A few days after the Harford County Board of Education presented its reasons for halting plans to build Red Pump Elementary School and moving forward with Campus Hills to ease school overcrowding; the Harford County Council released the results of its own investigation at a meeting with PTA leaders in the Council chambers on Thursday.
By the end of the 2 ½ hour presentation, both Council President Billy Boniface and Vice President Dick Slutzky had presented a detailed discussion of the merits of building Red Pump over Campus Hills and also aimed the spotlight squarely on County Executive David Craig as a key figure in the controversy.
Councilman Slutzky said that the Council was “investigating with auditors how the Executive Branch” is providing funds to the Board of Education to proceed with Campus Hills despite the Council’s approval of only $100,000 in actual funding for the project and the Council’s subsequent request that spending be put on hold. Slutzky said the Council has not been asked to approve the bond sale for Campus Hills and said County Government was “writing checks without a balance in the bank.”
On the question of State reimbursement for Red Pump which, along with Campus Hills, was being forward funded by the County with hopes of State reimbursement, Council President Boniface said “We did have State funding approval” for Red Pump and “the County Executive lobbied to have it taken away” but that “we can get it back. Slutzky said the Board of Education and the County Administration “have delayed this process for your kids for a year”
Regarding the battle between the School Board and the Council, Boniface said “The County Executive wants a school real bad at Schucks Road” and “He’s using us as the scape goats” and we “don’t know why [Board of Education President] Pat Hess is going along.”
But Board President Pat Hess and even Past President Tom Fidler didn’t escape speculation as to their motives, given Campus Hills’ location outside the development envelope and the political and financial winners and losers either school might produce.
Boniface said the development envelope could be expanded if the County was somehow forced to provide public water to the Campus Hill site, for example if contamination were found from MTBE similar to what had been found at nearby Harford Community College, although findings at the HCC site were not at actionable levels.
Slutzky asked the audience “Who lives in the Red Pump area and has aspirations for political office? Pat Hess told me four times he brought the idea [of Campus Hills] to Jackie Haas and shepherded it through the Board. You decide why that was done.”
Slutzky also said he told President Hess that the Council would support expanding either new school to 800 seats and that Red Pump could relieve overcrowding at Youth’s Benefit Elementary School as well as Prospect Mill, Fountain Green, Hickory and Forest Lakes Elementary Schools but the school expansion and the benefits to Youth’s Benefit Elementary School were not included in the Board’s presentation to the public last Monday night.
Former Board of Education President Tom Fidler is a Senior Vice President and a Principal at Mackenzie Commercial Real Estate Services representing several properties in the area near Campus Hills that could benefit if public utilities were extended to the school site. President Boniface said Fidler had earlier asked him to extend public water to another school outside the development envelope, Forest Hills ES, and that the Council had “been under tremendous pressure” to do so. Of Fidler, Boniface said “He steps down from the Board and six months later, it’s Schucks Road [Campus Hills].”
Speaking of the entire controversy over which school should be built, Council President Boniface, who is also an owner/operator of Bonita Farms, a horse farm in Darlington said: “I’ve shoveled a lot of horse manure and I have a sense when something smells and I’ll tell you this thing stinks.”
Council Report Released to the Public
President Boniface explained that the Council requested a report to prepare the Council for a possible vote on the funding for Campus Hills, but that no request had come to the Council yet to approve the bond sale to finance the school. Boniface said “we haven’t been asked to do anything” by the County Executive. Councilman Slutzky said that the private communications between the Council members and the leadership of HCPS were intended to avoid embarrassment for “agencies or individuals – obviously that was a mistake” but he suggested to the audience that after the Council’s presentation “you might have to decide who should be embarrassed”.
The Timeline
The report prepared at the Council’s request by Councilman Slutzky began with a chronology of events, beginning in November 2008 when enrollment figures reported to the Adequate Public Facilities Advisory Board, which Slutzky chairs, indicated that it was likely that only one new elementary school would be needed to relieve overcrowding greater Bel Air area. The report went on to detail a series of meetings and phone conversations between Council members and Board of Education President Pat Hess and sometimes including Harford County Public Schools Superintendent Jacqueline Haas, Interim Superintendent Pat Skebeck, Chief of Administration Joe Licata and Assistant Superintendent for Operations Cornell Brown.
In one notable exchange from the report, Slutzky writes that Board President Hess told him in on January 13th that “he would never change his decision to halt Red Pump and build Campus Hills and that if the Council would not fund building Campus Hills then the BOE might not build any school at all,” although Hess later backed off from that position.
“Cherry Picking” PTAs
On January 23rd, the report says Hess called a parent from Prospect Mill Elementary School to solicit support in lobbying the Council for Campus Hills. In the course of their conversation Hess told the parent that since Red Pump had been halted (in December), even if the Board reversed their decision the school would no longer be ready in 2010 but would be delayed until 2012 because reopening the bid process would take too long to restart.
But later in the report, Slutzky wrote “After checking with the Health Department, I found out that all the required permits that they know of are in force and are good for one year” and after checking with a “knowledgeable School Administration source” that restarting the bid process would not be difficult, especially in the current economic environment.” And he therefore believed Hess’ statements about the bid process to be untrue “He [Pat Hess] appears to be relying on scare tactics to enhance his defense.”
Sources say that Hess, County Executive David Craig and others also met with parents at Prospect Mill Elementary School, which is the most crowded elementary school in the county and closest to the Campus Hills site, to solicit their support for Campus Hills and specifically to fight the Council. The Council report says that Hess did not contact other area PTAs, including those closer to the Red Pump site. Slutzky said later during the meeting “Pat Hess cherry picked PTAs” whereas the Council “invited everyone”
Addressing the Board of Education’s Case for Campus Hills
The Council’s report says the Board’s suggestion that Campus Hills is located closer to the overcrowding is misleading. Slutzky presented two maps at the meeting showing that that elementary overcrowding was evenly split between Campus Hills and Red Pump, when overcrowding at Youth’s Benefit Elementary School was factored in.
That contrasts with the Board’s analysis which excluded Youth’s Benefit Elementary School but included Churchville Elementary School. The Council’s report says that Churchville is outside the development envelope, operating under capacity and not expected to experience population growth. Slutzky said at the meeting that Youth’s Benefit Elementary School is the third most crowded elementary school in the county and has neighborhoods inside the development envelope that have the potential for population growth. The report says Youth’s Benefit Elementary School could get relief from Red Pump, but is too far from Campus Hills. And while Youth’s Benefit Elementary School is slated for expansion in the Board’s Capital Improvement Program, Slutzky said that given the current economic environment, proceeding with that expansion was 6 to 9 years away.
The Board has also argued that redistricting would be more complicated by the opening of Red Pump rather than Campus Hills and that transportation would be more expensive
In an excerpt from the Council’s report:
“Substantial residential neighborhoods in five out of the six attendance areas being considered in this district are within 3 miles of the site for Red Pump School. These neighborhoods could be potential sites for redistricting. Students from all those schools could be driven directly to the Red Pump Road School without having to travel any further than other students have to travel within the attendance area they are already in to go to the school they already attend. The only school attendance area outside this situation is Fountain Green. Only Prospect Mill and Fountain Green are within four miles of the Campus Hill school site.”
