complete it in 8th grade. You must write an essay, and yes your 7th grade and 1st quarter 8th grade grades matter. If you arent at a certain grade point average, you are not considered – so the curve does matter. The testing comes down to this, especially in math, you either know the answer or you dont. In Alegebra, there is one answer to the question, and the teacher making up the test knows there is only one answer to the problem. If three people get it right, and 10 dont, then obviously the three who did deserve the credit and the 10 who didnt dont. There is no easy grading on that. It comes down to what I said, either you know the answer or you dont. And if you dont, you dont deserve the higher grade.
Judy very good point. Many teachers curve and no matter how many rules about grades you make. Things such as Extra Credit, lax grading standards, weighting of assignments etc. all come into play. Do we want to totally depower our teachers of the ability to make compassionate decisions? If we do then we need to understand that we are essentially saying we do not trust your judgement and that a CHimpanzie should be able to do your job.
I once had a World History Teacher in a LARGE HS (enrollment 3,200). He was a very difficult grader. an A in his class was gold. meanwhile many other World History Teachers graded much easier. WHen I registered for 11th grade I could have taken Honors US history and had an easy grader or AP and had him. I chose the later even though I got C’s in his AP class instead of easy A’s. In the end the knowledge was more important to me.
The JC grading system is not going to help the C/D student it does help the 92-90 student and 84-80 student who in the traditional 7 point scale would have gotten lower grades but because the space was opened up at the top it made A’s and B’s more achievable.
I heard some years they have not offered the Summer Algebra 1B session. That said getting in is tough. I wonder if some of these students hedged their bets with the IB program?
No surprise to us – this is just one of the reasons why we opted out of HCPS ten years ago and chose to homeschool 5 of our 8 kids…
Judy,
I respectfully submit the following for your consideration.
I believe that your arguments break down as follows:
1) You say that it is a non-issue because ALL teachers implicitly curve – That may be, or it may not be. You or I have no way of knowing that. That is, at best, a blind supposition, based on, by definition, a limited sampling of experience and hearsay. But, for the sake of argument, let’s assume you’re correct. Then what we have is all teachers implicitly curving, and some teachers both implicitly AND explicitly curving. That is still a very unlevel playing field in a public school system, and needs to be corrected.
2) Your second argument rests on an easily refuted premise: that admission to the Science and Math Academy is not very competitive. In post #13, “Confused” posts a very succinct refutation of that premise (although the number of applications last year were lower than was stated).
3) You fail to take any other situations into account where middle school grades might be used as criteria for post-middle school placement (such as magnet programs or Harford Tech). It is a fact that the grades are one of the criteria, period. That fact alone is a compelling argument for curving guidelines that apply to all schools.
Thanks for your comments.
How about the students who can’t get into Harford Tech? There were over 600 applications this year for 275 spots. If some schools are grading on a curve, then it may also be impacting GPA for admission there. I don’t really know what other criteria Harford Tech uses or if everything is weighted equally, but I would think it could make a difference.
Sorry about the number – I did actually mean to type 100 or more apply to the SMA each year. I guess it was my dumbness for not proofreading, but I still stand firm in my belief that a grading curve is a disadvantage to my daughter getting into that school. If you check out the official website of the SMA, it states exactly the criteria to enter the school. Your GPA matters, period. And if another student from another school is not as capable as my daughter but is getting the same grades because of a curve – that really concerns me. I however disagree that every teacher has some kind of learning curve. I have had too many discussions with too many teachers who are by the book period, no interpretation, no anything.
A couple things
Confused how do you know your child’s school/teacher is not one grading on a curve? I am not saying they are but have you asked the teacher, department chair or principal?
I think (I may be wrong) but grades for Harford Tech get you an interview and then the Interview is the big factor. Although I would again encourage people to look at the IB program as a viable alternative to SMA and future lawyers taking up harford tech slots in auto mechanics and cosmotology. I hear from a nieghbor welding is fairly easy to get into.
100 applications for 50 spots is not particularly competitive, but I do understand the concern for middle school grades and some consistency within the system. The point that I am trying to make is that I don’t think you can make it consistent. A teacher with 35 years of experience tests, evaluates, and grades differently than the 50 percent of Harford County teachers with less than five years of experience. If a student consistently has inexperienced or even bad teachers, what can you do if the grades suffer?