Slutzky said that at one of the meetings with HCPS officials, he pressed several times for hard data to show whether it would be more expensive to transport students one way or the other as the Board has claimed. Slutzky said the response he received was “No, but we suspect it could be” and that buses cannot always make right turns. But Slutzky said that given that redistricting plans are not yet in place it was impossible to know which routes would be affected and which school would be less expensive for bus transportation.
Item Analysis
The heart of the presentation involved an Item Analysis beginning with an overview of the comparative costs of Red Pump vs. Campus Hills, with data supplied by the Harford County Treasury Department, Department of Public Works, Health Department, Department of Planning and Zoning and the Harford County Board of Education and the Harford County Public School Administration.
Cost Projections
The report notes that the cost for the prototype school building at either site would be the same at $23 million. So the cost comparisons boiled down to estimated costs relating to site considerations such as necessary road improvements, access to water supply, sewer requirements and the locations in or outside the development envelope. Boniface said during the meeting that it was these site considerations that made Campus Hills the Council’s secondary choice when it appeared that enrollment would require two schools.
Costs for either the Red Pump or Campus Hills site have changed over time and in fact data provided by the Board of Education for the Council’s report provides conflicting figures. While the Board’s own presentation Monday estimated that Red Pump would be slightly cheaper to build than Campus Hills, Councilman Slutzky said in a phone interview that the estimates are “moving targets”, especially given that many costs are unknown and that he used the Board estimates showing Campus Hills would be slightly cheaper in his report because those Board estimates were supported with more detail.
The report says that Red Pump is expected to cost a total of $32,182,854, of which $1,986,820 had been spent as of February 2009.
The total cost for Campus Hills is estimated at $30,924,129, of which $249,749 had been spent as of February, although only $100,000 was approved by the Council. The $249,749 expenditure figure also does not include encumbrances from contracts associated with the site, which documents attached to the report indicate totaled approximately $2.7 million. The report also says the estimated total cost for Campus Hills does not include highway improvements and is complicated by costs that are being shared with other government agencies, including Parks & Rec, making it difficult to separate out costs for Campus Hills alone.
Road Improvements
The report says the cost of the only road improvement necessary to Red Pump is a roundabout, estimated by the Department of Public Works and Treasury at $350.000.
Campus Hills would be served by the busy intersection of Rt. 22 and Schucks Road, which one Board of Education member had euphemistically called “an adventure.” The cost of a turning lane off of Rt. 22 to the school and related drainage improvements were estimated by the Department of Public Works to cost between $450,000 to $500,000 and long term improvements to the area are estimated to cost between $3 million to $6 million.
But the Council report noted that isolating the cost of other needed road improvements that accrue only to the new school is problematic in light of a planned expansion of HCC. According to the Council’s report the County Executive may also seek to forward fund major road improvements in the area at an estimated cost of $7 million to $8 million. From the report: “The County Administration would prefer a consolidated long term solution with additional improvements and would hope to get State grant money to help with the expense.”
At issue is whether these improvements involving State roads, which are normally funded with State dollars, should be taken on by local taxpayers. If Campus Hills moves forward, Slutzky told the audience “The County would use your tax dollars to fund a State road.”
Water
Red Pump Elementary is located inside the development envelope and therefore has access to public water. According the Harford County Department of Public works, the cost of connection charges for both water and sewer would be $364,550; the cost for water only was not separated out. Added to that would be the cost for purchasing water depending on the price and the usage at the time the school opens.
Campus Hills Elementary would require the construction of a major new well, the cost of which could not be estimated by either the Health Department or the Department of Public Works. Also unknown were potential recurring costs if a carbon filtration system was needed. The report says MTBE had been found on the Harford Community College campus, across the street from the proposed elementary school property. While the Board of Education had made much of water testing on the school site that came up clean, Councilman Slutzky said the Board’s engineers did not test adjacent sites and the report notes that the site of a former gas station at the corner of Rt.22 and Schucks Road had not been tested since monitoring wells were pulled up in 2006-07.
Sewer
Septic systems will have to be built at both school sites.
Red Pump Elementary has access to public sewer service, but both a temporary and a permanent pumping station would first be required. The cost of the temporary station could not be estimated by the Department of Public Works, although the cost of the permanent station was estimated at $4 million to be shared with the county and a local residential developer. The County’s share was estimated at $2.7 million which would be recovered through connection fees and service charges.
The Campus Hills site also requires a permanent septic system of unknown cost, although the report cites a suggestion from the Health Depaprtment that the system would have to be larger and more expensive than the one at Red Pump. The possibility exists that those costs could be shared with the expansion of Harford Community College and other public schools in the area, but no formal arrangement has been proposed. The report said that such a “package” deal would raise questions about ownership which could become crucial if the system should fail. Campus Hills is being forward funded by Harford County Government, with revenue coming entirely from local taxpayers. Costs at HCC are shared. Revenue for the college in FY 2008 came from local taxpayers (37%) tuition and fees (31%) the State (22%), students and other (10%)
Conclusion
The report concludes with Slutzky’s recommendation that the Council give serious consideration to funding Red Pump with added capacity and that the Council work with the Board and the School Administration move the project back on track as soon as possible. Both Slutzky and Boniface said Red Pump would now be difficult to complete by 2010, but it could be done by 2011 compared with Campus Hills which Boniface said would only open in 2012 under a “best case” scenario.
Summing up the Council’s case, Boniface said what was most disturbing was that at Red Pump, all permits were approved, contracts were out and the school was ready to go into construction and open in the fall of 2010 and asked the audience “What went wrong?”
Why am I not surprised that the BOE tried to railroad this one on us. This was a strange decision from the start and never backed up with justifiable data. I asked several times for some justification but my emails went unanswered byt the Board. But, It’s all for the “good” of the children. Yea, right. I think I’ll have a green beer.
Regarding student transportation, HCPS has the ABILITY to “run the numbers” and create a rough draft redistricting plan assuming Red Pump is the chosen site, and a second plan assuming Shucks Rd. is the chosen site.
Just as HCPS “suspects it could be” more costly to transport students to Red Pump, I suspect it could be more costly to transport students to Shucks Rd.
Take a look at the elementary school attendance area map:
https://www.hcps.org/schools/docs/attendanceareas/es.pdf
Red Pump would be above the “t” in BENEFIT, and Shucks would be at the first “P” in PROSPECT.
The Bel Air area elementary schools needing relief in order of % overcapacity are Prospect Mill, Emmorton, Forest Lakes, Youth’s Benefit, Fountain Green, and Hickory.
The question is, does HCPS have the DESIRE to take an honest look at the possibilities?
Cindy, Larry, guess who??? I couldn’t help but get in the mix of this given the calls I’ve received and some of the emails from parents asking for my historical perspective and to clarify my involvement. Its clear to me that the finger pointing and double-standard are getting in the way of resolving the issue with the best solution. I think Larry has the right idea – what are the real options? Would EVERYONE involved be opened to possibilties?