Students who are in the higher grouping for math and English may have harder assignments and their grades may reflect the challenge even though the transcript may not. But are they learning more? The essays students write and references students have to get for the SMA (I know nothing about the other programs in the county) should show a higher level of learning even if the grades are not as high. Test scores also appear on transcripts, so those selecting students for the SMA can see if a student’s grades match test scores. Those making the selections are probably becoming more and more familiar with how well prepared students are coming from different middle schools across the county. They also want a mix of students from various schools, so a student with lower grades may get in if his/her school doesn’t have many applicants (get ready for college folks, this is the name of the game).
I would also suggest that people look very carefully at the SMA before charging in and thinking it is the end-all be-all. People who are there now are not thrilled with many of the teachers and see a real power struggle between the administration and the SMA. They don’t say anything for fear of retribution. When it first opened, HCPS management bragged in public that HCPS didn’t have to put a dime into it (this of course was not entirely true, but a shocking statement none the less). If you live anywhere but Aberdeen, the commute really stinks; some kids get on the bus around six.
And I would still argue that you can’t get real consistancy. A teacher has a lot of flexibility in how he/she runs a classroom and that is the way it should be. I would argue that we all need to be less concerned about grades and more concerned with learning. Although in our society, we put a great deal of weight on grades. Both of my children have discovered that grades do not always reflect how much they have learned. I know I often learned more from what I did wrong than from what I did right.
This thread was started about a suggested grading scale, but I thought that it was HCPS policy that grades were 90, 80, 70, 60. does anybody know?
The 6 oclock bus ride is not novel to ABE, Harford Tech has some buses on the road at that time.
I am going based on speaking in length with my daughter’s Algebra teacher. Many many many times I have spoken to her while volunteering in the school. She is as by the book as you can get. You either earn the grade based on the testing and the classwork, or you dont. A lot of teachers give credit for effort during classwork, this particular teacher does not. You either answer the questions or you dont. I know of a teacher who gives you 100 if you just complete the homework, it doesnt matter if it is right or not. Not my daughter’s teacher – the answer has to be right. It doesnt matter if she spend 2 hours working on the paper, if the answers are wrong, she fails.
As for SMA, we have done a lot of research and have spoken with students that attend there. Yes there are some student who say the school is horrible, there are those who say it is great. Same thing with their parents. They do offer the best in education Harford County has to offer, and so what if there are differences between the administration and the teachers – you show me a school were there isnt.
I personally feel there should be standardized testing and grading policies in Harford County. That way we know that each child, regardless of the school that they attend, are getting treated in the same manner.
I really dont find this curve as a big suprise. My daughter, who is now in HS, attended South Hampton Middle. Great school and good test scores according to the county. Her teacher all through middle school gave the kids every opportunity to bring there grades up. Whether it was extra credit work or donations, they got extra credit which effected their grades. My son is at North Harford Middle. He was one of the hundreds of kids that struggled when they county converted to the Every Day math. He is not offered any kind of extra work to help his grades at NH. Many other teachers in the county have given extra credit for years that could also curve a students grades so what is the difference here.
If it is true that the publisher of the text thinks that the grading needs to be changed, maybe it is because the kids who are now in middle school were always taught math one way, than in 4th & 5th grade, learned a whole new concept. Even the teachers in our elementary school at that time said that it wasn’t fair to those children at that time. It should have been implemented only at the earlier grade levels.
Everyone has made some good points. And we can all agree or disagree on different components of the argument. That’s what an intelligent exchange of ideas is all about and I commend you all.
But the bottom line is: this IS an issue that needs to be addressed. And the fact that the HCPS Supervisor of Mathematics had the opportunity to address it and chose not to, is appalling.
Thanks.
Parent, Taxpayer and Businessman, I agree with you – this IS an issue that needs to be addressed. And the fact that HCPS seems to address nothing, maybe it is a good thing that Gov O’Malley is signing the bill for the new elected school board. Maybe we can finally get some people who have to answer to the parents of children attending in the schools.
Mom (post 23) gives some great information on grading. We always noticed how long the Distinguished Scholar (straight A’s) list was in the Aegis for South Hampton and I had been told by (only) one person that students were allowed to re-take tests. Now, that will bring your grade up. The Bel Air Middle list was always pretty short.