There are so many items that I could address and provide more insight on. First, I am most compelled to dispell any questioning of my motives about Shucks Road following Mr. Boniface’s recent remarks. In 2006 and 2007 I attempted to generate an open discussion about the County’s regulations on public water to school sites. For two reasons – (1) the MTBE issue had escalated to high levels and needed a longterm solution, and (2) our efforts to acquire a 25 to 30 acre site within the development envelope on the north and north-east side of the greater Bel Air area were failing for a variety of reasons,and the only sites that remotely were available were situated along the development envelope line that limits the area of public water. Both are difficult, complex, and county altering issues. Through a variety of PTA meetings, public dialogue at Council meetings, and private meetings with various Council members, I had suggested a means to extend public water service to schools sites WITH the further legal means to restrict water use in the area or to make it specific via a legal easement agreement and recorded declaration that would limit any consideration to taking that extension of water beyond a school site and effectively rescind it if and when the school was no longer in existence. Its the same arguement for other public facilities such as firehouses, police stations, County office buildings, etc…where land is attractively affordable. I went as far as drafting the text based on other national efforts to provide the “how to” on this effort. Through vast research and tools in our industry, I was able to conclude that the opportunity to find a school site in this area, that the County could afford, was of a size that would work, on a major arterial road, with public water, and that made demographic sense based on the inventory of residential land to be developed, was at best, a slim chance of actually happening. To provide an example, we identified, with the County’s efforts as well, a site on Rt. 543, north of Prospect Mill interchange and south of the Rt. 1 Bypass. It’s across the entrance into Vineyard Oaks I or II… Public water is about 40′ from the edge of the property. The right size. The right location, arguably, for relief to many of the overcrowded schools, and potentially affordable. Never happened. “No way.” “Not a shot in hell” of getting the Council to even consider it. To their credit, the Council was openminded on how to do it with restricting the water use as to avoid any potential expansion of the development envelope. It never came to fruition and our schools are still overcrowded.
At no time was I ever interested in seeking personal gain. Its a little hard to do so when you have no interest in any properties or clients other than the house you live in, and you have over 700 parents to answer to where my own kids go to school! Enough already on that nonsense.
Next, Red Pump Road. Regretfully, this school should be under construction by now. In 2006, we were aware of the ongoing matter of the public sewer pumping station and the impact on the design plans for the site. A temporary private septic area could have been avoided. It came down to two answers – (1) the School Board would have had to get in the business of redistricting certain, selected, undeveloped properties to avoid APF or (2) the County Government would have to amend its own APF laws possibly for a short time to allow for the submittal of development plan that would trigger the pumping station. Neither are items that anyone felt could withstand a legal challenge or the potential ramifications Countywide. Regretfully, in my own opinion, the solution was there for the taking. All of that is now behind us.
I am no longer aware of the insight the Board has and used to make its recommendation or change in direction. I do believe that any issue such as this is always painstakingly discussed among all those on the Board. I also believe that the right questions were asked and the right information requested.
I could type forever on the other items or dodge balls being thrown, but for now, we should be talking about “options”. For example, its been part of the process to simply look for and build new schools. In these unprecedented times which are not temporary in any way regardless of what check the Fed’s stimulas package will offer, it is time for new plans, new strategies. The Board and the County, and a few Council members (from time to time) were part of the ongoing discussions on how to expand current and better utilize our School System’s assets – its school campuses. Where could we add? Where could we go vertical? Where could this be done to maximize the impact to capacities and minimize the cash needed to do it and minimize the impact to each schools’ community? Could it be done in such a way that State involvement would be minimal to expedite the timeframe for completion? A simple person, I always wondered why the State had to be involved if the local County was paying for it? We’re kidding ourselves if we continue to act and determine policy based on the “What if’s” of the State’s ability to pay us back. It became very clear to me as School Board President that our reliance on State $$$ was becoming a thing of the past, quickly. I was hoping I wouldn’t be right. Not the case. This discussion is a lengthy one and we’ll get into this later, I suspect.
One other question? Not to play devil’s advocate, but, based on current elementary capacity and enrollments, one could argue that no new school is needed and would be a waste of $$$. A countywide redistricting, a radical process, would and could be done to get every school at our below capacity, plus or minus. Unique times call for unique discussions and non-conforming solutions. What would that picture look like? I am aware that its not that simple, for a long list of reasons. But, is it worth pursuing as an option?
Both sites have pro’s and cons. Three years ago, we we’re prepared to build two schools at the cost of $65M +/-. Now its down to one school. There’s a much larger topic here that needs to be discussed. The clock is ticking. Our classrooms are still overcrowded. Kids continue to take homeroom in the gymnasium. Students are taking lunch at ridiculous morning hours because of the number of kids in a school, etc… All the while, we are stuck in an argument that has no clear, defined, solution other than what side you choose to support. All the while, an election year is looming in the near future. It also needs to said – even with the overcrowded conditions, these schools continue to perform at positive and successful levels. That is a true testiment to the staff of each school, and their parental community. I can only imagine the impact of NOT having overcrowded hallways and classrooms would have on these schools.
Enough with the finger pointing. Enough with questioning motives and political aspirations. In my five years on the Board, I had the pleasure of working with people that I know are above all this.
Thank you everyone for your time and indulgence. I’ll try to provide insight as this unfolds.
Tom Fidler Jr.
Past President – H.C. School Board
(forgive the typo’s)
One idea that I’ve never heard discussed is the problem of why these schools are overcrowded. Parents/builders flocked to these areas because of good schools. Here in Abingdon when the students enter 6th grade families move to the Bel Air or now Patterson Mill School District to get away from the consecutively failing NCLB middle school. What if ALL schools were created equal? We would not have massive overcrowding because families would not mortgage their futures on homes in these areas. I’ve never heard any school administrator discuss that UNEQUAL education in Harford County is the underlying reason for overcrowding at some schools in this county.
Tom,
Nice to hear from you! Should I save you a seat in the peanut gallery at the next BOE Meeting?
But seriously, in years of following the County Council dealing with APF and expansion of the development envelope, I can fully understand their mindset that if water/sewer is expanded across a street for a school outside of the envelope, there are lawyers for neighboring property owners who will fight to hook into these utilities and therefore expand the development envelope, no magtter how well the exception is written.
As for the countwide elementary redistricting solving the overcapacity issues, and alleviating the need for any new school, current elementary enrollment is 95% of capacity. Although there is a projected elementary enrollment decline of 24 students next year (-0.14%), future elementary enrollments are projected to increase yearly from 2010 through 2016. Several hundred new seats will become available through ongoing modernizations at Joppatowne and Deerfield in the next 2 years, but even with those seats, enrollments are projected to increase from 95% in 2012 to 98% in 2016.
There is not enough wiggle room to expect being able to balance enrollment countywide.
It is refreshing to have a place to express these thoughts and concerns. Go Dagger!
p.s. Carl — That green beer sounds pretty good right now!
Tom, I wonder what you think should happen now. Obviously, a new school cannot be built without agreement on all sides. But what do you think would be the best outcome, given the choices at hand?
Is this the same Board President who went in front of the County Council and said that we need more commercial real estate in Harford County? Right now all of these spaces are sitting empty and the number keeps growing.
What is the real problem here anyway? The Board said they want to build the school where the kids are but there really aren’t that many kids near the school site. Part of the problem is that the County doesn’t buy property for schools in the development envelope because they say it is too expense, and then they have nowhere to put the schools. If they did things right, Patterson Mill would still be used mostly for Emmorton Recreaction Council and the new high school would be in Forest Hill. We don’t want to spend the money to put the schools where the kdis are.
I think this also illustrates the problem with having people in the development industry serve on the Board of Education as an appointed member. Mr. Fidler claims that this has nothing to do with him but yet I think I recall an article in the paper wherein he said that Prospect Mill was his “hobby project.” Was it because he had property nearby for commercial real estate?
I appreciate Mr. Fidler’s comments on here but I also still am unsure of his motives. Why did the President of the County Council bring his name into all of this? He may have information that the general public doesn’t have about dealings with the Board. The Council was ELECTED to represent the citizens of this county and the Board was not.
Rebalancing enrollment across the county is a great idea in principle, but let’s not forget the thundering herd of BRAC kids heading our way. All projections say the biggest surge will be around 2012. We need to build another school or we’ll have trailers at elementary schools until 2040.
I agree with Mr. Fidler, that the state really should have no say in how a local community spends it’s money to build schools. But then again, the State shouldn’t have to approve us having an elected school board either.
Elaine – obviously you know nothing about Mr Fidler. I am really saddened by people who make accusations against a non-salaried volunteer parent trying to help his community. It was so refreshing having Tom as our BOE president especially knowing that he lives in the community, has children who attended some of our problem schools and him and his wife have always been very involved in volunteering in our community. As for his current paid job, that was just another asset. Who whould better know about the building, repairing, costs,
zoning and permits that would be needed to build or rebuild our schools that are desperately needed. In working with commercial real estate, I am sure he knows something about populations in different areas and where a school would best be needed. Maybe next time we look for a BOE President, we should look for a car salesmen??? Mr Fidler would never let his job effect decisions that he made while on our board. He is a honest genuine man who is always looking for the best for his kids. Stupid comments like I have read in the past, and the burden that this has caused his family, is why we lost a really great volunteer. Maybe people should get the facts before opening their mouth!!!
Response to “another solution”
HCPS all have the same rules and policies. They distribute the same text books and offer the same basic subjects at all schools. I feel the biggest difference is parent involvement. Fallston High/Middle School have computers and lots of the latest technology in all of their classes. Where the new math/science program was put into Aberdeen and the families from Fallston were shocked not to see the same there. This is not just given to one school and not the others!! This is all do to parent donations and participation. Parents and the PTA of schools such as BelAir, Fallston, Forest Hill and North Harford have put alot of their time and effort to make the schools what they are today. I myself have spent countless hour volunteering and supporting fundraisers just to help our schools b/c I know the county will not provide everything. I think your best answer to your question is to check out the PTA and parent involvement in the schools in question. Without a strong base of both, a school is never going to be its best.
Elaine, you got me. Your right. All of the vacant space in Bel Air – yes – it was me. I was the culprit. National bankruptcy of Circuit City, yup, me again. Oh, that $4.00 gallon of gas last summer, yup, me again. This global recession, me at my best. Better yet, Bernie Madoff, a personal friend, and I just got my AIG bonus! (I suspect I just made a few people laugh!)
Elaine, in all sincerity, stay focused on the issues and the facts. The allegations, interpretations of motives, and stupid comments got us in this mess and have it stuck in a political blackhole.
Moving on, Larry, Cindy, I am not certain that the construction of a new school at this price tag, at one of these two sites, is the best answer, It could be, But, I’m thinking that these are unique times. When we made the decision a few years ago to build two new schools, times were good. Check books were full. Goodness, we had one year that our Budget was fully funded. Now, the rules are different and facts have changed. Indulge me for a minute with the following:
You have 6 schools in this north Bel Air area over capacity – Emmorton, Forest Lakes, Ftn. Green, Prospect Mill, and Youth’s Benefit, and Hickory. Assume for the minute that you did not have the luxury of two potential schools sites. Assume that you wanted to minimize redistricting to the fewest students and families possible. Assume you wanted to stay within the development envelope. Most importantly, assume you wanted to expedite the process and take advantage of the current economic climate. What would you do? You would do the same thing we do everyday with our corporate clients in this new world, you look to do more with less.
SCHOOL CAMPUS AREAS
Between FL, FG, HK, and YB, there are 452 students that represent the overcrowded volume beyond capacity. Now, if its possible, I am not saying that it is easy, but, the work we did in the past gave us a good position that it was possible, you could design minor facility additions to each of these campuses. They can make manmade islands in the middle of an ocean; we can figure this out. Assume for a minute that you use 20 students per class, you would need to add 5 classrooms to each campus, plus the % of common area and non-instructional areas. Rule out YB for expansion as this is a longer term CIP issue. Where could you offset this? Possibly Forest Hill. I get a little squimish at this given the well water issue, but, its worth considering. Adjoining property could be available. Consider Hickory Elem. There is plenty of land area to accomodate a two level, small footprint addition. Forest Lakes is tricky, but, if you removed the ball field to the rear and to the south end of the campus, a two level addition where the current play lot is could work. Relocate the play lot to the ball field area. Ftn Green, a little more difficult, but possible. Perhaps a second level over the existing footprint of some of the school’s wings? You could upsize Hickory and Ftn Green to accomodate most of the overcrowding at Prospect Mill. Further onsite expansion at Emmorton could address both its own crowded conditions and Prospect Mill. Prospect Mill could even be considered for a modest classroom only expansion of 3 to 4 rooms, where the portables are. Again, I get a little squimish, as this school is on private well and septic with ongoing repair issues. There’s an entire list of issues with that one.
TRANSPORTATION
This plan would dramatically reduce the impact of one new school, with 700 +/- students, impacting one area only. It would disseminate the traffic related volumes over the existing conditions. Think about it – that traffic is there now, in that community, in the school parking lot, etc…
REDISTRICTING
This idea would considerably reduce the impact of moving kids. This is something I hated on the Board. Making that decision was the worse experience of my life, so far. Elaine, your getting close! (just kidding)
TIMING
Having the ability to add within the current school campus should eliminate IAC involvement, or substantially reduce their role. Timing could be expedited. Engineering, designing, bidding, and constructing small additions happens much faster than a new school. I suspect we could get this done to ensure a comprehensive opening of several expanded campuses by 2012. A few might happen by 2011.
COSTS:
If you assumed the cost of a new school to be around $30M for 700 seats or so, that’s $44K per seat. We could do this phase for $20M or so if you use the current mindset. Now, take into consideration you don’t have the road improvements to incure, your not buying property, and your putting out to bid commercial work to an industry that is hungry for work. Perhaps we could shave off 10% to 20%??? Who knows. But in simple terms, it’s possible. Oh, you also keep everything where it is today, and the arguement against a natural expansion of the development envelope goes away. Just as important, it undermines anyone with a political agenda or motive for one or the other current school sites.
I realize this is a simple, brief, overview. Nothing is perfect. But, we, as a community, a school system, a local government, should be evaluating the right solution for now and the years to come. Things are not going to get better anytime soon. It’s a different set of circumstances we are in from just two, short years ago. They are changing every day it seems. It’s worth talking about.
Thanks.
to USA: Aberdeen is the magnet school for Math/science, so that’s different. It’s a countywide program only available there. About parental involvement and schools being equal, you can’t say the PTA is responsible for the test scores at all the other schools. PTAs do make a difference but are they responsible for the everyday learning that happens in the classroom? I am very active in PTA, but this is an institutional problem.
Teachers do not want to teach at Edgewood. This is a fact. The county offers bonuses to “highly qualified teachers” that they never have to pay because teachers still don’t want to work there. And if they do take them, they work there the required number of years and then leave. Look at the number of highly qualified teachers at all the schools and see how the Edgewood schools stack up. And if the numbers go up at Edgewood this year it’s because for the past year they’ve been teaching straight to the test. They’ve cut extras — music for example, so they can teach extra hours of math every day. The school has failed NCLB 5 years in a row. Is this the fault of the PTA?