I also asked my daughter whether her teachers (Bel Air Middle) curved grades and she said, “No.” She also added that someone always made an A in her classes, so it wasn’t an issue for the reasons most people curve a grade. It also has been a few years, so who knows what people do now.
Something else that parents may not realize is that teachers are evaluated on how students perform in their classes, so there is a real motivation for having students do well on tests. Adminstrators look to see how many students are passing and what grades they are getting. And if there is ever a complaint about a teacher, they are looking even more carefully.
With a new school board coming (not soon enough) and a new superintendent, I hope that HCPS will get back on track and provide a solid college prep curriculum for those who want it. Unfortunately, it will be too late for my children, but it would be good for the county’s future.
My daughter was one of those students at South Hampton who was told they can retake their math test. She could not retake the whole test…just the ones that she got wrong. I wish my son had the same opportunity. Whether the or not the BOE
reviews these curves, each schools administrators and teachers are still going to handle grading differently. Another example is if you have you child label with
ADD or ADHD, I have seen teachers make an exception for them handing in work late. Most of the children I know with these conditions, can have normal productive days and are able to do the work, but have choose not to. If my child does not do the work, it is a O and will not be excepted if late. I have seen a child go from an E to a C over and over b/c mom reads edline and asked they make an exception for her child b/c of his disability. There might be some cases that this is excusable but if you can make an exception for all of them, than it should be for all. As I applied to earlier, it is all up to the schools desire for their grades to look good . And not just in math!!
Judy, I just wanted to clarify one thing. I have a child in the SMA and I work closely with the administration. There is no power struggle between the administrationand the SMA. Whoever told you that was wrong. There is a bit of a struggle between SMA and non-SMA teachers. SMA parents would shower gifts on the SMA teachers while the other teachers got nothing. We, as a new PTSA, are working hard at fixing that. So far I think we have made some good steps in that direction. I have had children in 3 different high schools and Aberdeen, by far,has the best administration. There is no doubt they do what is best for the children.
Sandy, I do not think the person I talked to was wrong even though you may not agree. I have talked to more than one parent with children at SMA and in general, they do not want to make waves. Their kids are out soon. I wish all the students who chose and will choose the SMA the very best. They have taken and are taking a huge chance going into a new program and counting on HCPS to do the right thing.
Yes, Judy (post #20) the current grading scale for HCPS is 90,80,70,60. At least that’s what is on all my kid’s edline reports. That’s the propsed scale for the grading policy. This sounds like one of those things that individual schools do what they want.
I guess I view a kid being able to occationally retake a test as compassion on the part of the teacher. Especially if the kid usually makes good grades and blows 1 test. Maybe it’s a way for the teacher to see if the student doesn’t know the material, or just had a bad day. Sort of surprised me, especailly since he’s in 8th grade and his HS placement is already done.
Do you guys realize how math is taught in some schools? Kids sit in front of a computer, and use a computer program that teaches them and the “teacher” just walks around making sure the computers don’t lock up. No wonder we have to grade with a curve.
If they allowed more failures though they might get in trouble with No Child Left Behind. Why follow a program when you can just disparage it and then cheat to avoid the consequences the program needed.
This is such a non-issue. Cindy obviously has an axe to grind with HCPS.
I have read many, many posts on The Dagger over the past year, but I have never commented. Until now. When I read the following post from William, I couldn’t stop myself. “This is such a non-issue. Cindy obviously has an axe to grind with HCPS.”
1) Anyone with a sense of fairness, and who is capable of rational thought , would recognize that the current policy is NOT fair to the middle school math students of HCPS. If a student earns an “A” in math at Southampton Middle School, that should equate to an “A” from Bel Air Middle, Edgewood Middle, or any other middle school in the county. Period. According to the article, an 85% test average could mean an “A” at one school and a “B” at another. This is most definitely an issue as grades do mean something to middle school students: admission to the SMA academy and Harford Tech, National Junior Honor Society, and awards such as the Presidential Academic Award for Excellence. If there are grades being curved to such an extreme, who really belongs on the Honor Roll from each middle school?
2) Cindy has been an advocate for change when it was needed in HCPS. Thanks to her efforts alongside other concerned parents, BAMS has air conditioning, the new auditorium at BAHS is much larger, and we will have a partially elected school board. Being an active participant in the education process does not mean she has an “axe to grind.” It means that she supports public education and what HCPS has the potential to be. I thank her and every other parent who stands up and speaks out!