The county is complicit in this failure. And parents who don’t have to face the choice of expensive private schools or a failing one don’t understand.
I have a friend who on orientation night for incoming 5th graders at EMS last year was told not to put her purse on the desks or on the floor because they were having an insect problem and had just sprayed insecticide and there were bugs. This was during the week when students were there. She cried when she left thinking about her son attending there. I went to a community meeting there about the comprehensive plan and was surprised to see broken water fountains covered with trash bags. Is this the fault of the PTA? This is the county.
People in Abingdon pay the same amount of taxes as everyone else in the county and yet weare supplied with substandard schools. I am always suprised when parents from Patterson Mill complain that the sidewalks were put in incorrectly. If this was the only thing that this Abingdon parent had to worry about, you can’t imagine the joy I would have.
Well two elementary schools in BelAir have no AC, North Harford Middle has mold, peeling paint and hvac issues, Fallston and Forest Hill have MTBE in their water, which causes cancer. Stop the pity party, the problems are county wide. As for teachers, North Harford Middle has some teacher that have been there for 30 yrs. Are they qualified? Sure on paper but I have not met 1 parent that has been thrilled with the teachers there. I work every day with my son b/c I do not feel his always gets the proper instruction. I am on edline daily and email his teachers often. Yes, it is a full time job, but his sucess in school is a priority to me. His friends parents and I are always working together so that they due not fail. You can only get out of something what you put into it. If you were a teacher, where would you choose to work? In a school with overwhelming parent and PTA involvment or with minimal involvement. As a parent, you can also insist on extra help with your child. I drove my son to school 1/2 early for years to get extra help in reading and now I pick my daughter up 45 minutes late to get math help 2 times a week. How many parents at Aberdeen have looked into and insist on getting extra help? I have also been paying Sylvan off for the past year. You need to do what ever and not rely on the county or someone else to help you.
Marypat: Sorry I offended you with the remarks but I am asking questions that were brought up by the County Council President. Are you going to slam him too? He is the one who said in the report that he was approached by Mr. Fidler in regard to extending water and sewer. One of the major issues with this site is the water and since Mr. Fidler has properties that would benefit, how could he not be interested in having water in that area.
I also appreciate all of the hours he and his wife have spent volunteering. I too know many people who have spent countless and thankless hours volunteering (as mentioned in prior post). That is what has made the school system and county what it is and they have actually become so dependent on volunteers (EMS, School Board, Parents) they would really be in trouble without them. I also believe that the school board should be paid with all of the responsiblities they have. Don’t know of many school board members who are not.
Getting back to the issue at hand, there are real conflicts of interest that arise. A public school employee can’t be on the Board but anyone else can. I bet too that Mr. Fidler would agree that one of the big issues is not buying property in the development envelope to build schools. Unfortunately being in real estate doesn’t mean you can do much to affect the complicated system that hinders all counties in school funding and building. It doesn’t seem like he was able to to much either because it is an issue that the State of Maryland created. Maybe he will comment on that.
When my nephew was at EMS he asked for extra tutoring after school for math and was told the teacher “didn’t do that.” He also offered to come in early and was told once again, “I don’t do that.” His mother had to send him to C2 for extra tutoring and she was told they would have to start over because “he had no knowledge of basic Algebra.” He was very successful in math at Abingdon — until he entered EMS. His parents took the extra initiative, asked for tutoring. Even went to the prinicipal and asked that he be transferred to another math class who told them there was “nothing he could do.” That is just one example. Is that the fault of the parents? What was their recourse then? To transfer schools? Guess what, unless you’re an employee of HCPS you’re out of luck.
Good morning Elaine. Good thought process, but, you don’t have all the facts. I advocated for the idea of public water to FHES when the MTBE issue became pressing and levels were on the rise. I never advocated for public water to the Campus Hills area. That’s not for me to decide. As part of the pitch to the Council for water to FHES, I offered to create the needed protection to ensure that water source and location could not be “tapped”into for adjoining properties. This is a legal process that could be done successfully through binding legislation at the County and State level. Larry, to answer your question, it could be done.
I’ve never supported intiatives to expand water & sewer service unless it was for health reasons such as the problem at FLES. How can you not support that idea. Contrary to suspicion, several of our small commercial projects in the Campus Hills area do just fine with private well water and septic. Is it ideal? No. But, these land owners knew what they bought and worked with it. To me, it makes no sense to even consider extending public water to that area right now. That’s longterm, master plan issue that has numerous concerns and what-ifs. I suspect I’ll be long gone from Harford County if and when that ever happens.
I hope this puts you at ease Elaine. We should have coffee together! Even after my coffee meetings with Ms. Mumby, she still talks to me, but I’ve never received a xmas card from her… Hmmm.
I am not from this county but I love this site!!! We need this in Baltimore City. Tom Fidler, you are the man for continuing to be so involved in the community. I love how everyone here has an opinion and speaks their mind. HCPS might be in trouble but I can see the county is full of fighters. I only wish the board meeting and the info at HCPS could be as involved as this site. After coming to this site, it seems like they are hiding so much.
The idea of providing public water at FHES was a populist, knee-jerk reaction to a problem that was under control since well before the implementation of such a costly option could have been completed. There have been no detections of MtBE in effluent or point of use samples since late 2006, period. MDE has been very satisfied with the performance of the filtration system there since then. The current granular activated carbon system in place requires periodic change out to prevent biofouling and chemical breakthrough. Granted that the cost of changeout can be substantial, it is also realistically temporary, as MtBE concentrations will eventually subside and be absent within the aquifer since the source has been removed. Public water, on the other hand, would be the cost that keeps on costing into eternity. Not just startup costs (which would have been substantial), but maintenence and product costs. In the face of the political grandstanding that I witnessed at various meetings, the Council was well-advised to stay clear of such an unnecessary option.
Interesting comments from Mr. Fidler. Thanks for your insight into this since you were on the Board and seem to know a lot about what is going on. I don’t disagree with some of your suggestions about additions, etc. but also don’t know how that would effect building the auxilliary spaces like gym(s) and cafeteria. Some of the problem was created by the State when they mandated all day kindergarten. Now they are talking about pre-k. Where is the money coming from for that? I would really like to see a push back from the counties for all of these unfunded mandates.
There was an article in another paper today about adjacent homeowners having their front yard where the school would be. There was also a comment that there are other homeowners whose property is nearby. Was the cost of purchasing the property factored into the overall cost of the school?
As an aside, I personally feel the pain of the parent who is spending money getting their student tutored. At least your child is fortunate enough to have a parent who is advocating for them but it is at a high cost and it’s not right. Think of all of the kids who don’t have anyone and you see exactly what happens to them. Don’t think just because a student goes to a “Bel Air” school that there aren’t similar issues. It just depends on the school, the teachers, and the administration. We could start a whole other thread about that…
Tom — I agree that constructing additional classrooms at affected overcrowded schools may well be the ideal solution, assuming core areas, hallways, facilities, etc. can accommodate the additional enrollment. That is a great concept for future CIP discussions.
But there was a solution (maybe not ideal, but a solution) in place, that everyone agreed upon, WITH FUNDING, for 696 seats by Sept. 2010, which was canned, in favor of what?
So while the “adults” are arguing, the kids should just go back into their crowded schools, trailers, or even, as PMES 5th graders, over to the middle school for a couple more years?
I hate to have to keep harping on the same theme, but I will. Once again, the losers are the students of the Harford County Public School system. Whichever “adults” win the battle, the losers will remain the same.
The debate over which elementary school site is appropriate to build a school on has provoked various responses. Some are emotional, some intellectual, and some are just plain confusing. In the interest of brevity I will address one item as an example of what confuses me.
Tom Fidler has spoken out on the water issue at Forest Hills Elementary School and expanding public water to institutions in general. I find his presentation disconcerting because Mr. Fidler and I had that conversation in detail on at least one occasion. I thought he understood the explanation that was provided, but apparently I was mistaken.
Mr. Fidler suggests that he reasearched the matter of bringing public water to areas outside the development envelope and outside the master water and sewer plan and outside the smart growth/priority funding area in jurisdictions with sovereign rights over such matters such as counties in the State of Maryland. I’m not sure if he conducted that investigation himself or if he had his legal staff assist him. Which ever it is, he states that he had a solution that would work and suggests that it would be supportable. He also indicates that he could not get local government, i.e. Harford County Government and the Harford County Council to embrace his ideas. Further, Mr. Fidler offers that he only proffered that solution in the interest of public health for school children.
Mr. Fidler’s special plan was to have the Harford County Council pass legilation that would permit public water to institutions such as schools outsite the master water plan for reasons of health, and that we could define in legislation what the conditions would be for controlling that water allocation. You can read some of those caveats above. His presumption was that since we can make the laws we could do what we wanted in this matter and that would be the end of it.
In preparing myself for the conversation, on this topic, that I had with Mr. Fidler I sought legal opinion on just what could be done and what could not be done and the reasons why. After reviewing the results from legal challenges resulting in law suits across the country I felt I could address this matter with some certainty.
In most cases the justification to bring public water into non-public water areas is stated as being in the interest of public health. The legal failure of this arguement is that if the need for public water is to serve a public institution,in the interest of public health, how do you define and control what is a public institution.
If a government entity was to run public water outside it’s designated service area to address health concerns at one “public institution” why shouldn’t it be supplied to all “public institutions” outside the service area. Shouldn’t the water go to churches, private schools, elder care centers, day care centers, group homes, etc. All of these institutions would have legal standing to seek the same water benefit on the grounds of their individual health concerns.
The second consideration is how do you get the water to the site in question? Obviously you have to run the pipes through some property owners lands. This requires an easement. The price and conditions of that easement have to be negotiated. Most often a condition for allowing the use of a property owners land is that they get the right to tap into the water supply. So now we have all instutions requesting the right to have public water and we have all the property owners along the route of the water lines stating their case to be allowed to tap into the supply. Fighting those cases in court can be very expensive and are not often won.
The simplistic notion, that since the County Council makes laws, it can just make a law that permits public water to go to institutions where the Council wants it to go is unrealistic and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the difficulties involved with this matter.
Good morning Dick. Thanks for the comments. Two items to further clarify. First, you neglected to recall that my idea pertaining to the extension of public water to public school sites and/or institutions was specifically pertaining to such uses that were entirely funded by local authorities, their bonds, or capital allocation. That’s the key difference. I didn’t investigate it and I’m not an attorney or legal specialist. I researched what others in this nation had done or were working on and tried to create a possible solution if things got worse. I agree, one could argue on the basis of “public uses.” But, public uses that were fully funded by Local authority? That might be a different story. It would make no sense to create such legislation and allow private churches, day care centers, or adult centers access to that extended water service. Bottom line is, if it it was badly needed and strongly wanted, we could make it happen. The good news, and I know you agree with me on this, is that the issue that was genesis of this idea (MTBE at FHES) has subsided and the solution we put in place is working.
Second, your right. I don’t have all the information, all the facts. I lack the intellegence on how to be political. Frankly, I never had the patience for it. Us simple, common sense folks tend to ask the “What ifs” and the “how to’s”. I always had the curiosity to look for the opportunity, not reiterate what’s wrong in one’s position, comments, or argument.
Dick with regards to the new school, when this comes to fruition, what do you think about the efforts to limit the IAC involvement given that local monies will be the sole source for funding this school? Is there a way to limit their role in an effort to expedite design, approvals, construction, etc.? It would be a shame to see this go beyond a Fall, 2012 delivery. You would agree, that would be a welcomed change! I recall that several counties had started to ask the same question. Larry’s right, the kids would continue to lose if this drags out.
All the best Dick. I wish you and the Council the best in making the final decision on what direction to take. With the Board making its decision and the CE doing the same, its your checkbook that appears to be making the final decision. It’s not a simple issue. Good luck.
Just a quick question. Were Mr. Fidler’s children students at Forest Hills Elementary when all of the water problems were happening?
Yes, they were. My youngest son is still there and my wife is a substitute teacher there on a longterm basis, right now.
Wow, Mr Fidler, I guess trying to question welfare and health of children means your are bad!!!! Thank you so much for the time you gave and researching our concerns. When the board of ed wanted a new pretty building, I do not remember having such debates. But it is ok for kids in our community to not have AC and heat in their schools, or have to be taught in trailers or cramped with 30 kids in a class. When a school is having continual MTBE problem and the filter system wasn’t working properly, thats ok too cause they are just kids. I bet the council people have nice private offices, with AC and heat, and are not asked to drink or use anything that has been contaminated with a cancer causing agent. They probably have a water coolers or bottled water served daily. Mr Fidler, you have been condemned for caring about our kids and trying to make a difference and mean while the same old politicians ignore our families. I think people need to start to get more involved and realize who we are voting for. For our kids, the good ole boys need to go!!!!
Tom… you forgot to add, that your kids were in the school and you had to hear from all of us parents and staff complaining all the time. Thank again for the time and effort you gave!!!
Don’t make the assumption that anyone thinks kids should be drinking contaminated water or that parents shouldn’t advocate for their kids. I just asked a question.
My comments were directed more at Mr Slutzskys response and the county council. I do not think any parent would be an advocate for this but unfortunately
the politicians feel different.
WOW, I watch almost all of the HCPS board meeting on HCPS.ORG, ever since Tom was president, and you will NEVER see these type of discussions or debates. Tom, I could see you frustration and almost can see the reason why you decided to step down, politicians like Dick don’t care much about kids and you can tell by what is being covered up. USA is right; people need to start to get more involved and realize who we are voting for. For the kids, the good ole boys need to go. I give credit to the Dagger for making much of what needs to be heard public.This is TRULY HCPS job to get the word out to the parents. This is why I truly think the board meeting have such a lack of attendance, who wants to sit around listening to BS for 2 or 3 hours. I am SO surprised to see Dick Slutzkiy comment on this, Tom must of touch a nerve.
[sarcasm on]
Yeah, Councilman Slutzky has NEVER done anything for the students in Harford County!
[sarcasm off]
It would be interesting to see if David Craigs lifelong buddy Clarkie has any property around Campus Hills that he wants to develop!!!
Everyone is right the only ones that loses here is the students, much like everything else involving hcps.
The bottom line is that building a school at Campus Hills is fiscally irresponsible. We need to hold our politicians responsible, remember this at election time!!!
outsider, I have to correct the record with regard to the reason for Slutzky’s comment on this story.
When I read Tom Fidler’s comments about a public water line for FHES, I remembered that the issue had also been raised by a PTA representative at the meeting. My notes were sketchy but seemed to indicate that the Council had determined that it was” impossible to guarantee” (that’s how my notes read) that such a water line could not be tapped into by other users. But I didn’t have any supporting details. So I asked Councilman Slutzky for clarification.
Rather than relay the information he provided in a comment of my own, I asked him to consider sharing it directly with our readers.
Outsider,
I was going to stay quiet on this discussion, but you “touched a nerve with me”. As a graduate of AHS over 30 years ago, I watched as Coach Slutzky taught and coached hundreds of children. He cared about them, not only academically and athletically, but he cared about them as young people. He taught principles such as integrity and responsiblity. He led many boys to state championships in wrestling and much of that was due to the fact that they wanted to do it for “Coach”. They loved and respected him.
Councilman Slutzky has contined to practice what he preaches. He approaches his job as councilman with integrity and researches all issues with a thoroughness that is exemplary. He will not be bought and once he makes a decision based on his investigation, he will not be swayed.
I do not mind people expresssing their opinions on the issues, but please do not question Councilman Slutzky’s concern for our children.
Outsider, let me be the first to say that Dick has been a key part to many of HCPS’s initiatives. He’s a good guy. Yes, we have our difference of opinions, but, I’ve always trusted that his desire was to improve our schools. The “coach” in him can make him stubborn at times, but its fine. The political side of this has always concerned me. We all have our issues.
I apologize to you Tom and PWH and anyone else I may have offended; I am not familiar with Dick Slutzky. I didn’t mean to offend anyone concerning Richards’s record to the community. That is awesome Dick has been focused when it comes to the kids of HCPS. From what you both are saying concerning his past he seems to be a great person of the community; but politically, Dick is a politician now, not a coach. So please forgive me for getting excited over the topic, when it come to politician and the community, kids, family, or just someone to see eye to eye with, politicians always in my eyes lose focus, no matter what the subject is. And people seem to follow politician because they are the ones in control. I can respect Mr. Slutzky’s past history with HCPS as a coach and what he has done, but the work is far from over. My people in Hartford County have done and are doing for their community, Mr.; Slutzky is not the only one. He is not HCPS, he is part of HCPS. I ask DIck and the rest of the council remember when they were coaches, teachers, parents, bus drivers, babysitters, etc., a time when they said to themselves they want to make a change…I ask them to stop having emotions of a politician and have the same heart they had when they were “coach”. Again, I didn’t mean to offend ANYONE… Politics to me seem to have their own language . . . is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. I am sure “coach” once felt the same way before he became a politician.
They don’t lose focus wnen it’s comes to makeing money.
LOL, vietnam vet; I did say no matter the subject didn’t I…LOL you got me!
P.S. Thanks for fighting for this country!
We need to build a school – all the who said what and when needs to stop. All of my neighbors have HS and College aged kids and guess who is buying these 15-20 year old homes? People with babies, and elementary school aged children such as myself. I live in the PMES district and am donating my time to the redistricting committee and my PTA.
The debate and power playing is a disgrace. Let’s get to work on a new school and put our pride and hurt feelings aside – that is to the gentlemen in all 3 county organizations- CC, BOE and County Executive’s office. Thank you.
Outsider I think you’ spoke very well. I’am being typically Me. old hatefull and Grouchy’ I accept your thank you for serving.
Gary Owen & Semper- Fi
If anyone has not seen the March 9th board meeting, Please goto:
http://media.hcps.org/hcpsmedia/video/BOEMeetings/BOEMeeting(3-9-09).wmv
I give praise to Ruth Rich for venting her concerns; as she sit in that meeting and vent the TRUTH, you have “Coach” Richard Slutzkiy smiling in the back. PMES district need this school! Dicks rebuttal to Tom give no reason for this and the community should DEMAND a reason! TODAY! No YESTERDAY!!!! Tom, BOE have done the studies and have answers to all questions. People sit here and praise Richard for his past but what is he doing today??? He is making a community very angry, and all he can do is laugh. I ask people to serious watch this taping, then vent to to BOE, and to Dick how you feel! SO MUCH MONEY HAS BEEN WASTE ALL READY ON DESIGN ALONE! The facts are un-emotions for why this school should be built. I should of waited till Monday to watch this video because Dick has screwed up my Friday!
Did the camera show what Mr. Slutsky was doing in the back of the room are you just taking Robin Rich’s word for what she thought he was doing? There was a gentleman who apparently was sitting behind him at that meeting who got up at the County Council meeting and said he was stunned by the “hubris” that came from the Board.
Last time I checked, the Council has to be involved with the financial decisions of the Board of Education. If this is a case where the taxpayers are going to have to pay a lot more money to build this school on Schuck’s Road, then why are we doing it. The road improvements alone are going to be extremely expensive and no one seems to know for sure what the situation is with the water in that area.
The other school site was ready as another reader already pointed out so why did this other site suddenly need to come first? I guess it is a matter of opinion which solution is better but if Campus Hills is going to cost a lot more money (money was already spent at other site) and push back the timeline, there really needs to be a compelling reason why it has to be so.
The cockiness that I have seen thus far is not coming from BOE but Mr. Dick Slutsky. I am sorry the well respected gentleman, whoever he is, sitting behind Dick wasn’t able to make the 5 o clock news to vent his issues toward BOE.
The case had been made, the reason why Schuck’s Road was the chosen for location was because that is where the kids are; this whole thing, believe or not is about kids. I am starting to come to the realization that there is a great majority of people really don’t care for kids much. I guess it bothers me because kids are long term when it comes to future. Uneducated kids = crime and war. Educated kids = Growth with bright future for the state, for the country. Baltimore City is a prime example. All of this is about kid’s education, and for them to get the proper education you need proper environment. I know this is 101 but I feel we always need to go back to this to answer the question of why we need to do this. We cannot hold a torch to light another’s path without brightening our own.
Education costs money, but then so does ignorance. It is so sad to think when the discussion of money and saving tax payer dollars, we are so fast to jump and cut from our kids. Tax payer money most likely will pay for road improvements, isn’t that what taxpayer money is for? And the fact is yes we DO know for sure what the situation is with the water in that area, SEVERAL test have been done to prove that. It is funny you ask the questions you are unsure of, but as a taxpayer it doesn’t bother you don’t have the answer to the questions you ask. As a taxpayer, NOTHING should be held private, it should be public knowledge; does that make sense? Why should tax payer be so content with not knowing the facts but be so quick to jump to the side of a man or a council that is private with your taxpaying dollars? Power is a funny thing; I have questions that are not being answer on one end one the spectrum… SO if I decide to not pay taxes in something I don’t believe in OR something I have no information about, then we goes to jail. But it is ok for me to pay tax dollars and councils can have private meeting with my tax dollar. I know I am repeating myself but sometimes it is the only way. Some people can only remember or have a hard time letting go Dick’s coaching record and what he did for kids in 1979 when times were much different. Dick is not God; there are many people today that are doing what Dick has done. Plus people are trusting Dick; how do you trust someone that is private with your money, to me that is” hubris”. If Dick has a great reason for why this school should not be built, he needs to come to the table like the rest of the hard workers in the community and explain why. BOE yes may have issues in certain departments but I have to give them thumbs up on this situation in questioning Dick for they’re our voice at this present time. Dick doesn’t seem to be listening to the rest of the community. I think all the people are asking at this present time is answers. Where is his studies, where is his rebuttal to what the BOE is putting out to the public? If he is the person paying for all this, then I will keep my mouth shut. But my message to Richard is, this is not game “Coach” he is playing with real taxpayer money, not points on a scoreboard.
Just this morning I see a report on the news of who the owner of the Baltimore Orioles wants to save Preakness, a once a year event that people get tore up at and end up in jail (great entertainment by the way) :-). But when it comes to the future of our kid and education, they very first group to take the fall nationwide. From what I know, China would never do that, and look who we are borrowing money from. That just is just not fair; that is like leaving a baby on a door step far as I care. The Orioles’ money is private money so they will do what he pleases with it. But in this situation we are talk about taxpayer dollars, a long term investment for this state, we are talking about kids! I don’t mind paying taxes to improve our kid’s education; even if I have to pay to improve the roads around it. Right now, we already spent a lot of money on this project, money wasted on design alone, it is not cheap. To take political power and just put a stop to project, that is need, is a total waste of my taxpayer dollar. They should take that same power and do some good with it instead of fighting a whole community full of kids.
Outsider:
Sounds like you have a personal vendetta against Mr. Slutsky. He is not acting on his own in this project. The whole entire Council is questioning this but he and Mr. Boniface are the two representatives for this particular issue. The report
from the Council is available online.
I don’t think anyone disagrees that a new school is needed. One of the big problems and concerns in this county has always been the issue of long term planning. Because this school site is outside the development envelope, it does full under the purview of the Council and brings up other financial burdens. Towson University is planning to expand there too so it sounds like there needs to be a comprehensive look at traffic and costs to various parties (that issue is in the report the Council presented).
Are there really more students living near the Campus Hills site?
Oh but the county is concerned about our kids. They already have helped fund “turf fields” for sports and have agreed to help with some more. Isn’t that were our priorities are??? No schools, heat or AC…, we can have turf!!!! LOL
Usa you’ miss understand. Harford county is a sport’s minded community. Aberdeen has a sports Stadium. build it and they will come. well they did’nt and now it’s a tax payer’s night mare.
North Harford High has Artificial turf. but North Harford middle school has Mildew issue’s peeling paint. Heating problem’s etc.
The power’s that be are more concerend about sport’s. Nine time’s out ten those who have the clout to get Artificial turf. have a child in sports.
Hopefully the turf was worth the waste in money. The deer are doing there thing on it at night. at North Harford may be they have the right idea.
And Fallston has turf and I hear BelAir is getting it too. My kids are all athletes
and have been on these fields.They are not all that!!!! If you only could take the money the county donates to turf and add it up, WOW !! Maybe we could build another school, add heat and AC to others and parents wouldn’t have to supply the schools with everything from tissues, baggies and pencils. I think you are right, it is all who you know in the good ole boy political circle.
Outsider,
How ironic that one of the reasons that Councilman Slutzky was asked to investigate this situation is that the council realized that they need to protect the “real taxpayer money”. Have you read the entire report?
I also wish to direct your attention to the indepth and well-thought our list of questions that Councilman Slutzky prepared for the BOE concerning the CSSRP. It can also be found under the “Documents” section of the Council’s webpage. It was ONLY because Councilman Slutzky cares so much about the students of Harford County that he took his time to express his concerns and questions about the CSSRP. He even made realistic and constructive suggestions as to how improvements could be made. But in their typical fashion, the BOE blew him off. They did the same thing with the paid consultant’s report. It has quietly been shoved under the table.
I am grateful that the Council is not a puppet to the County Administration or the BOE. That is the way that government should work.
PWH:
I agree. I have read the entire report and Mr. Slutsky has done a great job in reporting the facts and not just shooting from the hip. The justification he provides far outweighs any info provided by the BOE. But basically they did not provide any backup. The Red Pump school could have been under construction–NOW, however, Campus Hills became the sweetheart and I would not be surprised it was because the county could wait a couple years before providing the funding. Kudos to the County Council, now move on BOE, quit wasting time, swallow your pride and build the elementary school–NOW
I would like to see a cost assessment for this ” TURF”‘ did You notice? Bel air’s new High school will be fashioned after Aberdeen & patterson mill. Aberdeen’s gym was built to low. patterson mill is running rampant. with construction problem’s.
Job security for contractors. or until the taxpayers money run’s out.
Well I Did get a cost estimate for this Artificial ” Turf ” and I hope it’s wrong’ $ 800,000 Dollar’s installed. and then require’s special maint. now there is a waste of tax payer’s money.
Just to be the devil’s advocate, Viet Nam Vet. Maintaining turf may be less expensive than planting, watering, mowing, replanting, etc. Teams also get longer seasons and more teams can use it because the football teams won’t be quite as protective of “their” fields getting messed up when other teams play on them when they are wet. Fewer games are cancelled, etc. I have no idea what the life of a field is as far as replacement. I am sure that HCPS has done all that research. Ha.
I do think that your $800K figure is probably right because I think when the private schools fund raise for a turf field the goal is about $1,000,000 and that is with no track around the field and put in place where a grass playing field had existed.
I think that fact we are in a recession. we could resort back to the old ”Mud” games that were so popular. for a lot less money.
Vet – the latest cost estimate I could find from HCPS for artificial turf was just under $700,000 for the new field at Edgewood HS. Added to that would be ongoing maintenance costs which can be less than grass (or mud!), but also have to be balanced with repair/replacement costs, which depend on the quality and the life expectancy of the field. On the other hand, the fields can be more durable and used much more often as Sinne Cal pointed out.
The BOE did get a presentation a few years back on artificial turf fields, but darned if I can find it in my files and I couldn’t find the presentation on the HCPS web site either. I’ll keep trying.
The County Exec. was planning to put in one artificial turf field per year in our public high schools. I wonder whether that plan is still on track (oops, no pun intended.)
Thank’s Cindy I just think it’s a sense less waste of money’ when it could certainly be used for better purpose’s. there’s a freeze on hireing at HCPS to hell with what’s important. Maintenance etc.
Rumor has it there intending, to shift custodian’s from school to school as needed to prevent hireing any more. the powers that be get big’er & big’er no shift changes expected there.
It’s a don’t call me attitude. just pass the donut’s.
I don’t know the criteria for getting a turf field but Patterson Mill didn’t get one. Is it because they are a 1A school and therefore not considered for a turf field? Doesn’t make sense to me.
Also the local rec councils contribute to the upkeep and costs of many of the fields in the county. There is a real premium for field usage in this county so whatever can be preserved and used the most frequently should be. Howard County uses Bermuda Grass which seems to be cheaper and better to play on. Harford County always seems to be behind in such things. People who know a lot about fields and such are the bus drivers who take the kids to sporting events. I’ve learned quite a bit from talking to them.
It may be that the upfront cost is more but the long term cost is less.
There is no real criteria for Turf. 4 years ago Aberdeen and Harforf tech gave a proposal to the Board regarding turf fields and how they could be paid for. The answer that was given was no. 2 years later, NH and other schools are celebrating thier new turf fields. It has nothing to do with size of the school.
Harford Tech does have artificial turf in their new stadium. I think it’s only fair that they should have been one of the earliest implementations, since they put up with inferior athletic fields for too many years. It seemed like the board never realized that Tech was actually a real high school, so it was surprising to see such an improvement to those substandard facilities.